This is too funny. Now that we have established that the NDP has complained about the investors clause and that makes you guilty once again of peddaling easily proven falsehoods you revert to type. Look at my post 37 in which I predict that because your falsehood was exposed you would now claim that the NDP was not saying it loud enough. And here you are right on cue saying that the NDP is not screaming their objection. Just like I predicted. Like you always do when you are caught in your falsehoods. Wow, if you are going to pedal falsehoods you really do need a new method when they are exposed. As for your claim that I focus on " silly little games". I do believe you are telling the truth in that statement. You do see demonstrating integrity and telling the truth as " silly" and " little". On the other hand you place great importance on trying to score political points. But the relevant question for me is if you can't score political points without using falsehoods is that a point worth making? You and I have come to radically different answers to that question.[/quote]I answered your point directly. You claimed that the NDP's only criticism of the TPP only focussed on autos and dairy. That was false. In about two seconds I found another criticism from Mulcair in early Oct. centering on prescription drugs. Simple point, Pondering, you mislead people. You said that they only made two criticism of TPP while that is a demonstrable falsehood. And finally on the NDP website it does talk about ISDS, intellectual property rights and more. So, once again your claim is in direct contravention of easily available evidence. Show some integrity. http://www.ndp.ca/news/tpp-liberals-dont-think-better-possibleI generally avoid responding to this poster. I dislike how she treats facts. Here is a classic case. She says, " As far as I know..." she then goes onto state that the NDP's only objection to TPP is based on cars and dairy. Well, it took me only about two seconds to Google and find Mulcair talking about TPP and its effect on drug prices. But you know as far as she knows this is true. Wilful ignorance is not an excuse to try to mislead people. http://globalnews.ca/news/2266271/mulcair-vows-to-scrap-tpp-deal-if-elec...As far as I know the only problem the NDP has with TPP at this point is that it would hurt car manufacturing and dairy which is about the weakest possible argument against TPP that anyone could find.
JJ, you avoided addressing my point in favor of nitpicking, so please continue not responding.
The link you provided doesn't mention ISDS even though it is by far the most important aspect of the deal which my post made clear and you ignored.
My point was that ISDS is THE THE THE point to be focused on. This is something Mulcair and the NDP used to agree with me on.
This is something he should be SCREAMING about.
I have for YEARS said that if the NDP would come out STRONGLY over CETA I would support the NDP.
Having a petition on TPP now is a complete waste of time. Canadians are barely aware TPP exists. They trust the government knows best on trade deals. Not the Trudeau government, not the Harper government, ANY government.
I don't think YOU give a shit about either CETA or TPP. Your focus is on me and silly little games rather than actually fighting TPP.
Pretty harsh personal attack against Pondering for her opinion jjuares. Save for the feelings of Pondering, who is obviously big enough to let it fall off her shoulders, I personally enjoyed it because it's a vindication of my behaviour. The problem is YOU!
Chrystia Freeland to sign TPP deal in New Zealand: Is this a fixed game?
No, the problem is Freeland signing the TPP. The Libs have thrown the gauntlet down. Time to take up the challenge before the Executive Branch of government gets the gears in place to ratify it.
This is too funny. Now that we have established that the NDP has complained about the investors clause and that makes you guilty once again of peddaling easily proven falsehoods you revert to type. Look at my post 37 in which I predict that because your falsehood was exposed you would now claim that the NDP was not saying it loud enough. And here you are right on cue saying that the NDP is not screaming their objection. Just like I predicted. Like you always do when you are caught in your falsehoods. Wow, if you are going to pedal falsehoods you really do need a new method when they are exposed. As for your claim that I focus on " silly little games". I do believe you are telling the truth in that statement. You do see demonstrating integrity and telling the truth as " silly" and " little". On the other hand you place great importance on trying to score political points. But the relevant question for me is if you can't score political points without using falsehoods is that a point worth making? You and I have come to radically different answers to that question.
What's established is that you have no interest in talking about political issues. The NDP has not made a big deal about CETA or TPP for years. It was not an election issue. Mulcair is now claiming that TPP is renegotiable so he is taking advantage of the ignorance of Canadians to make political points. The deal is yes or no, not maybe. The argument against not ratifying will be that if we don't our economy will take a huge negative hit.
The problem is not convincing governments not to ratify. It is convincing the general public that the deal is a threat to our sovereignty. That is the only way these deals will be stopped.
All trade deals have postives and negatives. By the way, TPP (and probably CETA) stands to benefit the prairies enormously. The arguments in favor of the deals confuse Canadians by pumping up the positives for industry and Canadians. For example, Trudeau has been saying that exporting produces the highest paid jobs for the middle class. (I have no idea whether or not that is true but it doesn't matter.) There will be benefits as well as drawbacks to the trade deals so politicians will broadcast the benefits and people will get confused and think it is just too complicated for them to judge, but hey, the whole world trusts Canadian businesses because we elected Trudeau so we trust him too.
So then the trade deals get signed and babblers cry the sky is falling because it is but the only people paying attention are activists because activists are focused on activists and being perfectly right about everything. The right wins because unlike the left they do focus on the average voter.
This is too funny. Now that we have established that the NDP has complained about the investors clause and that makes you guilty once again of peddaling easily proven falsehoods you revert to type. Look at my post 37 in which I predict that because your falsehood was exposed you would now claim that the NDP was not saying it loud enough. And here you are right on cue saying that the NDP is not screaming their objection. Just like I predicted. Like you always do when you are caught in your falsehoods. Wow, if you are going to pedal falsehoods you really do need a new method when they are exposed. As for your claim that I focus on " silly little games". I do believe you are telling the truth in that statement. You do see demonstrating integrity and telling the truth as " silly" and " little". On the other hand you place great importance on trying to score political points. But the relevant question for me is if you can't score political points without using falsehoods is that a point worth making? You and I have come to radically different answers to that question.I answered your point directly. You claimed that the NDP's only criticism of the TPP only focussed on autos and dairy. That was false. In about two seconds I found another criticism from Mulcair in early Oct. centering on prescription drugs. Simple point, Pondering, you mislead people. You said that they only made two criticism of TPP while that is a demonstrable falsehood. And finally on the NDP website it does talk about ISDS, intellectual property rights and more. So, once again your claim is in direct contravention of easily available evidence. Show some integrity. http://www.ndp.ca/news/tpp-liberals-dont-think-better-possibleI generally avoid responding to this poster. I dislike how she treats facts. Here is a classic case. She says, " As far as I know..." she then goes onto state that the NDP's only objection to TPP is based on cars and dairy. Well, it took me only about two seconds to Google and find Mulcair talking about TPP and its effect on drug prices. But you know as far as she knows this is true. Wilful ignorance is not an excuse to try to mislead people. http://globalnews.ca/news/2266271/mulcair-vows-to-scrap-tpp-deal-if-elec...As far as I know the only problem the NDP has with TPP at this point is that it would hurt car manufacturing and dairy which is about the weakest possible argument against TPP that anyone could find.
JJ, you avoided addressing my point in favor of nitpicking, so please continue not responding.
The link you provided doesn't mention ISDS even though it is by far the most important aspect of the deal which my post made clear and you ignored.
My point was that ISDS is THE THE THE point to be focused on. This is something Mulcair and the NDP used to agree with me on.
This is something he should be SCREAMING about.
I have for YEARS said that if the NDP would come out STRONGLY over CETA I would support the NDP.
Having a petition on TPP now is a complete waste of time. Canadians are barely aware TPP exists. They trust the government knows best on trade deals. Not the Trudeau government, not the Harper government, ANY government.
I don't think YOU give a shit about either CETA or TPP. Your focus is on me and silly little games rather than actually fighting TPP.
Pretty harsh personal attack against Pondering for her opinion jjuares. Save for the feelings of Pondering, who is obviously big enough to let it fall off her shoulders, I personally enjoyed it because it's a vindication of my behaviour. The problem is YOU!
[/quote]
It is not her opinion I object to. It is her use of falsehoods. Read post 37 in which I predicted how she would respond when her falsehood was exposed. She did exactly what I said she would. She has used this same tiresome tactic before. She tries to " redirect" the conversation away from her falsehood. She made a simple comment that the NDP only seemed to object to the TPP for two reasons. Then twhen that is proven to be false she then says that they didn't object for the most important reason. Then I showed that to be false she said that they didn't do it loud enough as I predict cted she would in my post 37. . She continues to spiral away from false statements. Hey, some people value money, prestige, fame. As for me, I value integrity and truthfulness. Just a personal preference on my part I guess.
Re: post #53
Well, it's signed now so it can't be renegotiated at this point, which everyone concedes. Mulcair's letter to Fast was a feasible argument that the Cons did not have the mandate to complete negotiations during an election since they were in caretaker mode. So, to not accept the HarperCon TPP and argue to renegotiate was possible. And if not, to simply not have that deal would also be better, since the NDP promised not to table it. But voters didn't choose the NDP as government. However, as I mentioned, they are an ally in the House, which is good. They could still be potentially useful. And I completely agree with your following statement:
The problem is not convincing governments not to ratify. It is convincing the general public that the deal is a threat to our sovereignty. That is the only way these deals will be stopped.
Re: post #53
Well, it's signed now so it can't be renegotiated at this point, which everyone concedes. Mulcair's letter to Fast was a feasible argument that the Cons did not have the mandate to complete negotiations during an election since they were in caretaker mode. So, to not accept the HarperCon TPP and argue to renegotiate was possible. And if not, to simply not have that deal would also be better, since the NDP promised not to table it. But voters didn't choose the NDP as government. However, as I mentioned, they are an ally in the House, which is good. They could still be potentially useful. And I completely agree with your following statement:
The problem is not convincing governments not to ratify. It is convincing the general public that the deal is a threat to our sovereignty. That is the only way these deals will be stopped.
The signing is completely and entirely meaningless. It could not be renegotiated before the signing and it could not be renegotiated after the signing. Signing has zero to do with whether or not it can be altered.
The reason it can't be renegotiated is because the US won't allow it with the excuse that so many different countries are involved. If one country is allowed to reopen then all the countries will want modifications too. There is no legal impediment. The corporations are deadset on the ISDS in all three trade deals. CETA, TPP, TIPP.
It's a bit of a contradiction to say that Europe or the States has the right to demand changes in these deals but Canada does not (Canada has a lotta resources that I'm betting Japan certainly is interested in getting cheaper which gives Canada clout). You mentioned earlier that,
Why are European's so against it? Why can't we just drop the ISDS chapter? (we can) Why aren't we?
But then you say, "It could not be renegotiated before the signing and it could not be renegotiated after the signing." So, first it's "we can" and then it's we can't.
Whatever.
Anyway, it's not important since we both agree on the main point, which is that it's people power that will be the way to stop it now. To requote you,
The problem is not convincing governments not to ratify. It is convincing the general public that the deal is a threat to our sovereignty. That is the only way these deals will be stopped.
So, citizens groups like the Council of Canadians, environmentalists, some business people (hey, even Balsillie spoke against it), the NDP, unions, and other communities at large can hopefully take on the fight and win.
Whatever. As I said, it's now irrelevant since Freeland signed it. As you correctly said,
The problem is not convincing governments not to ratify. It is convincing the general public that the deal is a threat to our sovereignty. That is the only way these deals will be stopped.
And as I said, hopefully citizens groups like the Council of Canadians, environmentalists, some business people (hey, even Balsillie spoke against it), the NDP, unions, and other communities at large and people in general can take on the fight and win.
It's a bit of a contradiction to say that Europe or the States has the right to demand changes in these deals but Canada does not (Canada has a lotta resources that I'm betting Japan certainly is interested in getting cheaper which gives Canada clout).....But then you say, "It could not be renegotiated before the signing and it could not be renegotiated after the signing." So, first it's "we can" and then it's we can't.
We begged to be included in TPP. We had to agree to conditions we had not yet read to be included. If Canada doesn't ratify we are out. The rest of the countries will go ahead with it. We just won't be part of the deal. I read the argument that if that were to occur, everyone else was in and we were out, it could reduce our trade by 3.7%. I have no idea if that is true or not. I have no way of knowing. It's beyond me how something like that can be calculated like looking into a crystal ball. In any case that will be the line. We can't afford not to be in it. Apparently it would increase our beef exports as well as other agricultural products. I'm certain other benefits will be touted to counter "protectionist" arguments. That much I don't need a crystal ball to see. There will be fulsome debate but in the end Canadians will probably support it out of fear of being left out. That is assuming the US signs it.
We don't have a veto on TPP. We do have a veto on CETA.
CETA is a very different animal. With CETA we are one of two partners. If the Europeans don't want the ISDS chapter and Canada agrees we can just drop it and go ahead with the rest of the deal.
The EU team is saying the deal can't be reopened, and modifying the ISDS to pretend they have fixed it as part of the legal scrubbing process rather than renegotiation, which supposedly can't be done. But Germany is the power signatory behind the deal and there is strong support against it there.
In Europe they don't really mind having it in the deal with Canada. Their fear is US corporations from two angles. The first, is that US companies could use Canadian subsiduaries to sue. The second is that talks are beginning on TIPP, their deal with the US. They are afraid that the ISDS clause in CETA would serve as a precedent and boiler plate for their deal with the US.
If Canada told the EU, officially, that we are fine with dropping the ISDS in CETA and going ahead with the rest of the deal it would make it much easier for activists in the EU to fight its inclusion.
PS If we keep it out of CETA, it helps the Europeans to keep it out of TIPP. If it is removed from CETA and TIPP, the argument for getting it out of TPP is hugely strengthened. This could be the thread to pull to unravel these deals a bit more because people would be paying more attention to the trade deals as an avenue of corporate power. I'd like unions labour activists and consumer protection groups involved in all trade deals. It's outrageous that corporations are consulted while civil society is excluded.
TPP: The View From China
Obama's US-Centric Thinking Out of Date
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-02/04/c_135075402.htm
"This archaic way of thinking - namely, one where the US is at the center of and dictates global affairs is obviously out of step in the present era..."
It's true and quite aside from its other inherent dangers we would do much better out of it than inside some US constructed trade-cage of vassal states.
Canada and the TPP - by Murray Dobbin
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/02/05/canada-and-the-tpp/
"Does Freeland know what is being said in her name?
Is there any way to counter the pernicious influence of these free trade zealots?"
Of course I`ve thought about these problems for some time...and have a number of solutions, but until a movement is born in Canada to seriously developa plan for humanity in Canada and the salvation of its natural riches?
The whole operation...corporations using these FTA`s, their bureaucrats, their products! must be challenged, with boycotts sanctions and civil non violent challenge!
But a serious alternatives movement must be created to offer options......
We definitely must move away from their financials and currencies, creating our own trading relations, barter systems and alternative regionally based currencies..
But this of course all depends on the idea that our cultural values must seriously shift if we wish to rejuvenate our territories....
as Ayesha Ghadaffi so eloquently stated it in my post on her recently.....the principle on which most operate...who pays the best! must be shot down....
Interesting to note that the current front-runners in the US presidential contest, Trump and Sanders, are both on record as opposing the TPP. And war with Russia too. Not that campaign promises are necessarily kept of course..
Interesting to note that the current front-runners in the US presidential contest, Trump and Sanders, are both on record as opposing the TPP. And war with Russia too. Not that campaign promises are necessarily kept of course..
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-sanders-trade-in-common
@ josh: May the best (anti-tpp) man win...
Ford Canada CEO To Raise Concerns Over TPP With Ottawa
http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2016/02/11/ford-canada-ceo-to-raise-con...
"Right now, as the TPP stands, there will be no positive outcome for Canadian manufacturing." - CEO Ford Canada
This excellent long essay by Prof John McMurtry exemplifies what 'the corporate coup d'etat by stealth' the TPP is all about...
Decoding the US Empire of Chaos: The Global Reversal of the Social Evolution of Humanity - by John McMurtry, Guelph U
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article44185.htm
"...But a cautionary word. The deep global game-changers here are institutional moves at the level of sweeping trade treaties and thousands of new bureaucratic laws and regulations.
They silently replace sovereign government and democratically legislated policies and laws everywhere, 'to compete in the global market, with few observing that they are massive corporate-lawyer fiats, multiplying protections of transnational business profits, as their single unifying objective.
They too are secret in negotiations, corporate lobby construction, thousands of pages of prescriptions, and closed tribunals punishing states which disobey. It is hard to see where the dark financial global coup d'etat stops.
Yet observe that throughout the revolutionary redistribution of wealth from the poor to the rich, the magic of the market and global ization are proclaimed as 'enhanced competition,' 'liberalized de-regulation,' 'more labour flexibility', reduced welfare costs,' and 'austerity programs to correct excesses.'
In fact, beneath the pervasive propaganda conditioning citizens to believe in the money shell-game devouring the world, the poorer half of humanity has been deprived of one trillion dollars of wealth in five years, while the 62 richest people have gained almost twice as much for themselves by the operations of the system.
As these and other facts show, borderless and deregulated corporate globalization is eating the world alive..."
Bravo Prof McMurtry! A Canadian academic intellectual in resistance and not sold out and silent as so many are.
Canada's best opportunity is in producer goods such as pre-fabbed factories and the industrial goods contained within. China is moving from a manufacturing economy to one more like ours, and this means manufacturing opportunities for the LDCs which wish to supply China more than raw materials. Australia is killing everyone in resources production, because their costs are very low.
It could be a huge business for Canada.
Notice how the loonie lifted off from 0.69 even while oil continued to crash. We have decoupled from oil, which indicates a hopeful future. The shills keep advertising on TV saying we should build these disgusting pipelines. Why should we when it is cheaper to buy it on world markets? Don't these idiot oil shills believe in free enterprise?
Bernie Sanders: The Trans-Pacific Partnership is a "disastrous" deal for the middle-class
Remind us why Canada signed this again?
On the same day as Canada joined 11 other countries in signing the Trans-Pacific Partnership, Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders slammed the massive trade deal, warning the TPP will throw workers "out on the street."
The TPP is a continuation of our disastrous trade policies that have devastated manufacturing cities and towns all over this country.
— Bernie Sanders (@BernieSanders) February 3, 2016
My interest here on rabble is to step beyond “education” and into “action”. Once the articles have all been shared, and favourited, what happens next?
I’ve seen way too many progressive minded people decry killings (wars, coups), thefts (lobbying, trade agreements) but do nothing other than share articles. And then move onto other topics, and just sharing articles again. Yes, I’m aware I fit into a similar category of people who bemoan inaction while not taking action. But I want to figure out with you what action can be taken.
Now, if there were a ready mechanism to hold Liberal/Conservative establishment accountable for pushing wars, TPP, etc, and it was only a matter of “educating” enough people to utilize those mechanism... then great, share the articles.
But I want to know what these mechanisms for action are, and to take part in utilizing them. Whether alone, or with some of you.
So we have the articles, we have a visible number of people convinced... now what? “Well, we need more people. Keep sharing articles.” Okay, fine, but to what end?
TPP concerns mega corporations, trillions of dollars, detached and well financed politicians. What can we do and how do we do it in order to challenge them?
Perhaps here would be a good place to start looking for ways to get involved and take action: http://canadians.org/tpp
Perhaps here would be a good place to start looking for ways to get involved and take action: http://canadians.org/tpp
Another news and update site that promotes action in the form of a digital letter of protest to people who couldn't care less.
Any action is better than no action, I suppose. An intern taking the time to check box emails and putting them into the trash bin is at least some inconvenience.
Note: SEND THOSE LETTERS OF PROTEST VIA MAIL, NOT EMAIL. It’s harder to ignore and trash.
This is what I’m worried. We focus on an issue, make half hearted attempts to stand in front of a building, or send in emails… then move on to the next issue or drop it entirely. Again, any action is better than no action, but what other forms of action is there (for people like us?)?