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University of Ottawa yoga class resumes with new teacher
Wed, 2016-01-27 13:53
#1
University of Ottawa yoga class resumes with new teacher
Wed, 2016-01-27 13:56
#2
Little more than two months ago, many were outraged to hear that a yoga class at the University of Ottawa was cancelled. The problem wasn’t a lack of interest, the class’s teacher said. It was concerns that yoga was taken from India, a culture that “experienced oppression, cultural genocide and diasporas due to colonialism and western supremacy,” according to the group that once sponsored it....
Now, it appears the controversial class is back on — with a teacher of Indian background, who is wondering if she was hired because of her race.
I had intended just to tack this onto the end of our discussion of it, but that thread doesn't seem to exist any more (?).
Anyone else remember this??
Wed, 2016-01-27 14:26
#3
Don't remember the thread. I certainly remember the issue.
All I have to say to the rest of you is I want all of my whiskey back.
Wed, 2016-01-27 14:38
#4
I'm not sure whether it was its own thread or just a bunch of posts in another thread, but either way I figured if I googled "site:rabble.ca yoga" I'd find it either way.
Wed, 2016-01-27 15:28
#5
swallow
You can find previous disucssion at [url]http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/and-so-new-era-begins-canadian...
From your link to the Tor. Star, Magoo:
“We would like to stress the fact that the classes were not cancelled,” it read. “They were put on hold to allow the CSD to do proper consultation amongst themselves, with Service Centre users, and interested students at large, in order to provide better programming. . . . We are excited to reintroduce a program that is beneficial for the CSD service-users, in the winter semester.”
So again, classes were not cancelled, yoga was not banned, etc.
I'm going to re-quote something I linked to last time:
If you’re not a disabled student, you don’t get to decide whether the CSD is using it’s funding appropriately. And if you’re not a south asian person, you don’t get to decide whether yoga is offensive or not. We need to be willing to be engaged about this. I’m actually appalled at how often this has to be said — not just to the right wing folks who are right now harassing the CSD’s staff, but to left wing activists I know who still read Sun News. We need to see past the media’s sensationalism and have an actual calm and nuanced conversation.
[url=http://murkygreenwaters.com/2015/11/24/the-yoga-controversy-a-disabled-p...The University of Ottawa yoga controversy: a disabled person’s response[/url]
Wed, 2016-01-27 15:38
#6
Thanks for the link. I guess I'm just losing my mind, because when I googled it today, and when I used babble's own search function, it didn't turn up. :0
Wed, 2016-01-27 16:37
#7
I'd never dream of telling a south Asian person that s/he is wrong in considering western people doing yoga cultural appropriation. And if the school wants to go along with that, fine.
But just like there are plenty of my people who are more than willing to share our whiskey with you, not everyone from that culture is of the same mind about it.
I know several traditional Chinese doctors who are not Chinese; somehow they managed to get through the school and receive their credentials. A good friend is taking training in another treatment style in Thailand right now. I don't think anyone there expects him to come back home and sit on his hands and not use it because he is white.
And if the problem is secularizing the religious aspect of yoga, well perhaps next we should go after teaching the 24 form tai chi set which was created by the Chinese Sports Commission as an alternative to the 108 movement Taoist School.
Wed, 2016-01-27 18:35
#8
to be honest i thought this whole thing was probably the work of right wing "anti-pc" folks trying to make a point.
Wed, 2016-01-27 19:04
#9
And if the school wants to go along with that, fine.
Well, so long as their cafeteria doesn't offer pizza, pad thai, stir fries, hummus or tacos.
to be honest i thought this whole thing was probably the work of right wing "anti-pc" folks trying to make a point.
You mean like a false-flag kind of thing?
Wed, 2016-01-27 19:13
#10
No, I wasn't being tongue in cheek (too tongue in cheek, anyway) I mean if they want to do this, fine.Though if they really wanted to challenge the cultural appropriation of yoga they might want to target some high end place that is raking in the dough over it.
As for the tacos and hummus, or shutting the Italian place down altogether over the noodles and tomatoes, we all know no one is going to take this as far as giving up vaccination because it is a Turkish cultural practice (and yoga is a health practice, so actually you can equate the two)
Wed, 2016-01-27 19:32
#11
I mean if they want to do this, fine.Though if they really wanted to challenge the cultural appropriation of yoga they might want to target some high end place that is raking in the dough over it.
Ya, I'm not going to lobby for the SCOC to reverse it either. But if anyone wanted to catch the really big fish, I wouldn't even suggest going after, say, the YMCA. Go after Lululemon. They've done pretty well for themselves selling non-authentic yoga clothing to the non-spiritual.
I know several traditional Chinese doctors who are not Chinese
In the interest of accuracy, you know several TCMPs (Traditional Chinese Medicine Practitioners) who are not Chinese. The designation "doctor" floated around for a while before the practice was regulated, but as yet there is not an official "Doctor" designation unless that practitioner also has an M.D.
How do I know this? My wife, who is not Chinese, is a TCMP. :)
I would also guess that the majority of acupuncturists in Ontario are not Chinese, Japanese or Korean -- some acus work within the TCM (or Japanese, or Korean) framework, but many (such as you might find at a health club or physiotherapist practice) simply "needle by the numbers" with no TCM context.
Wed, 2016-01-27 20:45
#12
Or Naturopathic Doctors, because there are NDs, like it or not. At least in our province.
Wed, 2016-01-27 21:09
#13
There are also Doctors of Chiropractic. As I understand it, that was the result of an agreement between chiropractors and the CMA -- chiropractors could use that designation in exchange for an agreement that they would only treat very specific things.
Wed, 2016-01-27 21:14
#14
It's not as if general practitioners can treat everything either.
And then there is Dr. Mehmet Oz.
But we're drifting.
Wed, 2016-01-27 21:46
#15
swallow
Thanks for the link. I guess I'm just losing my mind, because when I googled it today, and when I used babble's own search function, it didn't turn up. :0
Babble's search function? You'd have better luck finding something by randomly sticking pins into the internet.
Wed, 2016-01-27 22:03
#16
Thanks for the link. I guess I'm just losing my mind, because when I googled it today, and when I used babble's own search function, it didn't turn up. :0
Babble's search function? You'd have better luck finding something by randomly sticking pins into the internet.
Ya, but to be fair that's true of most sites that don't just give up and integrate google search. babble is kinda a 'cute antique'
Thu, 2016-01-28 12:41
#17
swallow
Fair enough. I wish the search function could tell its antique from its elbow, though!
Thu, 2016-01-28 17:13
#18
Fair enough. I wish the search function could tell its antique from its elbow, though!
Nice one. :)
Thu, 2016-01-28 21:00
#19
has there been anything written about what alleged cultural appropriations took place? Ususally this info would be part of any decent article, but they all just seem to point to simply doing yoga as appropriation.
to be honest, the culture i think of these days when someone mentions a yoga class is suburban white people.
Thu, 2016-01-28 21:07
#20
Ten years ago, my wife and I used to order pizza from the Pizza Pizza at Church and Dundas. I was a walk-in customer enough to know that every employee there was Asian. Which is only to say, not Italian.
Isn't that how a "melting pot" eventually works? i.e.: everything getting melted together?
Thu, 2016-01-28 22:59
#21
Well, I can see what they might have been talking about. When it comes to traditional practices that have been commercialized, yoga is up there.
I don't see that there is an inherent problem with others doing it or teaching it; it is, after all, a health practice. Though I can also see why some would want to make a reminder of where it came from.
Question is, does that extend to saying that people can't take part in tai chi, yoga, or other practices without adopting the religious dogma as well (which is, in fact what the REAL roots are) ? I'd say that's the limit of this educational exercise.
Fri, 2016-01-29 17:03
#22
Ya, I guess that's why I find this story so strange. I get that many practices, arts, religions, foods or other cultural things that we (in a somewhat multicultural milieu) take for granted have deep roots in some cultures and such, I guess I've never thought that practicing them in good faith if you weren't born into that community is some kind of "blackface". I certainly wouldn't ever feel like an Asian person playing Mozart on piano is any kind of appropriation. That style of music isn't "Austrian culture" and that instrument is no longer "Italian". After a few hundred years, these things are open to anyone, aren't they?
And honestly, I might be more inclined to give this more good-faith consideration if there had been any complaints from students or faculty of Indian heritage, but evidently there were none. Which kind of does make it look like some kind of "politically correct" initiative.
Fri, 2016-01-29 17:40
#23
Here is a Canadian success story of appropriation. Hong Kong Master moves to Vancouver and trains many white people to teach the ancient art. It is now International and the majority of teachers are not Chinese. Could anyone think there is something wrong with this.
The Fung Loy Kok Institute of Taoism (FLK) observes the unified teachings of the three religions of Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism. Its mission is to deliver all from suffering, both the living and the dead, by pursuing the way of community service, rituals and ceremonies, and the cultivation of body and mind.
Fung Loy Kok promotes the principle of all cultures and religions moving together in harmony. Individuals of all backgrounds and beliefs are welcome to participate in Fung Loy Kok.
Taoism emphasizes spiritual development through cultivation of both mind and body, with the ultimate goal of achieving harmony within oneself and with the world.
There are three main aspects of Taoist practice:
1) performing good deeds,
2) rituals and ceremonies, and
3) arts of transformation (internal alchemy).The foundation of this practice is established through the Taoist Tai Chi® arts which include Tai Chi, meditation, Hsing-I, rituals and ceremonies, Tai Chi Sword, community service, Lok Hup Ba Fa, chanting and Tai Chi Sabre as taught by Master Moy Lin Shin and provided by FLK.
Participants will have the opportunity to practice any and all components of this training as they choose.
http://www.taoist.org/about-us/
[quote]
Our Founder Master Moy Lin Shin
The Taoist Tai Chi® arts were developed and made available to us by a Taoist monk, Master Moy Lin Shin. His teachings combine an extensive knowledge of the Taoist classics with training he received from respected teachers in China and Hong Kong.
As a boy, Master Moy Lin Shin grew up with serious health problems. To aid his recovery, he began to practice Tai Chi and Lok Hup, as well as Taoist meditation. These techniques helped him fully recover from his illness and inspired him to try to make these arts available to all who wished to learn them. To do so, he developed the 108-move set that we practice, an art that brings together the many insights Master Moy Lin Shin learned about the workings of human physiology, internal circulation and spiritual training.
In 1970, Master Moy immigrated to Canada, where he devoted the rest of his life to fulfilling the aim to help people restore and maintain their physical, mental and spiritual well being through the practice of Taoist Tai Chi® arts.
Master Moy was always careful to point out that these teachings were more than just a mere set of movements, they encompassed practical wisdom for living, drawing upon the richness of Chinese culture and Taoist tradition.
[quote]
Fri, 2016-01-29 18:18
#24
If Master Moy had no problem with it, then no. And he did not.
Is his bringing that practice here more appropriation than the Chinese government's complete rearrangement of the movements (from 108 to 24), and removal of Taoist teaching, because they happen to be of the same race?
Magoo, there is a difference between what other cultures do wiht western stuff, and the way we commercialize some of their stuff. But there are limits to that, both when it comes to practices whch are openly shared, and stuff that would really test the limits of our politics - like the vaccination example I mentioned.
And the notion of treating canoe and kayak sales in the same protectionist way the French government treats camembert and champagne. But then, that horse is out of the barn.
As for this case, like I said, I have no problem with it, (personally, more because of the commercialism than the racial aspect, because really it is a religious practice). But if the school is going to make a point of hiring someone of South Asian heritage, they should make sure the new teacher is on board with the purpose of the exercise, and not left feeling as awkward as the the former teacher must bhave been at being told her volunteer work was "oppression".
Sat, 2016-01-30 09:32
#25
swallow
The school has not made a point of hiring anyone though. U of Ottawa had yoga classes before this happened, and never stoipped offering them.
The Centre for Students with Disability did suspend a class, and has now resumed a class, with a new teacher. They are also not making a point of it.
It's the media that are making a point of all this. And getting it alrgely wrong. The story really serves as a terrific example of much of what's wrong with the Daily Clickbait media of today.
Sat, 2016-01-30 10:43
#26
I suppose there is a good reason why that letter (#4) advises people to look into the issue of appropriation, but blames the media for the controversy and says that nothing happened - specifically that they might wind up with a human rights complaint on their hands.
No one is looking at the issue of appropriation? ...except that both the former and current teachers spoke about exactly that. But if, as the letter claims, that isn't why the student organization did this, then how can the media be expected to report that?
Like I said, I don't actually have a problem with an exercise like this. Even if a more appropriate target might be a large profitable operation, it is the sort of thing one can do in the educational and cloistered environment of a university.
But while I do appreciate the potential legal bind, I can also see that the two teachers are themselves in a difficult spot over this.
(edit)
It is kind of awkward to pretend that those who see quite clearly what seems to have happened are just whipping up a controversy over nothing, but ignoring a root issue (apparently unrelated, even though it is exactly the same thing), or that this has to do with a group's power to make their own decisions, which no one has challenged.
.
Sat, 2016-01-30 18:09
#27
The school has not made a point of hiring anyone though. U of Ottawa had yoga classes before this happened, and never stoipped offering them.
Certainly a number of news providers got a bit sloppy and referred to "the University of Ottawa" cancelling the class and terminating the instructor, rather than "the University of Ottawa Student Federation". But other than that, I'm not sure exactly where the news providers have been getting everything wrong.
Had I thought to put this in "Labour and Consumption" then we'd at least have to acknowledge that there's something massively hinky about the Student Federation firing an instructor who's been teaching this class since 2008.
It wasn't lack of money; she offered to teach it for free.
It wasn't substantive complaints; even the Federation doesn't claim that there were any direct complaints about the instructor.
It wasn't a lack of interest; if so, why would they hire a new instructor??
Sat, 2016-01-30 18:33
#28
swallow
It was the Centre for Students with Disabilities, not the entire student federation.
Yoga never stopped at the university. It only paused at the CSD.
When there are headlines saying a university banned yoga, and that is simply factually inaccurate, it's more than "a bit sloppy." It's simply wrong. Once, newspapers had fact-checkers for this stuff. Now they don't bother, because sensationalist headliens get clicks.
Please forgive me for thinking factual accuracy has relevance to the topic.
Sat, 2016-01-30 18:39
#29
It was the Centre for Students with Disabilities, not the entire student federation.
Looking at the e-mails in the various linked articles, it seems like some of the discussion/explanation has come from the CSD and some from the Federation. But very well.
Please forgive me for thinking factual accuracy has relevance to the topic.
No worries. But once we agree that it was the CSD, and not the University as a whole, behind this, do you have any thoughts on this teacher, with 8 years of service, getting replaced?
Sat, 2016-01-30 19:01
#30
The CSD might think it is taking the high ground by playing deliberately obtuse, and not considering that maybe it didn't think this plan through (as noble as it is).
Unfortunately, all that does is leave the field open to those who are rightly having a field day with this:
http://www.thebeaverton.com/campus/item/2403-student-union-closes-univer...
The Student Federation of the University of Ottawa has, through sheer force of will, closed the University of Ottawa citing a hodgepodge of Marxist teachings and various notions of privilege.
"We’re fed up fighting these small battles,” said one member of the student union who called for an immediate shutdown of university operations after discovering post-secondary education privileges during her hourly privilege check. “We see now that the only way forward is to dismantle the education industrial complex.”
And unfortunately paying less attention to the important issue than to the absurd denial, and the attempt to foist this lack of doing homework off on the media.
Sat, 2016-01-30 19:16
#31
swallow
Yeah, I read that earlier. Are they "rightly" having a field day? It's funny, but there's nothing absurd about thinking through privilege.
As to thoughts on your issue, Magoo, I think there's material linked here saying that she has moved on to new work. I don't personally object to white people teaching yoga to white people, no. But I don't think it's silly, or outrageous, to think these things through. I'd love to see more thought and less mockery - especially when the mockery is based on false information as it was in this media tempest.
Sat, 2016-01-30 19:32
#32
Mmmm... yeah. If they had just wanted to play dumb and say nothing was going on it would have been one thing (even if it probably wouldn't have stopped the mockery) .
Doing that while at the same putting all the blame on the media and scandalmongers, (and presumably the old wrong teacher and the new right one) for the fact people are not paying attention to exactly the things they want to and politely ignoring the things they want ignored? Kinda makes it fair game in my books.
And it really is too bad, because again, I think there is an issue here. Personally I don't think everyone else is entirely to blame for the fact it is being overshadowed by the circus.
Sat, 2016-01-30 19:51
#33
As to thoughts on your issue, Magoo, I think there's material linked here saying that she has moved on to new work.
What was her other option?
If we're reading the same thing, it doesn't sound like she's moving on to NEW work, just falling back on existing work.
But if she has other irons in the fire then there's nothing hinky about this, right?
Tue, 2018-09-18 12:49
#34
*bump*
I don't know if swallow is still around these days, but I wanted to hear more about her thoughts on this issue.
Tue, 2018-09-18 15:18
#35
what are your thoughts or feelings unionist?
for example i made a whole traditional dinner for the family last year to honour our Jewish heritage. was this a good thing or bad from your view?
Tue, 2018-09-18 15:29
#36
I love it, q! It's the highest praise for my heritage. Only next time - invite me.
Tue, 2018-09-18 16:16
#37
And since then this interesting podcast has been published. Not to say it speaks directly to what happened in Ottawa, but it does to the way some deal with this:
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/how-to-teach-yoga-when-you-re-the-only-indian-i...
Tue, 2018-09-18 18:23
#38
Not to say it speaks directly to what happened in Ottawa, but it does to the way some deal with this
Can you elaborate?
Because it kind of sounds to me like a good, authentic Chinese chef who gets a job at Lucky Golden Phoenix Dragon Temple and has to make sweet and sour chicken balls and stuff fortune cookies all day.
Tue, 2018-09-18 18:46
#39
There's nothing to elaborate. You read the piece and listened to the interview. It concerns how someone who really did experience that clash dealt with it.
Tue, 2018-09-18 19:41
#40
Fair enough. When you referred to "some deal with this" rather than "one dealt with this" I just wanted to make sure I was on the same page.
Tue, 2018-09-25 22:16
#41
swallow
*bump*
I don't know if swallow is still around these days, but I wanted to hear more about her thoughts on this issue.
You rang? (Yeah, got the message. It's been a while.)
Can't say I have much to add, really. The yoga class is still on, and no one seems to be making much of an issue about it. Good news for the people who want to take the class!
But let's quote something anyway.
It isn’t cultural appropriation to practice yoga. It is cultural appropriation to take the practice of yoga, minimize it into a trendy exercise routine, and slap on a religious prayer at the end that you don’t even believe in.
https://medium.com/@meholstein/western-yoga-is-a-great-example-of-cultur...
And some interesting history in this one:
To the so many white people who practice yoga, please don’t stop, but please do take a moment to look outside of yourself and understand how the history of yoga practice in the United States is intimately linked to some of the larger forces of white supremacy.
The origins of yoga can be traced back to South Asia, a space colonized by the British and Portuguese. The reasons why yoga became popular, and why various Indian yogis started travelling to England and the United States to “sell” yoga, is also tied up with colonialism.
http://www.kzoo.edu/praxis/yoga/
Hey, I managed to make the new (to me) board software work!
Tue, 2018-09-25 22:32
#42
Christians shouldn’t be saying namaste because Christians believe in only one god, the Lord.
Atheists shouldn’t be saying namaste because atheists believe in no god at all.
Nobody who doesn’t believe in the god within should be saying namaste. Ever.
Can I say "Goddamn it!" when I drop something on my foot, or is that the kind of blasphemy only open to true believers? What will those of us who don't believe in the ancient Norse gods call the 27th of September, since we don't believe in Thor and therefore it certainly can't be Thursday? Even that very article admits that in India, the word has no spiritual significance.
Tue, 2018-09-25 22:40
#43
swallow
And my former (Catholic) priest used it all the time, too.
Namaste.
Tue, 2018-09-25 22:52
#44
Thank you, swallow (and everyone!).