ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,
Vegans argue they’re a ‘creed’ under Ontario human rights law
Thu, 2016-02-04 15:16
#1
Vegans argue they’re a ‘creed’ under Ontario human rights law
Thu, 2016-02-04 15:24
#2
“Creed may also include non-religious belief systems that, like religion, substantially influence a person’s identity, worldview and way of life,” reads the revamped policy on preventing discrimination based on creed, released Dec. 10.
Perhaps this might open the door for animalkins, BDSM fans, crossfit practitioners, furries, steampunks, mall ninjas and the chrono-gendered to shake off the yoke of oppression.
Thu, 2016-02-04 17:17
#3
bagkitty
So if they are successful in being accepted as a "creed" it will be possible to enforce workplace rules regarding proselytizing?
Thu, 2016-02-04 17:49
#4
“Creed may also include non-religious belief systems that, like religion, substantially influence a person’s identity, worldview and way of life,” reads the revamped policy on preventing discrimination based on creed, released Dec. 10.Perhaps this might open the door for animalkins, BDSM fans, crossfit practitioners, furries, steampunks, mall ninjas and the chrono-gendered to shake off the yoke of oppression.
Shitlord!
I hate crossfit so much. What's Chrono-gendered?
Thu, 2016-02-04 17:52
#5
People whose gender changes multiple times throughout the day.
Tue, 2016-02-09 14:02
#6
Ha ha. Let's all have a go at silly vegans who think that the [url=http://veganrabbit.com/the-issues/torture-and-infanticide-why-dairy-is-b... and murder of living, sentient beings[/url] is morally problematic.
Recognizing 'ethical creeds' like veganism will simply extend the same social protections to people who hold such 'creeds' as is currently granted to people who worship Yahweh, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If you don't think an employer should be allowed to terminate a kosher-keeping Jewish employee for refusing to attend, or refusing to eat at the company bbq pig roast, then the vegan employee should be entitled to the same rights.
Tue, 2016-02-09 14:20
#7
Timebandit
I don't know if I buy veganism, specifically, as a creed unto itself. I do appreciate the changes for those of us who are ethical non-believers and they do fit into that category (even though I find some of their notions anthropomorphizing and some outright bonkers). Here's an article about how we eat being more related to belief than we realize:
Foods are either natural or unnatural. They are good or bad. Bad foods harm you, and good foods cleanse you. Bad foods are sinfully delicious, or guilty pleasures. Good foods are whole, real, clean, and natural. Bad foods are fake, unnatural, and processed.
The terms we use reflect idiosyncratic dietary faiths, the religion scholar Alan Levinovitz explains in his new book The Gluten Lie, in which he examines why people tend to put moral and religious lenses on food terminology. Much of people's relationships to food can be explained by religious patterns of thought. Our words are often more philosophical than scientific. And our words inform approaches to eating, and overall well-being, in deeply consequential ways.
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/05/the-puritanical-approa...
PS - I've read the book, it's quite good.
Tue, 2016-02-09 14:41
#8
I'm a vegetarian, though I appreciate the work that some of the vegans in Toronto have done. For instance, I've noticed an ad campaign in the subways that has been quite impressive where the issue of how some animals are loved (pets) and others are eaten, when in fact a lot of similarities between pets and domesticated animals that are eaten can be found. I don't know if the group behind the push for being recognized as a creed and the push behind the ads are the same or not. But, just thought I'd give the group who's done the subway ads some kudos. Very good campaign.
Tue, 2016-02-09 14:58
#9
If you don't think an employer should be allowed to terminate a kosher-keeping Jewish employee for refusing to attend, or refusing to eat at the company bbq pig roast, then the vegan employee should be entitled to the same rights.
I don't disagree. But is this a really common problem? If a vegan were fired from their job for not eating some riblets, I have my doubts that vegan activists would be keeping that story under wraps so as not to bother us.
I guess my take on this -- and why it's hard to give it too much gravitas -- is that it kind of seems like a solution looking for a problem. And if the problem really IS a vegan who can't rent an apartment unless he agrees to eat beef then OK.
But I'm kind of expecting "problems" like:
- my co-workers hamburgers are creating a toxic workplace for me
- the ice cream truck triggers my PTSD
- when I smell a hotdog stand, that literally means that molecules from that hotdog are inside of my nose without my consent
The two modestly plausible problems that I've seen noted are a student who doesn't want to do a dissection in biology class, and an employee who's expected to wear leather as part of their work uniform. Fair enough. I doubt that the vegan would be the only student who wants to opt out of cutting up the frog, and I would certainly hope that an employer would permit an employee to substitute a vinyl belt, or whatever.
Tue, 2016-02-09 17:55
#10
Alan, I agree about the importance of ethical issues and an emphasis on the proper treatment of all sentient beings, but these issues are complex. I was at Can Tire buying of all things a couple of little tins of wet catfood for Renzo - he usually gets good-quality dry food, but since he is such an old codger, I do indulge him a bit (he is most certainly not overweight, on the contrary). Guy with slash/speciesism button starts talking about killing animals, and I said I eat very little meat, but what do you want, my cat is a carnivore. He said "there are vegan cats, but it is difficult"... I think I'd wake up missing a few body parts if I tried that... And then (as commis counts out my change) starts talking about how my cat is a "slave". Yes, I know keeping dogs and cats as pets isn't "natural' but what is in our society. I told him I was more concerned about the mistreatment of animals in factory farms and slaughterhouses, and that my cat actually adopted me; he was a stray.
Though most of the vegans I know don't act like that.
There are certainly vegetarians who couldn't bear to work at a restaurant that served meat, especially cooking it, and in that sense I do think that it is a "creed" just as much as the beliefs of a Jew or Muslim who doesn't want to work with pork. For example, I don't think vegans on UI should be penalized for refusing such a job, but in reality most seem to find something else to do.
Tue, 2016-02-09 18:21
#11
Guy with slash/speciesism button starts talking about killing animals
Were you wearing a button that said "... but enought about me, tell me about YOUR beliefs!"?
but what do you want, my cat is a carnivore.
Exactly. If I had a pet cow, and fed it only chicken nuggets and ham, people would be rightly horrified because cows are herbivores. It's their biology. Same with cats.
He said "there are vegan cats, but it is difficult"
I'm sure he meant difficult for the human, but I'm betting the cat's not loving it either, any more than my cow.
Tue, 2016-02-09 21:47
#12
Dogs can be vegetarian though. But yes, I think it simply cannot work for cats.
Tue, 2016-02-09 22:10
#13
bagkitty
Cats are obligate carnivores. Even with supplements, you are condemning them to a slow death by trying to hammer them into a vegan diet. Their digestive system does not produce the enzymes required to break down carbohydrates. Obligate carnivores do not have the internal biochemistry to convert the complex aminio acids into the specific kinds they actually need to survive and be healthy (humans do). Biology trumps ideology. Those vegans who do try to argue to the contrary fly in the face of the facts and do a disservice to the rest who, while I do not necessarily agree with the ideology, are acting with the best of intentions.
No, big pet food did not pay me for this, or any other, comment.
Tue, 2016-02-09 22:13
#14
Timebandit
Cats are dedicated carnivores, they don't thrive without meat. Also, if my pets are slaves they are clearly not with the program. I spend a heckuva lot more time doing stuff for them than they do for me.
Tue, 2016-02-09 22:15
#15
The answer if you're a vegetarian with a cat is to just be sloppy and promote a free-range feeding zone. Rodents make very good feed for cats.
Wed, 2016-02-10 04:15
#16
bagkitty
I wish some pet food industry genius would realize that is an opportunity to be had in creating and selling rodent based cat food. Frankly, I have a hard time imagining most cats taking down a tuna... or a cow. Who knows, even the pickiest cat might come running when you opened a can of mouse, rat and/or squirrel - they seem to be programmed for it.
Wed, 2016-02-10 05:29
#17
Renzo was quite the hunter in his day, but he's retired. In nature, he'd be long gone. He has a yowl for food, another for water, a third (with dirty looks) that his box MUST be changed. And some others that are just complaining, or chatting. Evidently they use sounds in interaction with humans that they don't with other cats.
A lot of vets (including our friend brebis) are very committed to spay and neuter clinics, including low-fee ones for poor people, to reduce the excess litters of puppies and kittens (and rabbits, by the way). But I suspect my Canadian Tire friend, for all his "antispeciesism", wouldn't be averse to "turning them out in nature", or suppressing them outright (PETA has done that).
Please vegans, I'm not arguing against veganism or the importance of challenging speciesism. There are a lot more unthinking meat eaters.
Timebandit, that book looks interesting, but I fear that like many rationalists, he has too much trust in "science". Science in scare quotes of course - I trust science over spiritualist nonsense, but he seems to almost deny industry influence on scientific research. Scientists (particularly in Europe) who advocate caution in terms of GMOs do not think they are all deadly; they think there is not enough proof and that "yellow rice" and such are not the best means of combatting world hunger.
Wed, 2016-02-10 11:07
#18
Timebandit
Actually, it's pretty balanced. Some skew to the science, but the science on GMOs is also much more advanced than it was some years ago. We're funny about food, we don't like to give up notions of what's good and what isn't even when the science shows those notions aren't quite correct - look at cholesterol and msg. It's fascinating how food ideas can become deepl held and unshakable beliefs.
Wed, 2016-02-10 12:44
#19
And then (as commis counts out my change) starts talking about how my cat is a "slave".
Anyone who's ever had a cat should know who the "master" and "servant" really is in that relationship. 
I agree as well that cats, like many animals, require meat to live. Anyone who tries to keep a dog or cat on a vegetable diet is abusing that animal. Humans [b]don't[/b] need meat, though. Moreover, in my opinion once you educate yourself about where most meat (as well as other animal-based products) come from, if you have any kind of moral compass you should be asking yourself some hard questions about whether you want to continue to participate in such an industry of pain and death.
There are certainly vegetarians who couldn't bear to work at a restaurant that served meat, especially cooking it, and in that sense I do think that it is a "creed" just as much as the beliefs of a Jew or Muslim who doesn't want to work with pork. For example, I don't think vegans on UI should be penalized for refusing such a job, but in reality most seem to find something else to do.
Aother good example of why including veganism as a creed is a good idea. Unfortunately until meat is illegal (or, if the science progresses, replaced with humane synthetic substitutes), there is a good chance there will be some person out there forced to choose between taking a job in an animal-exploiting industry, or no job at all. If the person makes the ethical choice she should at least be entitled to unemployment insurance. There will be plenty of other circumstances out there which merit similar treatment. The important thing is not that [b]most[/b] people, or even [b]most[/b] vegans won't face such a problem. The facts are that today, [b]most[/b] employers won't fire you for being black or gay or a Catholic, either. The point of an antidiscrimination law is to stop the bad actors who won't act as they should unless the law compells them to do so.
Wed, 2016-02-10 13:26
#20
Oh, I certainly agree. Some strict vegetarians and vegans wouldn't even work in a supermarket (and I don't mean as a butcher) or in a hotel where meat is served. And there aren't enough meatfree restaurants and grocery stores for them to find employment in that common field.
I agree that we don't need meat, but personally I still have some problems digesting legumes.
But I'm still laughing about my cat slave. Yes, he'd sometimes play "fetch", but only when he decided to. I have to go change his box now.
Wed, 2016-02-10 15:14
#21
Frankly, I have a hard time imagining most cats taking down a tuna... or a cow.
Same with most humans, I imagine.
Who knows, even the pickiest cat might come running when you opened a can of mouse, rat and/or squirrel - they seem to be programmed for it.
I think the programmed interest is primarily in mice, rats and squirrels that are alive. My cat manages to catch herself the odd mouse, and those times that we don't get to it before she's managed to kill it, she promptly loses interest in it.
Wed, 2016-02-10 15:22
#22
Yes, tuna are HUGE fish. Tuna fishing (such as it still exists) is a group effort.
Some cats do fish, usually in streams, when they can take out a fish with their paw. Not tuna!
I think they'll eat mice if they are hungry, but Renzo always brought them to me as a trophy of his hunting prowess. He is VERY interested in chicken (more than red meat); I guess it is like a larger version of the birds they do hunt.
Wed, 2016-02-10 15:29
#23
Ernest was a huge fan of bacon. Also tuna, and flour. Why flour? Who knows.
Olivia doesn't eat any human food at all. No interest in anything we eat, and never ever begs at the table. The one human thing she does like is the briny water from drained tuna. I'll usually drain it into a bowl -- you get maybe 3 tablespoons or so -- and she'll have that drank before the sandwiches are made.
Wed, 2016-02-10 17:07
#24
Nadja liked broccoli. That was weird.
But no, she wasn't a vegan.
Wed, 2016-02-10 17:12
#25
I remember hearing that Morrisey had a vegan cat.
When cats choose to go vegan, I have to give them props for it. It's courageous of them to put their own health at risk in order to live their principles.
Wed, 2016-02-10 17:22
#26
Timebandit
Penelope has a thing for dairy. I know, I know, most cats are lactose intolerant, but she's mad for yogurt and likes the last few drops of milk at the bottom of a cereal bowl.
We have a new addition to the family, Jack Frost Hemingway, who has 7 toes on each front paw (He's white, hence the Jack Frost). He is intensely interested in anything edible, but he's also growing really fast right now. I haven't seen him actually eat any veg, though.
(We lost Rosie to a speeding driver last November. So, down to just the one Calico Wicked.)
Wed, 2016-02-10 17:54
#27
Morrissey is a speciesist to force his cat to be a vegan.
There are still a lot of polydactyl Hemingway cats in Cuba. Though Hemingway has always bothered me, with his love of small cats and his macho posing with dead large ones. Very sorry about Rosie. Doubt the bastard was caught.
Wed, 2016-02-10 19:59
#28
Timebandit
Here's a wacky thing - vegan "butcher" shop. I've never understood the need for meat substitutes. When I was vegetarian, I settle for veggies without feeling like I had to replicate meat dishes.
Brother and sister team Kale and Aubry Walch just opened the Herbivorous Butcher, a vegan butcher shop in Minneapolis, Minn. Offering small batch “meat-free meats” and “cheese-free cheeses” made from locally sourced ingredients, the Herbivorous Butcher calls itself the first vegan butcher shop in America.Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/vegan-butcher-opens-doors-and-the-meat-indus...
Wed, 2016-02-10 20:01
#29
Timebandit
And no, we didn't catch the speeder. It could easily have been one of the kids on our block, too. Rush hour shortcut, asshole in a hurry.
Wed, 2016-02-10 20:09
#30
Here's a wacky thing - vegan "butcher" shop.
There's a relatively new one in my neighbourhood called "Yam Chops".
Lots of "faux" classic foods ("meatless Mongolian Beef") but also a lot of deals on juice cleanses and suchlike.
I popped in the one time just to see. But I won't be shopping there to save money.
Wed, 2016-02-10 20:20
#31
Timebandit
Oh yay, detoxes. Urgh. Overpriced quackery. I'm sure they're making money hand over fist.
Wed, 2016-02-10 21:03
#32
So if they are successful in being accepted as a "creed" it will be possible to enforce workplace rules regarding proselytizing?
Oh yes indeed, because it's the VEGANS who really control the messaging, isn't it? Everywhere I look, I'm just completely bombarded with veganism! Oh, the woe of the poor suppressed meat eater in North America! When will their voices be heard?
Ha ha. Let's all have a go at silly vegans who think that the [url=http://veganrabbit.com/the-issues/torture-and-infanticide-why-dairy-is-b... and murder of living, sentient beings[/url] is morally problematic.
Recognizing 'ethical creeds' like veganism will simply extend the same social protections to people who hold such 'creeds' as is currently granted to people who worship Yahweh, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If you don't think an employer should be allowed to terminate a kosher-keeping Jewish employee for refusing to attend, or refusing to eat at the company bbq pig roast, then the vegan employee should be entitled to the same rights.
Seriously. There's precisely nothing bizarre or incongruous about vegans seeking legitimacy. This is such an obvious non-issue to me. If you agree with the attempt, okay fine. If you don't, what possible implications could it have on you or your life?
Here's a wacky thing - vegan "butcher" shop. I've never understood the need for meat substitutes. When I was vegetarian, I settle for veggies without feeling like I had to replicate meat dishes.
It's not about "having" to do anything. You don't "have" to go to any restaurant, you don't "have" to eat stuffing on Thanksgiving, you don't "have" to put salt in your food. If you don't enjoy it, then don't do it. What is there to "understand"?
This is the regular kind of dismissal that always comes up in these discussions. It's nothing more than subconscious delegitimization of vegans/vegetarians. I don't "need" to "replicate meat dishes". But (and this may surprise absolutely no one) things like shepphards pie or buffalo wings or tuna sandwiches taste good. That's the root of the whole problem. If these things didn't taste good, then there wouldn't be a monstrous industry of industrialized mass incarceration and slaughter constructed for the sole purpose of providing the meat of billions (billions) of animals every year to North American mouths. What's so hard to understand about someone wanting to enjoy the experience of eating a meatloaf without meat? There's precisely nothing inconsistent, mysterious, or whacky about that.
TLDR: cheese tastes good; the dairy industry is horrific. Cheese without dairy = problem solved. Where's the mystery?
Wed, 2016-02-10 23:02
#33
Timebandit
If you eat an egg, will it help restore your sense of humour? I can "understand" (not sure why we're using quotation marks, but happy to play along) wanting to eat meatloaf, the problem is that vegan meat substitute loaf tastes nothing like actual meatloaf and is therefore sad and pointless, unlike a dish that isn't pretending to be something it's not. Likewise the vegan "cheese". That's nowhere near cheese.
Thu, 2016-02-11 00:09
#34
If you eat an egg, will it help restore your sense of humour? I can "understand" (not sure why we're using quotation marks, but happy to play along) wanting to eat meatloaf, the problem is that vegan meat substitute loaf tastes nothing like actual meatloaf and is therefore sad and pointless, unlike a dish that isn't pretending to be something it's not. Likewise the vegan "cheese". That's nowhere near cheese.
If you don't like it, then don't eat it! There's nothing baffling about that. Your personal taste is of no interest to anyone. What I'm taking issue with is your dismissal of vegan versions of traditiona meat dishes as being incomprehensible, pointless, and sad. It's food, dude. What's the point of garnishing a salad? Anyways, you've obviously never been to good vegan comfort food restaurant.
As for my sense of humour: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Battery-farm.jpg
My sense of humour trails off in the domain of extreme cruelty.
Thu, 2016-02-11 00:27
#35
Timebandit
I've been to many kinds of restaurants in many corners of the world and am game to try most things (drew the line at scorpions, though). Even many vegans will admit that meat substitutes tend to be weird, unpalatable and not at all like what they're imitating. What I find absurd about it is that they tend to be made of foodstuffs that are actually quite good when they're not being used to imitate meat. It just strikes me as odd, and the self-righteous hectoring doesn't boost your argument. But it does support the idea that food and religious thinking aren't so far apart. :)
Thu, 2016-02-11 01:10
#36
It blows my mind that people drink diet coke. I mean if you want coke, just drink coke. If you don't want to drink coke, why make up some weird fake coke? Why not just not have any coke? Clearly these people who say they don't want to drink coke have some pretty deep-seated subconscious, coke drinking needs. How much are they lying to themselves while they guzzle down that "diet coke"?
Thu, 2016-02-11 01:14
#37
Some veggie dogs and veggie burgers aren't bad. And sometimes I like checking out vegetarian Chinese restaurants that have a lot of mock pork or mock fish or mock chicken. Sure, eating some salty bit of prepared TVP or gluten or soy or whatever it's made out of isn't the same as eating meat, but I enjoy it sometimes anyway.
Thu, 2016-02-11 01:16
#38
If you're a diabetic and you want something fizzy, then diet pop can be good. Tap water is best though.
Thu, 2016-02-11 07:25
#39
I'm drinking a somewhat long espresso right now. The first coffee of the day is such a pleasure. Yes, of course tap water - or even better water from a spring, in the countryside - is what best satisfies thirst.
Timebandit, I've actually had very good vegetarian "meaty" food in Amsterdam; the "Vegetarian Butcher" now has branches in many European countries, and I don't think most of the clientele is vegetarian - they just want to eat less meat. I think this started in the Netherlands with the non-pork versions of the Rookworst (smoked sausage - a big u-shaped sausage similar to Polish Kielbasa) which is mandatory in the stamppot, a national comfort food dish - potatoes mashed with kale, similar to those Irish and Scottish dishes made with what they had. There are now kosher and halal rookworsts, and vegetarian ones. And vegetarian leverworst (note Dutch word a bit different from the English and German versions). I certainly find that more digestible than the pork fat version, and it tastes pretty much the same - the taste is mostly the spiced and aromatics, such as onions. https://www.vegetarianbutcher.com/
Buddhist vegetarian "meat" is an old Asian tradition - yes, as you say, it has religious origins, but so do a lot of other palatable foods.
Thu, 2016-02-11 08:54
#40
@ TB
It's not the science around GMO that I am so concerned about.
It is the wisdom of growing our food in poison - the pesticides and herbicides the GMO tweaking is designed to allow them to survive - simply because the science works.
And that large companies can legally "own" corn, wheat and other staples, push their version of it on all farmers because they control the market, prevent farmers from saving and growing their own seed.
And if a farmer who doesn't buy in and some pollen happens to drift into his field, he gets sued.
I visited a friend last spring who lives in a canola-growing area. Her garden sprouts barely get out of the ground before they are devoured by the flea beetles that used to eat canola.
So yeah, it works all right.
Thu, 2016-02-11 10:48
#41
Yes, that is the same kind of worries I have about this type of production. And monoculture.
Thu, 2016-02-11 12:03
#42
So, under the current regulations protecting "creeds" in the workplace, can a pharmacist with religious objections to birth control refuse to sell condoms or contraceptive pills?
If so, then I see no reason that the same priviliges should not be extended to ethical vegans. And if not, I don't see why vegans should be getting something that other "creeds" haven't been getting.
And, apart from which creeds are actually getting what, I think that any of our "vegan-as-a-protected-creed" advocates here should also be supporting protection for anti-contraceptive creeds, not to mention a host of other beliefs.
And I wouldn't buy the argument along the lines of "Well, eating meat is cruel, but blocking sperm in a condom isn't". It seems to me that the protection is being given on the basis of how authentic the belief is, not on how cruel the relevant practices are.
Thu, 2016-02-11 15:39
#43
So, under the current regulations protecting "creeds" in the workplace, can a pharmacist with religious objections to birth control refuse to sell condoms or contraceptive pills?
In employment law there's a concept of bona fide occupational qualifications but also a duty to accomodate on the part of the employer, to the point of undue hardship. I know that pharmacist cases have been litigated but I'm not sure exactly how they've come out. Hypothetically if a pharmacist did not wish to dispense birth control, but there was another employee who was willing and able to dispense the medicine, then the employer could be required to accomodate the pharmacist's beliefs by assigning the other employee to fill all the birth control prescriptions while the objecting pharmacist did other work to make up for it. On the other hand in a lot of pharmacies there may be only one pharmacist on duty at a given time so this may be impracticable. (Pharmacists are also professionally regulated so their regulatory college may have a view as to what they are actually "required" to do, although the regulator would also have a duty to comply with nondiscrimination law).
In the same vein another cook could prepare a meal or another waiter could serve a table if a vegan employee objected to the meal that was ordered. However the realities of the employer's business would also be considered, for example the Keg might be able to argue that its employees are required to prepare and serve meat since it's a steakhouse; alternatively it would be an undue hardship for them to accomodate the vegan employees because of how often meat was ordered and the difficulty of reassigning employees to other tasks all the time. On the other hand, though, maybe the vegan employee could be assigned to be the host/hostess (although this would necessarily cost him or her in terms of tips). If the case was actually brought, it would be up to a tribunal to decide.
Thu, 2016-02-11 15:41
#44
This, I hope, is the future:
[url=http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/20/opinion/sunday/nicholas-kristof-the-fa... Fake Meat Revolution (NY Times)[/url].
Before you express your revulsion at eating meat or dairy that was created in a lab, consider the alternative.
Thu, 2016-02-11 15:42
#45
Timebandit
It blows my mind that people drink diet coke. I mean if you want coke, just drink coke. If you don't want to drink coke, why make up some weird fake coke? Why not just not have any coke? Clearly these people who say they don't want to drink coke have some pretty deep-seated subconscious, coke drinking needs. How much are they lying to themselves while they guzzle down that "diet coke"?
I don't actually understand diet sodas, either. They taste bad, which negates the indulgence. No accounting for taste, though, some people like them.
However, with or without the sugar, it's still pop. Whereas soy-based meat substitutes are not meat, but supposedly meant to replicate meat. Which, IMO (and anyone can feel free to disagree, because it's just an opinion, not a universal truth), is absurd. Especially in light of the moral tenor of the conversation. Even during my period of vegetarianism, it seemed absurd.
Thu, 2016-02-11 15:50
#46
Timebandit
@ TB
It's not the science around GMO that I am so concerned about.
It is the wisdom of growing our food in poison - the pesticides and herbicides the GMO tweaking is designed to allow them to survive - simply because the science works.
And that large companies can legally "own" corn, wheat and other staples, push their version of it on all farmers because they control the market, prevent farmers from saving and growing their own seed.
And if a farmer who doesn't buy in and some pollen happens to drift into his field, he gets sued.
I visited a friend last spring who lives in a canola-growing area. Her garden sprouts barely get out of the ground before they are devoured by the flea beetles that used to eat canola.
So yeah, it works all right.
Oh, don't mistake me - there are still issues. Although there are actually fewer chemicals used on GMO than on other crops, there are still some environmental concerns, and I take those seriously. But the genetic modification itself doesn't seem to have resulted in "frankenfoods" that are terribly bad for you. And organic food isn't testing out nearly as superior to conventionally raised produce as has been claimed.
Thu, 2016-02-11 16:04
#47
Actually some years ago I went to a thanksgiving spread where there was a tofurkey. The gravy was far tastier than the meat one.
I love meat, but I also eat lots of tofu. I love gluten, and regularly make veggie patties. Done right, I think they are superior to meat in taste. Even moreso when you consider that if you eat it in quantity it IS more healthy for you than a lump of red meat.
That it is to replicate meat? I know they market it that way, but it really is an absurd concept, especially when you consider that many commercial burgers are half soy or grain. Even moreso when you consider that if all you do with meat is boil it, it is the most tasteless stuff in the world.
(edit)
I figured that was what you meant. Yeah, I have seen those uneaten corncob memes, and don't believe them either.
Thu, 2016-02-11 17:18
#48
Coke Zero is the best.
Thu, 2016-02-11 17:46
#49
Timebandit
I like the meme about the supposedly poisonous corn with bt engineered into it - such horrifying stuff! it's also a widely used organic pesticide. Likely all over the organic products in their fridges.
Thu, 2016-02-11 17:49
#50
Timebandit
Coke Zero is the best.
I rarely drink cola, except as a treat. I can understand wanting to cut the sugar and calories if you're a frequent pop drinker. I prefer orange juice cut with carbonated water. Still has some sugar, but not as much.
Thu, 2016-02-11 18:17
#51
or another waiter could serve a table if a vegan employee objected to the meal that was ordered.
I've suggested in other threads that if a pharmacist's religious beliefs prohibit them from taking birth control pills, then certainlly they shouldn't be forced to take birth control pills.
But moving a package of birth control pills from a shelf to a bag is not the same as taking birth control pills, and unless your "religious belief" is that OTHER PEOPLE shouldn't be allowed to take birth control pills, I find it really hard to see what the problem is. If you can put a bottle of penicillin -- or Viagra -- in a bag, you can put a pack of birth control pills in a bag too.
Similarly, if you're a baker who doesn't want to marry someone of your sex, no problem! I can't see forcing you. But if you can write "Happy Wedding, Steve and Pat" on a cake when Pat is a woman, you should also be able to write the exact same thing on a cake if Pat is a man, shouldn't you?
So I guess I'm finding it hard to see how a vegan would be unable to carry a plate of SOMEONE ELSE'S food, if that food doesn't meet their own dietary beliefs. Don't eat that food, just carry it to the table.
Even if you're the hostess, you'll still see it, and probably smell it. Are those better or worse than carrying it? Or will that be the subject of the next Charter challenge?