Should Alex Johnstone Step Down For Auschwitz Comment

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/09/24/stefan-jonasson-ndp_n_8193280.ht...

Jonasson is a minister in the Unitarian Universalist church, a liberal religious organization that draws on Christian, Jewish, Hindu and other beliefs and also includes agnostics and atheists.

Statements attributed to him, which appear to have been published on social media in 2011 and 2012, showed up on The True North Times, a political website that has pledged to out nine politicians over nine days for comments they have made.

In a religious article, Jonasson condemned Haredim practices such as strict dress codes and segregation of the sexes, writing, "Much like the Taliban and other extremists, the Haredim offer a toxic caricature of faith, at odds with the spirit of the religious tradition they profess to represent."

Other posts show him stating that "the deployment of police is a propaganda tool, not a security measure." He also wrote, "We still have some embarrassingly wealthy people in Manitoba."

NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair told reporters following the leaders' French debate in Montreal on Thursday: "I think that that person clearly recognized that he had said something totally inappropriate and has withdrawn and that's enough."

I think all these resignations are getting out of hand, but the NDP stands behind the guy against gay marriage and abortion likening them to holocast and 9/11 but anyone who says a peep about Israel or the Haredim is a goner?

dp

Never mind that we don't know where she went to school, or whether she was taught that in school (I wasn't)... so what? It shows she is shockingly ignorant on her knowledge of popular history, not that she is anti-Semitic.

Again, I doubt most people here learned about it in school.

 

You'd think Alex would have learned something on the matter from her parents.

In any event, she should consider saying: "Obviously I'm not ready for such high political office. I'll spend some time informing myself about the important things in life, then try again next time."

But it's true, she's not an anti-Semite, like that Winnipeg dude that Mulcair turfed yesterday:

[url=http://members.shaw.ca/smjonasson/]Rev. Stefan M. Jonasson[/url]

 

terrytowel wrote:

What else does she not know?

The distinction between career and service.

 

Re: Jonasson. True that. Not exactly a Unitarian way of looking at someone else's faith.

Regarding Johnstone, I don't think it disqualifies her at all. It is hardly the most shocking display of ignorance I have heard from a politician. And again, I think it is only that it concerns the Holocaust that there is such a reaction. If she didn't know what D-Day was I doubt anyone would have given it a second thought.

I think that speaks more to popular mis-use of that terrible history as a show-stopper, than its actual importance.

 

Unionist wrote:

You'd think Alex would have learned something on the matter from her parents.

In any event, she should consider saying: "Obviously I'm not ready for such high political office. I'll spend some time informing myself about the important things in life, then try again next time."

But it's true, she's not an anti-Semite, like that Winnipeg dude that Mulcair turfed yesterday:

[url=http://members.shaw.ca/smjonasson/]Rev. Stefan M. Jonasson[/url]

 

Sarcasm? Because while it was a little over the top, it's not all that far from the mark.

Not irrelevant, but then we aren't talking about the entire field of history, just one historical point which happens to be a lightning rod. She might also not be aware of what Attica is, or Wounded Knee. But while those events are at least as relevant to her work, no one would call for her resignation if the missed the Jeopardy question on those ones.

And again, those of us of a certain age probably never heard about Auschwitz in school either. I don't think we covered the second world war in any detail at all, actually. I don't think that disqualified any of us from positions of responsibility.

 

The term "Holocaust" isn't as important as her level of awareness about how Germany exterminated Jewish people during the Holocaust. She should step aside if she was unaware that Germany exterminated millions of Jews during the Holocaust. She might be a very decent person but I think that level of ignorance should not be allowed for in a member of Parliament.

JKR wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Not irrelevant, but then we aren't talking about the entire field of history, just one historical point which happens to be a lightning rod. She might also not be aware of what Attica is, or Wounded Knee. But while those events are at least as relevant to her work, no one would call for her resignation if the missed the Jeopardy question on those ones.

And again, those of us of a certain age probably never heard about Auschwitz in school either. I don't think we covered the second world war in any detail at all, actually. I don't think that disqualified any of us from positions of responsibility.

 

A candidate might not be familiar with a specific historical event like Wounded Knee, but I think if they are unaware of something like Indian Residential Schools than they are not up to the task of being a member of Parliament.

But she was aware of concentration camps, just not the name of that particular camp. I was surprised so checked to make sure my daughter (26) knew about it and she was equally astonished that the rep hadn't heard about it but it is not unusual for people to have blanks on common knowledge here and there.

Unionist wrote:

Rev. Jonasson is a progressive scion of the community in Winnipeg - has been for decades. The NDP turfed him because he told the truth about misogynist religious fundies.

Is Jonasson's comparison of the Haredim to the Taliban a fair comparison?

Not to nit-pick about what is the greater display of ignorance, because I have more of a problem with ignorance of the fact our segregated and racist city wouldn't be here had we not been invited by Chief Whitecap, even though that pales in comparison with the global significance of Auschwitz.

What bothers me here is the serious consideration of an abilities test for public office, and the notion that certain people can be deemed not qualified because of their education.

That's a pretty dangerous (and pointless) line to cross for something that really is just a gotcha. That this is about parties feeling embarrassed and squeamish about not doing their due diligence doesn't change the fact that it is ultimately up to the people to decide, and that anyone who meets the basic age and citizenship requirements can run.

One might be the smartest person in the room in terms of booklearning, and still be a sociopathic monster, or dumb as a post.

(cross-posted)

And I'd say any comparison to people who mutilate and murder should be backed up with something solid. Personally, I don't consider anti-Catholic slurs to be valid simply because other Catholics happen to commit horrible acts. Most forms of discrimination use that kind of guilt by association.

Jonasson was way out of line, IMO.

mark_alfred wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Rev. Jonasson is a progressive scion of the community in Winnipeg - has been for decades. The NDP turfed him because he told the truth about misogynist religious fundies.

Is Jonasson's comparison of the Haredim to the Taliban a fair comparison?

He is quoted, without further context that I've seen, as saying: "much like the Taliban and other extremists, the Haredim offer a toxic caricature of faith at odds with the spirit of the religious tradition they profess to represent."

So the particular "comparison" he makes is spot on. I never heard him say, "the Haredim treat women as badly as the Taliban do". But that's the impression left by the scandal-mongers, and of course, by the NDP politburo.

Have you seen what Jonasson has written in response to all this? This is from his Facebook page:

Stefan Jonasson wrote:

Early Thursday, a malicious blog known as "The True North Times" published a post about me with a wilfully misleading and inflammatory headline. A model of gutter journalism, this blog ridiculed some of my past social media posts and sought to create the false impression that I had offered a general indictment of Jewish people when, in fact, I was criticizing the misogynistic behaviour of a particular group of dogmatic believers.

A senior party official called me and intimated that I should withdraw as a candidate. I have complied with his request and resigned as the party’s candidate in Charleswood–St. James–Assiniboia–Headingley.

Needless to say, I'm profoundly disappointed. However, I stand by my criticism of those who oppress women in the name of religion and I'm disappointed that my party chooses not to stand with me. While I understand the party’s desire to keep the focus on its platform and not on distractions, I'm saddened that the party has proven to be timid in the face of specious and misleading reporting.

I fear that we are living in an increasingly Orwellian age. Robust debate about controversial matters is fair game in politics, but political spin that twists differences of opinion into lies is quite another. Character assassination masquerading as reportage is a hideous poison that is destroying our public life and if good people fail to speak up against it, our very democratic institutions will be in peril.

Bravo.

And here's his letter of (coerced) resignation:

Stefan Jonasson wrote:

For the record, here's my letter of resignation, which I submitted this morning to NDP national organizer James Pratt:

Dear James,

This morning I was alerted to a blog post about me with a specious and deceptive headline. The blog post in question is a poignant illustration of the kind of dishonest and malevolent gutter politics that has alienated so many Canadians from participating in the political life of this country.

At this critical juncture in the federal election campaign, I fear that seeking to defend my reputation and position could only be a distraction from waging a successful campaign. It is essential that we defeat the Harper government and replace it with a progressive alternative. I continue to believe that Thomas Mulcair and the NDP offer the best prospect for replacing the current government with one that will pursue policies to improve the lives of Canadians.

Therefore, I am reluctantly resigning as the NDP candidate in Charleswood-St. James-Assiniboia-Headlingley, so that the record of the Conservative government, and not my candidacy, continues to be the focus of attention in my home constituency and across the country. I am disappointed by this turn of events, but I see no reasonable alternative.

I have devoted most of my adult life to public service, including the ministry of a denomination that is committed to freedom, reason, and tolerance in religious matters, so the egregiously misleading attack on me this morning was especially hurtful and underhanded. However, my commitment to broad religious tolerance, the equal rights of women, and the quest for a better, more just world remain unabated.

Stefan

Would you turf Jonasson and keep Johnstone plus the "Christian" minister? My choice is rather simple.

 

Unionist wrote:

mark_alfred wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Rev. Jonasson is a progressive scion of the community in Winnipeg - has been for decades. The NDP turfed him because he told the truth about misogynist religious fundies.

Is Jonasson's comparison of the Haredim to the Taliban a fair comparison?

He is quoted, without further context that I've seen, as saying: "much like the Taliban and other extremists, the Haredim offer a toxic caricature of faith at odds with the spirit of the religious tradition they profess to represent."

So the particular "comparison" he makes is spot on. I never heard him say, "the Haredim treat women as badly as the Taliban do". But that's the impression left by the scandal-mongers, and of course, by the NDP politburo.

Have you seen what Jonasson has written in response to all this? This is from his Facebook page:

Stefan Jonasson wrote:

Early Thursday, a malicious blog known as "The True North Times" published a post about me with a wilfully misleading and inflammatory headline. A model of gutter journalism, this blog ridiculed some of my past social media posts and sought to create the false impression that I had offered a general indictment of Jewish people when, in fact, I was criticizing the misogynistic behaviour of a particular group of dogmatic believers.

A senior party official called me and intimated that I should withdraw as a candidate. I have complied with his request and resigned as the party’s candidate in Charleswood–St. James–Assiniboia–Headingley.

Needless to say, I'm profoundly disappointed. However, I stand by my criticism of those who oppress women in the name of religion and I'm disappointed that my party chooses not to stand with me. While I understand the party’s desire to keep the focus on its platform and not on distractions, I'm saddened that the party has proven to be timid in the face of specious and misleading reporting.

I fear that we are living in an increasingly Orwellian age. Robust debate about controversial matters is fair game in politics, but political spin that twists differences of opinion into lies is quite another. Character assassination masquerading as reportage is a hideous poison that is destroying our public life and if good people fail to speak up against it, our very democratic institutions will be in peril.

Bravo.

And here's his letter of (coerced) resignation:

Stefan Jonasson wrote:

For the record, here's my letter of resignation, which I submitted this morning to NDP national organizer James Pratt:

Dear James,

This morning I was alerted to a blog post about me with a specious and deceptive headline. The blog post in question is a poignant illustration of the kind of dishonest and malevolent gutter politics that has alienated so many Canadians from participating in the political life of this country.

At this critical juncture in the federal election campaign, I fear that seeking to defend my reputation and position could only be a distraction from waging a successful campaign. It is essential that we defeat the Harper government and replace it with a progressive alternative. I continue to believe that Thomas Mulcair and the NDP offer the best prospect for replacing the current government with one that will pursue policies to improve the lives of Canadians.

Therefore, I am reluctantly resigning as the NDP candidate in Charleswood-St. James-Assiniboia-Headlingley, so that the record of the Conservative government, and not my candidacy, continues to be the focus of attention in my home constituency and across the country. I am disappointed by this turn of events, but I see no reasonable alternative.

I have devoted most of my adult life to public service, including the ministry of a denomination that is committed to freedom, reason, and tolerance in religious matters, so the egregiously misleading attack on me this morning was especially hurtful and underhanded. However, my commitment to broad religious tolerance, the equal rights of women, and the quest for a better, more just world remain unabated.

Stefan

Would you turf Jonasson and keep Johnstone plus the "Christian" minister? My choice is rather simple.

 

Now I don't know anything about this guy but given this letter and his eloquent defence I believe the NDP may have thrown an excellent candidate under the bus.

Unionist wrote:

Would you turf Jonasson and keep Johnstone plus the "Christian" minister? My choice is rather simple.

I previously wrote about Johnstone in post # 17.  I don't know much about the "Christian" minister. 

I don't know much about either the Taliban or the Haredim.  But, a quick reading of wikipedia of the two does make me think that Jonasson's parallel is overkill.  I'm leaning to the viewpoint that 6079_Smith_W expressed (post #34, I think).

Ok, I've now found the context of Jonasson's FB post from January 2012. He was commenting on [url=http://world.time.com/2012/01/02/religion-and-sex-in-israel-street-clash... news item[/url], which includes the following:

Quote:

An eight-year-old girl stopped going to school after neighborhood men spat on her and called her a prostitute because even in long sleeves and a skirt her dress was deemed “immodest.” The men were extremist members of the ultra-Orthodox, the fastest-growing segment of Israel’s Jewish population. Known in Hebrew as Haredim, which roughly translates as God-fearing, ultra-Orthodox men are easily recognized by their signature black clothes and headgear (either wide-brimmed black felt or brimless beaver skin) their side locks and their agitation at being seated near women.

Which brings us to a second locus of controversy: Buses segregated by gender. On bus lines serving ultra-Orthodox communities, women ride in the back. Most do so quite happily, but a ruckus often ensues when an outsider climbs aboard and insists on taking a seat up front with the men, as a woman named Doron Matalon did last week. After being called a “shiksa” and “slut,” she summoned police, who arrested a passenger named Shlomo Fuchs. In the shorthand biography of news accounts, the suspect proved representative of his cohort: Fuchs is 45, has 12 children, and no paying job. Instead he studies scripture all day at a yeshiva, or religious college, which entitles him to welfare payments and excuses him from military service.

But because they didn't murder the girl, I guess Jonasson should apologize for his comment - right?

I don't share the fundamental ethical values of the last two posters on this subject. And I'm not really interested in clever semantic debates on the issue. Jonasson is head and shoulders above the pragmatic slavish poll-watchers in the NDP politburo who have no moral bone in their bodies.

 

Too bad. He didn't make the comparison about Obama and Netanyahu, Unionist.

He made it about orthodox believers who, as far as I know, don't engage in stoning, murder, chopping off hands, destroying ancient statues, or any of the other things one thinks of at the mention of the Taliban.

Pestering people while getting on planes, and chucking dirty diapers at people, yes. But even that is only some of them, in certain places.

And again, that letter wasn't an apology at all. It made me have less sympathy for him, frankly.

Ah. I'm a fundamentalist then. Okay.

 

6079_Smith_W wrote:

And again, that letter wasn't an apology at all.

He is accused by the True North Times of being an anti-Semite - and he should apologize?

Tell me this: To whom should he have apologized? To the woman-hating fundamentalists? To Jews like me who consider the Haredi to be worse than the Taliban (because they don't even have the courage to fight against the invaders of their country)? To you? To Mulcair?

 

dp

 

Even observent Orthodox Jews in Israel liken the Haredim to the Taliban:

An observant, Orthodox Jew, Ragen was on the No. 40 bus line, headed to her house near Jerusalem, when an ultra-Orthodox — or Haredi — man told her to move to the back.

Wouldn't you think they of all people have the right to say it? Not to mention secular Jews. So it's commonplace for anyone in Israel to liken the Haredim to the Taliban, but not OK for an NDP candidate in Canada.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7361060

I don't think she should have to resign nor do I think she could not make a good MP. I also do not think it is that surpirsing.

Auschwitz is hugely significant to be sure. But I did not learn about it in school -- even the Holocaust was never mentionned at the school I went to -- at the time I went there. I learned about this from my parents and my own reading.

People should make no assumptions about what she was exposed to. The place and time she went to school could make a difference. The choice of conversation with parents may also. At my age the previous two generations were aware and spoke of this. Alex is younger. Blaming her for something she never heard is unreasonable since it is not a qualification. A person educated in history or even literature should know. What if she was a science student? The reason we want different MPs from different walks of life, ages etc is that what is basic, foundational and obvious to one can be unknown to another.

The reason for the human rights museum, and for the efforts of surivors of the Holocaust is the risk of forgetting -- of never having heard or been exposed to this. I am assuming she has heard of the Holocaust, even if she did not know the name of its most infamous camp.

What does she know or have experienced that others don't know or have not experienced is a valuable question.

She should be concerned that she did not know this. She should question why she did not and we should all question what information people should know to graduate. But I have long ago stopped being surprised about what people do not know. I understand that she has decided to make it her business to learn more and she may well in the course of this develop an insight into how easy it is for future generations not to know things and be all-the-more qualified to bring this experience with her.

This is not a bad opinion or a hostility she had -- this is a lack of exposure to something that actually is essential. It is essential that younger generations fully understand what humans are capable of -- that is how we prevent it happening again. But you educate rather than blame. And if do not judge the intellegence or potential of a person who has not been given certain information. Instead I question the judgement of those who did not share it.

So let her bring back this revelation of somethign she needed to know but did not to her school trustee career if she resumes that -- or to parliament let her bring the knowledge that there is critical history we should all know that many of us do not.

So now, I would not judge her by what she did not know but rather how she reacts to this knowledge and question how she was not exposed to this information.

I will also say that personal stories pass on an oral tradition but this outines a reason why learning history is essential and an exposure to litereature is as well becuase a good exposure to literature would include this.