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Sex-ed protesters plan to keep kids home from school Tuesday
Sun, 2015-09-06 20:25
#1
Sex-ed protesters plan to keep kids home from school Tuesday
Sun, 2015-09-06 20:33
#2
Power to the people. The people are always right. Ignorance is bliss and must be fought for.
Sun, 2015-09-06 20:33
#3
The new curriculum includes teachings on same-sex relationships, consent, online bullying and sexting. Students will also learn about masturbation, gender expression and contraception.
Evidently, kids shouldn't know about any of these things until it's too late.
"As a parent, I had a whole speech prepared about how both the birds and the bees are sinners who should burn in hell for all eternity -- what right does our public education system have to screw that up?????"
Tue, 2015-09-08 11:16
#4
I hope and believe that these benighted protestors are only a small minority of the parents in my neighbourhood.
Tue, 2015-09-08 11:21
#5
I think it's ok to keep the kids at home, as long as they home-school them.
Tue, 2015-09-08 11:32
#6
Timebandit
What quality and level of education will they get if they do homeschool?
Tue, 2015-09-08 11:39
#7
I think it's ok to keep the kids at home, as long as they home-school them.
With parents having to ensure the same mandatory sex education curriculum is taught? Bit of an ick factor involved for sure, but hey.
Tue, 2015-09-08 11:44
#8
I think it's ok to keep the kids at home, as long as they home-school them.With parents having to ensure the same mandatory sex education curriculum is taught? Bit of an ick factor involved for sure, but hey.
Exactly what I had in mind - with labs in the parents' bedrooms, or inviting in guest lechers if required.
Tue, 2015-09-08 14:57
#9
Thorncliffe Park school half empty amid sex-ed protest.
Principal Jeff Crane had expected 1,460 students at his school, which offers Grade 1 through Grade 5. Instead, 781 showed up as classes resumed on Tuesday.Parents instead took their kids to the park behind the school, where volunteers split them by grade and taught math and other subjects in the morning.
Crane called the situation “unprecedented” and said at one point in the morning, a line-up formed outside the school, near Don Mills Rd. and Overlea Blvd., where parents handed in different form letters notifying that their children would be absent from school until further notice.
Crane said if enrolment doesn't go back to normal levels by the end of the month he is looking at "significant cuts" to his 89-member teaching staff.
Tue, 2015-09-08 19:45
#10
good thing the weather is great what are they gonna do when it rains and snows?
home schooling.....now there's a topic
Tue, 2015-09-08 22:02
#11
This is bullshit, the provincial government should say no exceptions, no pulling your kid out of sex ed class, religious rights is no excluse to deny your child a full education, they right to access to facts trumps your desire to brain wash your childern. I support religious freedom, including wearing burqas, but this is a step too far.
Tue, 2015-09-08 23:15
#12
religious rights is no excluse to deny your child a full education, they right to access to facts trumps your desire to brain wash your childern.
And they're not even exclusive of one another. Parents still have the vast majority of the week to ensure their kids know it's "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve".
I read, in one article today, of a principal who had to accomodate a parent who didn't want their child to learn about PUBERTY.
Sure, we all love surprises, but that's right up there with insisting your kid can't read Charlotte's Web because you would prefer they never learn that animals die. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
Tue, 2015-09-08 23:35
#13
i thought Ontario was the bastion of coolness, progressiveness and worldly sophistication? no?
Wed, 2015-09-09 00:23
#14
Ignore what they say about your province, quizzical. YOU'RE COOL TOO.
Wed, 2015-09-09 09:18
#15
i thought Ontario was the bastion of coolness, progressiveness and worldly sophistication? no?
Given that Ontario elected a majority Liberal government last year, I'd say we're a bastion of something, but definitely not coolness.
Thu, 2015-09-10 01:25
#16
I think that if the new curriculum were somehow MORE cool, MORE progressive or MORE worldly, it would only be meeting with MORE objection from the same backwards parents.
Thu, 2015-09-10 02:09
#17
Even if it included lessons on tantric sex?
Fri, 2015-09-11 11:53
#18
This is interesting. From CBC...
Wynne said parents have the option of pulling their kids from classes on the days the controversial elements of the curriculum are taught.
I seem to recall that when Alberta passed a law giving parents the right to opt-out of having their kids attend classes where "controversial" topics were discussed, there was a fair bit of consternation among progressives about this. Something about pandering to religious bigotry, etc.
Apparently, though, in Ontario, parents enjoy this right as a matter of default. And, in case they don't know that, the premier will remind them of it just to make sure.
Fri, 2015-09-11 13:08
#19
Timebandit
When the no-sex-ed-ers talk about the new curriculum, it's couched in terms of their children, but the reality is that they don't want anyone's children being taught clear, accurate or detailed sex ed. The other kids will pass on the knowledge and they don't want that, either.
Fri, 2015-09-11 13:47
#20
When the no-sex-ed-ers talk about the new curriculum, it's couched in terms of their children, but the reality is that they don't want anyone's children being taught clear, accurate or detailed sex ed. The other kids will pass on the knowledge and they don't want that, either.
That may be. However, when the issue was opting-out in Alberta, it didn't seem to matter whether or not they were trying to extend it to all kids. The mere fact of their wanting to withdraw their own kids was considered bad enough.
But, it now appears, at least in Ontario, you CAN in fact withdraw your kids from sex-ed class, and the premier will even advise you to do so if you don't like what's being taught. And no one seems to consider this remarkable.
Fri, 2015-09-11 13:55
#21
In the case of Alberta, it was probably just assumed that the dissenters were white, Christian, Harper-lovin' holy rollers.
Evidently in Toronto the dissenters are mostly Muslim. Some very conservative Catholics too, but a number of articles have noted, for example, the distribution of disinformation pamphets written in Arabic. That makes the target audience pretty clear.
Fri, 2015-09-11 16:04
#22
When the no-sex-ed-ers talk about the new curriculum, it's couched in terms of their children, but the reality is that they don't want anyone's children being taught clear, accurate or detailed sex ed. The other kids will pass on the knowledge and they don't want that, either.
I think this is a key point. Opting out, although not optimal, isn't all that damaging as long as a good majority of parents opt in. The opted out kids will be told fairly accurately by their peers what was taught in class, so the damage will be minimal.
Fri, 2015-09-11 16:13
#23
Apparently, I have to stand corrected. The opt-out option in Ontario is NOT a matter of default. It is actually enshrined in the law...
Fri, 2015-09-11 16:27
#24
When the no-sex-ed-ers talk about the new curriculum, it's couched in terms of their children, but the reality is that they don't want anyone's children being taught clear, accurate or detailed sex ed. The other kids will pass on the knowledge and they don't want that, either.
I think this is a key point. Opting out, although not optimal, isn't all that damaging as long as a good majority of parents opt in. The opted out kids will be told fairly accurately by their peers what was taught in class, so the damage will be minimal.
I don't know about that. From K to 12, I think the amount of time I spent talking with my peers about classroom lessons, OUTSIDE OF THE CLASSROOM, could be tallied in minutes. And about 90% of that would have been for English and Social Studies, because I personally found those subjects interesting, and so did my friends. Math and science, I spent almost no time talking about.
Despite going to a Catholic school, we were given fairly comprehensive lessons on how various contraceptives worked. I don't recall tracking down any opted-out kids in order to give them the lowdown on condoms and IUDs. And I doubt many of my peers did either.
The only time I remember talking about any subject that I lacked a recreational interest in was when studying for tests. But, if kids have been opted-out of a class on religious grounds, I would assume they're not taking the tests.
Fri, 2015-09-11 16:42
#25
And in case anyone was doubting my recollection that there was more outrage about opt-out laws in Alberta...
http://rabble.ca/babble/western-provinces/education-be-optional-alberta
Somce choice commentary...
...and education clearly loses to the fascist KKKulture of Albertan KKKonservatism.
KKKoming soon to a province near you.
Looks like that province was Liberal Ontario!
Fri, 2015-09-11 16:58
#26
I'd like to offer just a bit of a different perspective on this. I'm pretty familiar with this neighbourhood. There's a huge Afghan population, mostly quite recently arrived. Also, there's a disproportinate number from the Kandahar region, which is a bit like saying they're sort of from the sticks, for whatever that observation is worth. Also, I'm pretty sure from my experience that more of them have PTSD than not. They left because they had to. They are in such a different world they might as well have landed in OZ. They are also scared. Someone has been circulating misinformation, and there's little to counter it.
As with any newcomer population, they're terrified for their kids losing values and traditions which they have depended on for generations. It is very common for the immediate next generation to be somewhat stressed by this, but to manage and acclimatise.
This is not a situation to be handled with a stick. People with credibility should meet with these parents and really help them to feel listened to. compromises may be necessary in some situations. I mean listened to, and not lectured to. This can only be addressed over a lot of cups of green tea. (It's not like anyone hasn't figured out how to mastubate without it being on a school curriculum. I was schooled by nuns during those formative years.) Remember, asking this particular population to send their kids off to be exposed to what they believe is going on is a pretty huge ask. This is seriously a situation which needs to be handled with a great sense of diplomacy, understanding, and ensuring these parents are treated with respect, and feel they have been treated that way. And like I said it may involve compromise and a longer timeline.
Just to add, I know lots of high Muslim populations in Scarborough where in the local schools this is simply not an issue. Thorncliffe Park is a delightful, fascinating and oddly unique little nook of Toronto. I like everyone I have met from there.
Fri, 2015-09-11 16:58
#27
Apparently, I have to stand corrected. The opt-out option in Ontario is NOT a matter of default. It is actually enshrined in the law...
If it means that Ontario can spend money on textbooks or gym equipment instead of fighting long, drawn-out lawsuits then I think it's a reasonable compromise. And I don't see reminding parents of their right to opt their children out of planned lessons as encouragement to do so as much as it's a gentle reminder this if this curriculum is a problem for some parents then it's THEIR problem to fix, not the government's and not the school board's.
Accomodation for opt-outs will vary from school board to school board, but apparently some schools are already making parents aware that if they opt their child out of a lesson then the onus will be on them to come to school and get their child -- the school doesn't have the necessary resources to supervise them.
And apparently schools boards are also resisting demands that all sex-ed material be covered on one or two specific days -- which would be convenient for parents who wish to opt their child out -- instead any materials in the curriculum could be covered at any time, or even made part of other curriculum materials. So, too bad, so sad.
Fri, 2015-09-11 17:20
#28
fabulous old goat i hope someone out there hears you!!!!
Fri, 2015-09-11 17:33
#29
@OG: thanks for an interesting, ground-level counterpoint. But...
Remember, asking this particular population to send their kids off to be exposed to what they believe is going on is a pretty huge ask.
This is kind of one of my own sticking points with regard to all of this. Specifically, if these parents were reacting to what's ACTUALLY in the curriculum, and if this reaction was in good faith, I'd be very much more inclined to see it as you do.
But the curriculum is out there, and can be viewed by anyone who feels they have a stake in it. Despite this, I really get the sense from what I've read -- which includes parents' thoughts and comments -- that some of them seem to WANT to believe that their 12 year old is going to have a "masturbation project", or that their kids are going to be encouraged to have anal sex.
In this regard, it seems very much like the anti-vaccination movement, who are entirely dependent on deliberate misinformation.
I get what you're saying about "people with credibility", but at what point is there any onus on parents to actually look at the real curriculum, rather than losing their wig over what some anonymous pamplet tells them?
Fri, 2015-09-11 17:45
#30
Depends on language skills likely most of these people have English as a second or third langauge. OG, if your demographics are correct then maybe a few well written pamphlets in Pashto and Farsi explaining the facts and debunking the homophobic rumours would help.
Fri, 2015-09-11 18:32
#31
Sat, 2015-09-12 11:07
#32
Apparently, I have to stand corrected. The opt-out option in Ontario is NOT a matter of default. It is actually enshrined in the law...If it means that Ontario can spend money on textbooks or gym equipment instead of fighting long, drawn-out lawsuits then I think it's a reasonable compromise. And I don't see reminding parents of their right to opt their children out of planned lessons as encouragement to do so as much as it's a gentle reminder this if this curriculum is a problem for some parents then it's THEIR problem to fix, not the government's and not the school board's.
Accomodation for opt-outs will vary from school board to school board, but apparently some schools are already making parents aware that if they opt their child out of a lesson then the onus will be on them to come to school and get their child -- the school doesn't have the necessary resources to supervise them.
And apparently schools boards are also resisting demands that all sex-ed material be covered on one or two specific days -- which would be convenient for parents who wish to opt their child out -- instead any materials in the curriculum could be covered at any time, or even made part of other curriculum materials. So, too bad, so sad.
Oh yeah, you can make a respectable case for allowing opt-outs. My observation was just that it's kinda funny how issues sometimes manage to fly completely under the radar, and other times show up in big flashing red lights. (Or however things appear on a radar.)
Sat, 2015-09-12 12:03
#33
This is not a situation to be handled with a stick. People with credibility should meet with these parents and really help them to feel listened to. compromises may be necessary in some situations. I mean listened to, and not lectured to. This can only be addressed over a lot of cups of green tea. (It's not like anyone hasn't figured out how to mastubate without it being on a school curriculum. I was schooled by nuns during those formative years.)
Okay, so on an issue like mastrubation, we can "compromise", because it's not all that important for masturbation to be on the curriculum anyway.
All well and good, but then it raises the question about why masturbation was EVER placed on the curriculum to begin with, if it's such a trivial topic.
One peculiar thing about these "religious accomadation" debates is how those arguing for an exemption from a requirement suddenly seem to make the discovery that the requirement really wasn't that important in the first place, even though its utter uselessness had gone completely unnoticed prior to the religious objections being raised.
Sat, 2015-09-12 12:51
#34
The government provides information about the new curriculum in Arabic, Farsi and Urdu (as well as Chinese, Simplified Chinese, Dari, Hindi, Korean, Polish, Punjabi, Somali and Tagalog.
Yeah, as you say, on a lot of issues, people believe something because they want to believe it.
It's like the guy at the donut shop, banging on the table and hollering about how immigrants are all on welfare. Even if you show him stats proving that there are far fewer immigrants on welfare than there are Canadian-born white people on welfare, you really think he's gonna say "Holy Cow, I guess I was really wrong about that! I should probably be a supporter of immigration"?
Not likely. In my experience, that kind of person just comes back with "Ya, well I don't care what some Ivory Tower statistics guy sez, did you see the thing on the news about how some dude from Pakistan robbed a liquor store and..."
Sat, 2015-09-12 14:16
#35
I think some of the points of my post my have been somewhat missed. The goal is to have these kids educated in class along with the others. I would like to see this approached in a manner that works. This is not happening. This is far more complicated than having all the pamphlets available also in Pashtu. There are more layers than that.
Re: my point about masturbation; that was more a flippant example than anything else. I never wnt to miss an opportunity to take a shot at those nuns who taght me K to 8.
Sat, 2015-09-12 14:31
#36
DOGS AND CATS DON'T NEED SEX EDUCATION. WHY DO WE?
An interesting choice of example, seeing as most dogs and cats are either spayed/neutered, or else copulate every chance they get starting the minute they reach puberty.
Sat, 2015-09-12 14:32
#37
I think some of the points of my post my have been somewhat missed. The goal is to have these kids educated in class along with the others. I would like to see this approached in a manner that works. This is not happening. This is far more complicated than having all the pamphlets available also in Pashtu. There are more layers than that.
I think the point about the pamphlets wasn't referring to the material used in the classroom, but to the ones used to publicize the contents of the lessons to parents etc. Someone had argued that people would reject the misinformation that's being spread if the government translated the correct information. Magoo responded by pointing out that the information HAS been translated, but(we can presumbaly conclude) the protestors aren't interested in reading it.
As for finding an approach that "works", well, in one of the videos I watched, a protestor was holding up a sign that read DOGS AND CATS DON'T NEED SEX EDUCATION. WHY DO WE? I don't think that is the kind of mentality that's going to be swayed simply by having a more nuanced discussion with an official from the Ministry Of Education.
Sat, 2015-09-12 14:37
#38
DOGS AND CATS DON'T NEED SEX EDUCATION. WHY DO WE?An interesting choice of example, seeing as most dogs and cats are either spayed/neutered, or else copulate every chance they get starting the minute they reach puberty.
Yeah, the sign would have a certain logic if the government had been arguing that we need sex-ed because, otherwise, no one will know how to have sex. In whcih case, the sign would be legitimately rebuting "But dogs and cats can figure it out on their own."
But I'm pretty sure that's not the logic behind sex education in Ontario. (And if it is, it's a pretty big waste of taxpayers money.)
Sat, 2015-09-12 15:52
#39
As for finding an approach that "works", well, in one of the videos I watched, a protestor was holding up a sign that read DOGS AND CATS DON'T NEED SEX EDUCATION. WHY DO WE? I don't think that is the kind of mentality that's going to be swayed simply by having a more nuanced discussion with an official from the Ministry Of Education.
First of all, I guess it's pretty obvious that Charles McVety and his tight ass ilk have their hands all over this. This is merely a complicating factor in a job that needs to be done, and understood as such.
In terms of your quote, in my world this is someone who'se meeting me half way by telling me what they think, so I know what the starting point is, where the bar is set in the task, and what meeting them where they're at, (something that absolutely needs to be understood) is going to look like. I'm using the sign that voice of the darned uses as sort of an example. The sign may very well have been put in this person's hand, and may well not reflect the thoughts of everyone in the community. Start by getting someone's trust, which is not done by government pamphlets, but is done by listening to peoples fears. Listening is best done while not talking, and not under any particular time pressure.
Looking up thread I think there are some who would be more suited in terms of experience and temperment than others. This is not a shot at anyone, but I think a clear fact.
Sat, 2015-09-12 16:05
#40
or else copulate every chance they get starting the minute they reach puberty.
You say that as if it were a bad thing
Sat, 2015-09-12 16:33
#41
alan smithee
We had sex education in grade school taught by the school's nurse. And that was the '70's. Why is it a big deal in 2015? Maybe these parents are in need of an educational program. They don't sound like the brightest bulbs in the lamps.
Sat, 2015-09-12 17:26
#42
Unionist, I take your point, and have no problem changing "any"to "many". Individuals aside, I can think of groups, or communities who have come more due to a pull factor, than a push factor. Having said that, we are seeing, more and more groups who have had their societies torn apart from under them by western imperialist factors, and and have come here of necessity. I'm not saying that on many levels they're not happy to be here, and are largely appreciative of what this society has to offer, (I do realise my position is weakened by indulging in huge generalizations) but the transition is traumatising and frightening compounded on what their pre arrival experiences have been. I'm just saying in regard to what we've been seeing in Thorncliffe Park, the solutions such as they may be lie a few layers deeper. And yeah, they're being used by a bunch of nasty fundies.
Sat, 2015-09-12 17:27
#43
We had sex education in grade school taught by the school's nurse. And that was the '70's.
I recall it, but I think it was mostly an extension of biology class. Amoeba reproduce by dividing, and humans reproduce when a sperm cell meets an egg cell in the Fallopian tube. I still laugh a little and grimace a little when I remember that day in Grade 5 when all the girls stayed in class to watch a "very special film", and the boys all went to the gym to play crab soccer.
Anyway, I expect that the majority of the opposition to this curriculum is objection to the social components of it -- homosexuality, "sexting", consent and so on.
Sat, 2015-09-12 17:31
#44
We had sex education in grade school taught by the school's nurse. And that was the '70's. Why is it a big deal in 2015? Maybe these parents are in need of an educational program. They don't sound like the brightest bulbs in the lamps.
Alan this is the rockface at which I toil daily. I have gained some understanding of this because over time individuals I've been lucky enough to get to know have been generous enough to be very open about their dreams, hopes and nightmares.
I find your comment to be offensive.
Sat, 2015-09-12 18:06
#45
alan smithee
We had sex education in grade school taught by the school's nurse. And that was the '70's. Why is it a big deal in 2015? Maybe these parents are in need of an educational program. They don't sound like the brightest bulbs in the lamps.
Alan this is the rockface at which I toil daily. I have gained some understanding of this because over time individuals I've been lucky enough to get to know have been generous enough to be very open about their dreams, hopes and nightmares.
I find your comment to be offensive.
How so? By referring to anti-sex ed parents being morons? If that's the case,guilty as charged. But in all seriousness,besides the 'not too bright' comment,I see nothing offensive about my comment.
I've read MUCH worse.
Sat, 2015-09-12 18:12
#46
*sigh*
Sat, 2015-09-12 18:15
#47
alan smithee
I'll ask again. Why are you picking on my comment? Or is it personal?
Sat, 2015-09-12 18:39
#48
It's not personal, I don't know you, and I've been on this board too long to do personal. I don't believe we're understanding eachother. Or at least you're sure not understanding me, and I have no huge problem with that.
Your opinion is what it is. So be it.
Sat, 2015-09-12 19:20
#49
Start by getting someone's trust, which is not done by government pamphlets, but is done by listening to peoples fears.
I suppose the situation is what the situation is, but it's a bit unfortunate that a pamphlet full of facts, produced by the provincial government, can't hope to compete with a pamphlet full of lies tucked under your windshield wiper, produced by "Concerned Parents".
Sat, 2015-09-12 20:45
#50
Oh dear, they come to us from Kandahar, Herat, over IED ridden roads in lawless territories, they come to us from Kurdish enclaves where their friends and neighbours have been shot before their eyes. I have a client who watched her son chopped to pieces before her eyes because whoever did it thought their family was on the wrong side. I have not listened to her so much directly, but I provide secondary trauma support to my Afghan colleage who does work with her, and now carries the images of blood spurting all over the walls. I had a client whos friends were all imprisoned and killed. He was brave enough to be part of a pro democracy movement in Iran shortly after the revolution. No wonder he was diagnosed with a paranoia. When he phoned home they really were listening in. The list goes on.
Yes, it's unfortunate they don't believe a government pamphlet.
For the most part they'll be ok, and the next generation will be fine. Just saying this could be better handled in a way that will work.
Sat, 2015-09-12 21:18
#51
Oh dear, they come to us from Kandahar, Herat, over IED ridden roads in lawless territories, they come to us from Kurdish enclaves where their friends and neighbours have been shot before their eyes. I have a client who watched her son chopped to pieces before her eyes because whoever did it thought their family was on the wrong side. I have not listened to her so much directly, but I provide secondary trauma support to my Afghan colleage who does work with her, and now carries the images of blood spurting all over the walls. I had a client whos friends were all imprisoned and killed. He was brave enough to be part of a pro democracy movement in Iran shortly after the revolution. No wonder he was diagnosed with a paranoia. When he phoned home they really were listening in. The list goes on.
Ok, I'm not dismissing any of that experience. But I'm not clear on its connection to wanting to believe that children will soon be encouraged to have anal sex, because an anonymous pamphlet (or a not anonymous website) says so.
What makes the lies more persuasive than the truth?