'Operation Syrian Refugees': Up To 900 A Day To Land in Toronto, Montreal As Early As Dec. 1

139 posts / 0 new

Mon, 2015-11-30 19:07

Pondering

swallow wrote:

Pondering wrote:
What do you imagine would happen if a single refugee executed a terrorist act.

What would happen if my grandmother had wheels?

When did you stop eating off a knife?

-

Even to ask questions like "What do you imagine would happen if a single refugee executed a terrorist act" feeds into an atmosphere of anti-refugee paranoia and racism.

We all know what happens when a man commits a terrorist act. If they are white and Christian or secular, they are a "mental health issue" or a "lone wolf." If a Muslim commits a terrorist act, we need to bomb a country they are not even from. And also, attack some random women wearing scarves or some random Sikh men.

If we were doing real threat asessment rather than pandering to fear, we'd slap 24-hour surveillance on all American men aged 18-30, because they are the highest risk. But we don't. Why is that?

My point is that public reaction would turn strongly against refugees, fair or not. The news out of Europe is making people afraid and the refugees are disproportionately young men. The ease of acquiring fake Serian documents increased concerns and the news that two of the terrorists came in as refugees through Greece made things worse.

The recent attacks against minorities were by ignorant bigots but 54% of Canadians are against taking in the refugees from Syria. Calming fears by differenciating the process by which refugees are selected by Canada from what Europe is experiencing increased support for the refugees overall.

Young single men are being accepted but we know those who are coming have been carefully screened.

I bet support for C 51 increased after Paris. These events are always used to increase security because it makes people more fearful. Telling people they are "profiling" by being suspicious of lone men traveling from the heart of the mid-east turmoil will just lead to them considering you crazy.

Mon, 2015-11-30 22:09

#103

swallow

"The news out of Europe is making people afraid" - I'd suggest that fearmongering, rather than "news," is making people afraid. The news (meaning factual reporting of events) indicates that North Carolina men are far more threatening than Syrian men. The spin (fearmongering) is what's reinforcing people's fears.

I want to hear fact-based words from our PM and leaders. I want to hear the fact-based passion of "a citizen is a citizen."

Mon, 2015-11-30 23:18

#104

Pondering

swallow wrote:

"The news out of Europe is making people afraid" - I'd suggest that fearmongering, rather than "news," is making people afraid. The news (meaning factual reporting of events) indicates that North Carolina men are far more threatening than Syrian men. The spin (fearmongering) is what's reinforcing people's fears.

I want to hear fact-based words from our PM and leaders. I want to hear the fact-based passion of "a citizen is a citizen."

I agree that the fear is irrational. I've said for a very long time that I am much more likely to be hit by lightening than be a victim of terrorism. It would be easy to terrorize us in so many ways. I remember a story a long time ago about two men who were shooting random victims. The shooter was hiding in the trunk and there was a hole he could shoot through. Just calling in random bomb threats to major buildings could cause a lot of disruption and fear. Mailing white powder all over the place. There aren't that many people willing to give up their lives for the cause or even just dedicate their lives. The Boston bombers thought they could get away with it.

Aside from that in Canada it is not that easy to get AK-47s into the country. At least I don't think it is.

We aren't by any means immune from terrorist threats but we are far less likely to get hit by organized attacks like in Paris. If they are going to make the effort to attack North America which is very expensive to do they will aim for the States not Canada even though we have been named as a target. I agree we are more vulnerable to homegrown lone wolf attacks by new converts rather than actual Muslims.

Someone in another thread mentioned the Kadrs but they didn't do anything here. They were in a defensive battle in Afganistan.

Wed, 2015-12-02 22:38

#105

NDPP

Canada To Get 50,000 Refugees By End Of 2016

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/12/02/canada-to-get-up-to-50000-...

Thu, 2015-12-03 08:41

#106

swallow

Still 10,000 fewer refugees than arrived from Vietnam in 1979-80. I'm sure Canada can handle it.

Thu, 2015-12-03 09:17

#107

Paladin1

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/12/02/few-refugees-prepared-to-come-to-ca...

Quote:
OTTAWA -- Only a fraction of the tens of thousands of Syrian refugees whom the United Nations tried to contact over the past month said they were interested in coming to Canada by the end of the year, federal immigration officials revealed Wednesday.

While the low response rate raises questions about why Syrian refugees don't want to travel here, officials said they remain confident about the Liberal government's plan to resettle 25,000 Syrians by the end of February.

The officials' comments came during an off-the-record briefing, the first of what the government says will be a weekly occurrence designed to ensure Canadians are kept up-to-date on the progress and challenges of its Syrian refugee plan.

Officials, who cannot be identified by name, said there had been early progress. Since the Liberal government was officially sworn in and the clock started ticking on its refugee promise on Nov. 3, officials said, 271 Syrians had arrived in Canada. Of those, 208 were privately sponsored, and the remainder had some sort of government involvement.

A further 1,015 Syrian refugees had been approved to come to Canada but hadn't yet arrived, while more than 9,000 applications were being processed. Officials acknowledged that the majority of those applications had been submitted weeks and months earlier.

It turned out that only about 28,000 of those phone numbers actually worked. Even then, only 3,049 agreed to meet with UN officials for an interview. And of those, only 1,801 - or less than five per cent of those the UN initially tried to contact - said they were interested in coming to Canada by the end of the year.

Thu, 2015-12-03 11:35

#108

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

Canada's newfound interest in Syrian refugees is somewhat of a change of heart. People there have probably not had time to consider Canada a place which would welcome them. I'm guessing that when word gets around we'll see more demand.

Thu, 2015-12-03 11:49

#109

pookie

I gotta admit, I kinda love that for a number of Syrian refugees the response is: Meh. Thanks anyway.

Thu, 2015-12-03 12:44

#110

voice of the damned

pookie wrote:

I gotta admit, I kinda love that for a number of Syrian refugees the response is: Meh. Thanks anyway.

I dunno. To me, it doesn't really help with the framing of a sympathetic narrative. For most people, I think the moral imperative to give them refugee status stems from the idea that their lives, or at least their well-being, are in serious peril. But if many of them are seen as just shrugging off a credible offer of refuge, that kinda undermines the whole idea.

Of course, it probably works out better for the government, from a PR perspective, if there are fewer Syrians coming in. A lighter caseload is easier to process, and the Liberals can still say "See? We took in everyone who wanted to come! What great humanitarians we are!!"

Thu, 2015-12-03 12:56

#111

Paladin1

voice of the damned wrote:

I dunno. To me, it doesn't really help with the framing of a sympathetic narrative. For most people, I think the moral imperative to give them refugee status stems from the idea that their lives, or at least their well-being, are in serious peril. But if many of them are seen as just shrugging off a credible offer of refuge, that kinda undermines the whole idea.

Perhaps Canada has less to offer in terms of benefits than some other European countries and they are waiting for a better offer?

Thu, 2015-12-03 13:07

#112

voice of the damned

Paladin1 wrote:

voice of the damned wrote:

I dunno. To me, it doesn't really help with the framing of a sympathetic narrative. For most people, I think the moral imperative to give them refugee status stems from the idea that their lives, or at least their well-being, are in serious peril. But if many of them are seen as just shrugging off a credible offer of refuge, that kinda undermines the whole idea.

Perhaps Canada has less to offer in terms of benefits than some other European countries and they are waiting for a better offer?

Which would kind of belie the notion that they are fleeing for their lives.

Though I suppose that if they know that they are 100% safe from harm in the refugee camps, it would be rational for them to remain there until they find the best country of refuge. But, personally, if I thought that there was even a remote chance that staying in the camps would endanger my life, I wouldn't spend a lot of time debating the comparative merits of the Canadian vs. European welfare systems.

Thu, 2015-12-03 16:36

#113

Pondering

pookie wrote:

I gotta admit, I kinda love that for a number of Syrian refugees the response is: Meh. Thanks anyway.

Me too.

voice of the damned wrote:
I dunno. To me, it doesn't really help with the framing of a sympathetic narrative. For most people, I think the moral imperative to give them refugee status stems from the idea that their lives, or at least their well-being, are in serious peril. But if many of them are seen as just shrugging off a credible offer of refuge, that kinda undermines the whole idea.

While this is true there is another angle. Within the article a woman said she still hoped to return to Syria some day and she said people always love the place where they were born. While that might not be entirely true it is true to some extent. Our northern indigenous people don't want to move south.

The narrative has been that we must limit entry of refugees or we would be over run. Realizing that lots of people don't want to come forces a re-evaluation. Maybe countries should be "adopting" refugee camps and doing a better job of funding them to a much higher standard and working harder towards peace by changing our foreign affairs priorities.

voice of the damned wrote:
Of course, it probably works out better for the government, from a PR perspective, if there are fewer Syrians coming in. A lighter caseload is easier to process, and the Liberals can still say "See? We took in everyone who wanted to come! What great humanitarians we are!!"

It won't be fewer. Out of 4 million we will easily get 50K that want to settle in Canada. Also missing from this discussion is refugees from many other places in the world.

Thu, 2015-12-03 16:47

#114

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
While this is true there is another angle. Within the article a woman said she still hoped to return to Syria some day and she said people always love the place where they were born. While that might not be entirely true it is true to some extent. Our northern indigenous people don't want to move south.

OK, but what does that have to do with settling in Canada (until it's safe to return) versus settling in Germany (until it's safe to return)?

I would agree with VoD. This has the optics of a "drowning" swimmer telling a lifeguard "Oh, no thanks. I was kind of hoping to have my life saved by that CUTE lifeguard...".

Thu, 2015-12-03 17:27

#115

Pondering

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
While this is true there is another angle. Within the article a woman said she still hoped to return to Syria some day and she said people always love the place where they were born. While that might not be entirely true it is true to some extent. Our northern indigenous people don't want to move south.

OK, but what does that have to do with settling in Canada (until it's safe to return) versus settling in Germany (until it's safe to return)?

I would agree with VoD. This has the optics of a "drowning" swimmer telling a lifeguard "Oh, no thanks. I was kind of hoping to have my life saved by that CUTE lifeguard...".

Refugees to Canada aren't coming for temporary refuge. They are landed immigrants expected to stay. The same goes for those treking overland to Germany. It the refugee camps there are many who want to return home or if not stay in a semi-familiar culture.

Imagining myself as a refugee from Canada I would prefer the states or other French/English countries. I'd have a hard time moving permanently to Saudi Arabia or China or India.

Thu, 2015-12-03 17:50

#116

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Refugees to Canada aren't coming for temporary refuge. They are landed immigrants expected to stay.

Are they under any obligation whatsoever to stay?

Are you suggesting that they're probably holding out for a country with some kind of "6 month" time limit, or something like that?

Or are you saying that they'd prefer to remain in a refugee camp somewhere in the Middle East? If so, fair enough. All I'd wonder in that case is how they ended up in any kind of resettlement queue in the first place.

Thu, 2015-12-03 19:48

#117

pookie

voice of the damned wrote:
pookie wrote:

I gotta admit, I kinda love that for a number of Syrian refugees the response is: Meh. Thanks anyway.

I dunno. To me, it doesn't really help with the framing of a sympathetic narrative. For most people, I think the moral imperative to give them refugee status stems from the idea that their lives, or at least their well-being, are in serious peril. But if many of them are seen as just shrugging off a credible offer of refuge, that kinda undermines the whole idea.

Of course, it probably works out better for the government, from a PR perspective, if there are fewer Syrians coming in. A lighter caseload is easier to process, and the Liberals can still say "See? We took in everyone who wanted to come! What great humanitarians we are!!"

I was mostly being facetious. It just gives the lie to the fact that "everyone!!!" wants to come to Canada. For some reason, that tickles me.

I agree with you that it complicates the narrative in an unhelpful way for those trying to motivate public support.

Fri, 2015-12-04 01:07

#118

Pondering

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Refugees to Canada aren't coming for temporary refuge. They are landed immigrants expected to stay.

Are they under any obligation whatsoever to stay?

Are you suggesting that they're probably holding out for a country with some kind of "6 month" time limit, or something like that?

Or are you saying that they'd prefer to remain in a refugee camp somewhere in the Middle East? If so, fair enough. All I'd wonder in that case is how they ended up in any kind of resettlement queue in the first place.

No. It's much more expensive to return from Canada than to return from neighbouring countries or even European countries. For others it's staying with a more familiar culture and language.

Fri, 2015-12-04 04:07

#119

mark_alfred

I imagine that more people would want to go to the States than to Canada. Everyone is rich in the States and they have Mickey Mouse. Canada? What the hell is Canada? Tundra and snow.

Fri, 2015-12-04 11:33

#120

Paladin1

Maybe they're afraid of going to Ontario and having to pay their electricity bill? What was it, overcharged 37 Billion dollars?

Fri, 2015-12-04 11:34

#121

voice of the damned

pookie wrote:

voice of the damned wrote:
pookie wrote:

I gotta admit, I kinda love that for a number of Syrian refugees the response is: Meh. Thanks anyway.

I dunno. To me, it doesn't really help with the framing of a sympathetic narrative. For most people, I think the moral imperative to give them refugee status stems from the idea that their lives, or at least their well-being, are in serious peril. But if many of them are seen as just shrugging off a credible offer of refuge, that kinda undermines the whole idea.

Of course, it probably works out better for the government, from a PR perspective, if there are fewer Syrians coming in. A lighter caseload is easier to process, and the Liberals can still say "See? We took in everyone who wanted to come! What great humanitarians we are!!"

I was mostly being facetious. It just gives the lie to the fact that "everyone!!!" wants to come to Canada. For some reason, that tickles me.

Yeah, that aspect of it WAS pretty funny, especially with all the feel-good nationalist rhetoric coming from the Liberals.

"Canada is back!!" But apparently we hadn't been making that much of an impression before we left.

Fri, 2015-12-04 11:38

#122

voice of the damned

delete

Fri, 2015-12-04 11:39

#123

voice of the damned

Paladin1 wrote:

Maybe they're afraid of going to Ontario and having to pay their electricity bill? What was it, overcharged 37 Billion dollars?

Or they found out they could end up working on a farm in Alberta.

Fri, 2015-12-04 20:06

#124

eastnoireast

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
While this is true there is another angle. Within the article a woman said she still hoped to return to Syria some day and she said people always love the place where they were born. While that might not be entirely true it is true to some extent. Our northern indigenous people don't want to move south.

OK, but what does that have to do with settling in Canada (until it's safe to return) versus settling in Germany (until it's safe to return)?

look at a globe.

Quote:

I would agree with VoD. This has the optics of a "drowning" swimmer telling a lifeguard "Oh, no thanks. I was kind of hoping to have my life saved by that CUTE lifeguard...".

yes, optics. aka bullshit.

if you were displaced from your family and community in bc, and walked to a refugee camp in ontario, where would you rather be resettled, america or siberia? it's like that.

Fri, 2015-12-04 20:42

#125

Mr. Magoo

So that's why refugees are all hoping to be resettled in Greece. Because it's closer than Germany.

Sat, 2015-12-05 01:31

#126

Pondering

Mr. Magoo wrote:

So that's why refugees are all hoping to be resettled in Greece. Because it's closer than Germany.

We aren't taking refugees from the masses that are treking to Germany by land and water. We are taking them from refugee camps in Jordan, Turkey and Lebannon. Some have been living there for years. They've never heard of Canada. They have no idea what we are offering.

Some commentator said that once some are here and the word gets back more will want to come, but even now there is no shortage. I read how one woman was crying as she left because she and her 2 children only got a "3", you need a "1" to be eligible to come. She is missing documents and I think her husband is not with her.

In one of the accounts the woman is hesitant and doesn't really want to go but her adult son is pressuring her. Easy for him to start a new life, not so much for his mother. She will probably never become fluent in French or English. Leaving everything you know may mean you will never feel at home again.

Sat, 2015-12-05 02:02

#127

NDPP

Weapons of Mass Migration; Forced Displacement, Coercion and Foreign Policy (podcast) - by Kelly M Greenhill

http://www.rsc.ox.ac.uk/news/weapons-of-mass-migration-forced-displaceme...

"In this seminar, Professor Greenhill examines an understudied, yet relatively common, bargaining tool and method of persuasion: namely the use of migration and refugee crises as non-military instrument of state-level coercion..."

Sat, 2015-12-05 19:45

#128

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
exactly. this "ungrateful refugee" meme is that people who are refugees should have zero agency, and should simply leap to grateful attention and go where they are told, no talkin' back.

It's a product of the "they're fleeing for their very lives" meme.

Again, if you're drowning and about to die, do you choose which lifeguard saves you?

If they're not fleeing for their lives then let's change that meme and just call them "migrants". Though I seem to recall some backlash around the use of the term "migrants" and not people fleeing for their lives.

Sat, 2015-12-05 19:47

#129

eastnoireast

Pondering wrote:

Mr. Magoo wrote:

So that's why refugees are all hoping to be resettled in Greece. Because it's closer than Germany.

We aren't taking refugees from the masses that are treking to Germany by land and water. We are taking them from refugee camps in Jordan, Turkey and Lebannon. Some have been living there for years. They've never heard of Canada. They have no idea what we are offering.

Some commentator said that once some are here and the word gets back more will want to come, but even now there is no shortage. I read how one woman was crying as she left because she and her 2 children only got a "3", you need a "1" to be eligible to come. She is missing documents and I think her husband is not with her.

In one of the accounts the woman is hesitant and doesn't really want to go but her adult son is pressuring her. Easy for him to start a new life, not so much for his mother. She will probably never become fluent in French or English. Leaving everything you know may mean you will never feel at home again.

exactly. this "ungrateful refugee" meme is that people who are refugees should have zero agency, and should simply leap to grateful attention and go where they are told, no talkin' back.

it says a lot about our priviledge, about "canada" helping out - so we can feel better. there is something about this that is really insidious, more than the standard racism.

i'm curious as to how it started, a bit of spin by the gov to help "explain" not meeting their deadline?

canada's entire quota is .63% of the 4 million who have fled their country. another 6.5 are internally displaced. so we will probably be able to find enough folks who aren't afraid of parkas.

Sat, 2015-12-05 19:55

#130

eastnoireast

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
exactly. this "ungrateful refugee" meme is that people who are refugees should have zero agency, and should simply leap to grateful attention and go where they are told, no talkin' back.

It's a product of the "they're fleeing for their very lives" meme.

Again, if you're drowning and about to die, do you choose which lifeguard saves you?

If they're not fleeing for their lives then let's change that meme and just call them "migrants". Though I seem to recall some backlash around the use of the term "migrants" and not people fleeing for their lives.

like i said, insidious.

they have already fled for their lives, now they are rotting in camps, trying to not have the rest of their lives suck.

just like you or i would be doing.

Sat, 2015-12-05 20:13

#131

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
they have already fled for their lives, now they are rotting in camps, trying to not have the rest of their lives suck.

Do you mean "rotting in camps" because settling in Canada would be even WORSE?

Sat, 2015-12-05 20:37

#132

eastnoireast

no.

Sun, 2015-12-06 01:26

#133

Pondering

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
they have already fled for their lives, now they are rotting in camps, trying to not have the rest of their lives suck.

Do you mean "rotting in camps" because settling in Canada would be even WORSE?

No, they don't know what is in Canada. The woman with the son I mentioned asked if they would be put in camps here. They are afraid of jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

Sun, 2015-12-06 11:02

#134

voice of the damned

Pondering wrote:

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
they have already fled for their lives, now they are rotting in camps, trying to not have the rest of their lives suck.

Do you mean "rotting in camps" because settling in Canada would be even WORSE?

No, they don't know what is in Canada. The woman with the son I mentioned asked if they would be put in camps here. They are afraid of jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

Well, Canada's profile in the world would have to be absolutely ZERO, for all those people to think it possible that living there is likely to be more dangerous than living in the war zones of Syria.

I'm personally fine with any number of Syrians settling in Canada, for whatever reason. It's just that there really do ssem to be some kinks in the narrative that's being presented to the public as a justification.

Sun, 2015-12-06 11:08

#135

voice of the damned

And, assuming that people do have all this misinformation about Canada, couldn't the aid agencies running the camps set them straight about things? Presumbaly, the people in the camps trust those agencies?

Sun, 2015-12-06 13:05

#136

NDPP

I too am fine with Syrians living in Canada. However, in Toronto where social housing spaces are in short supply and waiting lists long, this whole thing will get very ugly, very fast should poor Canadians find the queue is being jumped, and they are pushed aside in favour of this pet project of the Liberals.

Sun, 2015-12-06 15:57

#137

Paladin1

voice of the damned wrote:
And, assuming that people do have all this misinformation about Canada, couldn't the aid agencies running the camps set them straight about things? Presumbaly, the people in the camps trust those agencies?

I HAVE seen some misinformation purposely put out to illerate famers with no real contact to the world but Syria is hardly Hoth. Data plans in Europe and surrounding areas are incredibly cheapter than we see in Canada (and the cell phone reception is 1000 times better). That along with information from Red Cross and other air workers? I'll bet money the majority of them know more about Canada than Americans.

Mon, 2015-12-07 01:36

#138

NDPP

How To End the Syrian Refugee Crisis

https://youtu.be/khs7ebaudjI

"The Western-backed war on Syria has led to millions of of displaced Syrians...Accepting a few thousand refugees won't solve the problem. But it alleviates concerns of left-wing do-gooders and makes them feel good about themselves." - Syrian Girl Mimi Laham

Tue, 2016-01-05 08:36

#139

lagatta

Children adrift: Up to two million Iraqi and Syrian children are orphaned by war. Thirty million children are refugees. But Canada cannot help them

Children adrift By Fram Dinshaw | December 24th 2015 Scroll down to continue Syrian orphans tell us their tragic stories Video of Syrian orphans tell us their tragic stories Syrian orphans interviewed by Al Jazeera.

Up to two million Syrian and Iraqi children have been orphaned by war as of Christmas 2015, having lost one or both parents to air raids, massacres, or from street fighting.

But war orphans will not specifically be included in the 25,000 Syrian war refugees whom the government aims to bring to Canada by Feb. 29 next year. Instead, Ottawa is focusing primarily on resettling whole families – parents and children – as well as vulnerable people such as LGBTQ Syrians.

“There are legal and other issues with orphans, which makes it more complex. Undoubtedly, it’d take more time – and time is one thing we don’t have very much of given our targets, so we are not focusing on orphans,” Immigration Minister John McCallum told National Observer on Dec. 23 in Ottawa.

However, there are precedents for accepting unaccompanied minors...

http://www.nationalobserver.com/2015/12/24/immigration-minister-explains...

'Operation Syrian Refugees': Up To 900 A Day To Land in Toronto, Montreal As Early As Dec. 1

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