Black Lives Matter Toronto briefly halts Pride parade

bagkitty wrote:

Unionist wrote:

So nice to have butter-wouldn't-melt provocateurs involved in a conversation about Black folks being profiled and murdered by police.

 

So that is what the conversation is all about - I am so glad a straight male came by to inform us all. I will file that information with all the other things I have heard straight people tell me about the total irrelevance of Pride (based on their no-doubt deep and profound experience with the Toronto flavour of the event)... and don't concern yourself that my filing system is going to get clogged, I have both Draino and a plunger.

For years, you have reacted to my posts this way, and I honestly don't know why.

I know what it means to have family members murdered. The same police forces who slaughtered Roma, LGBTQ, mentally ill, and Jews, murdered my brother, my grandparents, my uncles and aunts, my cousins.

And because that is my lived experience, I have fought my entire life, as a worker in the union movement, against discrimination of all kinds - starting with the discrimination inherent in our own trade unions.

And that's why, when Black Lives Matters organizes and fights back against profiling, discrimination, and murder, I automatically support them. I do not question their tactics. I do not set their struggle against the struggle of other oppressed and exploited people. I see my duty as an unquestioning ally, the same as my alliance with LGBTQ people. Unquestioning.

I do not defend Jews first. I do not defend workers first. I do not defend trade unions first. Because there is no first among equals.

So why not chill out and stop attacking every single word I've said here for the past 8 years? Tell me where I've got it wrong. Just don't dehumanize me. I would never dream of doing that to you.

MegB wrote:

Pride in Toronto is so mainstream and corporatized that it really needed shaking up.

Seems people are saying the same about Vancouver.

Yet in places like Steinbach, it's still a breath of revolutionary fresh air. Context is everything.

So is the implication that those of us who think this demand will not work do not support the concerns of BLM? That we don't care about police violence or people being murdered?

We had a situation not too long ago in which a group demanded that rabble stop giving space to a blogger they considered offensive. Just because someone might agree about the content does not mean one has to go along with censoring someone who is in many things an important voice.

Sorry, it doesn't work. And even if this turn s into another symbolic bandwagon issue that sweeps the nation it won't work. Why? Read that Vancouver statement: cops are murderers and the oppressor until the point where we need them to do their job. As big a revolutionary (though completely symbolic) stand as this is it does nothing to stop the murders, and even less to help the dialogue needed to turn this around.

Quote:

For Vancouver’s upcoming Dyke March, Blain says Black Lives Matter is gathering a contingent of queer people of colour who will help them lead the march. The group was originally invited to participate a few months ago, and Dyke March organizers say both the shootings in Orlando and the intervention at Toronto’s Pride parade spurred them to ask Black Lives Matter to now lead the march.....

On July 12, the Vancouver Pride Society released a statement of its own saying it’s “deeply committed to understanding our role in creating safer spaces for trans people, Indigenous communities and people of colour through the Pride season and throughout the year.”

“That is why we continue to reach out to groups that reflect these populations with the intention of honest and respectful dialogue regarding inclusion, belonging, cultural safety and how individuals who experience intersectionality are included with more intention in the Vancouver Pride Society and our events,” the statement says.

“This includes reaching out to Black Lives Matter Vancouver after the Toronto Pride parade,” it adds.

[url=http://www.dailyxtra.com/vancouver/news-and-ideas/news/meet-the-queer-me... will lead Vancouver Dyke March[/url]

Quote:

Members of the black community in Ottawa are calling on police officers to leave their uniform at home if they plan on walking in the Capital Pride parade next month – a move the police union has criticized as “prejudicial.”

Leila Moumouni, a member of Black Diaspora, said police officers should come to the parade, but only in plainclothes. The uniform, she said, is a symbol of an “oppressive” institution that black people have feared for years.

“Be there as yourself, but you don’t need to be as a representation of an oppressive institution. It doesn’t need to be that. For me at least, I don’t understand the need for people who work in the police to be in uniform to celebrate Pride,” said Moumouni.

On Thursday, Ottawa Capital Pride held a media launch to announce details of the weeklong events leading up to the Aug. 21 parade. 

Capital Pride chair Tammy Dopson said she is monitoring what Pride groups in other cities are doing in relation to police presence and will consult with Ottawa police and the black community in the weeks ahead.

[url=http://www.metronews.ca/news/ottawa/2016/07/14/ottawa-police-asked-not-t... rights activists asking Ottawa police not to wear uniform in Pride parade[/url]

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:

If he did not have the authority to make an agreement then he should not have signed it.

Should they have:

a) stopped and convened an emergency meeting of the Pride Committee to debate these demands as a million people fanned themselves with newspapers and waited?

b) just told everyone who'd worked for months on their float, or who'd travelled from out of town to see their daughter march in her first Pride parade to go home, because this just isn't the kind of decision that can made made on the spot?

I've heard more than once that the BLM-TO members weren't "outsiders" but members of the LGBTQ+ community.  Do you suppose that any of them might have known beforehand that decisions about Pride aren't made by one man?

so you're more worried about people being inconvenienced and hot and think this inconvenience is more important than BLM's position?

answer your own last question and you might get a differing thought process.

swallow wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:

Anyhow, tar and feather me for saying it but I still fully support pride TO and think #BLM was out of line when they extorted the parade. From my little perch it really looks like #BLM doesn't like sharing the spotlight.

I fully support Pride Toronto in their commitment to make changes along the lines BLMTO asked for. 

It's not a "Pride vs. BLMTO" argument in the community. Only in the media. Within the community, there are conversations. As there should be. 

I've only seen the community from interactions online and easily accept that context is everything and I could be reading this stuff in the wrong context.

From what I saw it did appeaer to me that in a lot of cases it seemed like there was a pride vs BLMTO devide specifically anyone who critisized BLMTO was quickly and agressively ganged up on. Anyone not supporting BLMTO's action were called out for being racist, trolls, non-allies etc.. Some of the conversations got pretty nasty. [The conversation here at rabble is actually probably the least mean one I've seen.]   In one instance it looked like a young guy was upset with the way a thread was going and someone rhymed off some stats about black males being killed 15 times more than anyone else by police and he tried correcting it and pointed out:

1. a harvard study which stated there was no indication of racial bias associated with incidents in which cops fired their guns; and

2. stats show police shoot twice as male white people than black in the US*

I'm sure you can guess how well that went over.

If there is no arguments and only conversations in the community propper then I'm pretty happy to hear that.

* which of course isn't accurate in context  due to African-Americans making up only 15% of the population so in truth with those shooting stats African-Americans are over 300% more likely to be shot by police.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

It was a forced ultimatum, unionist. And it was deception and a betrayal of trust. It was also a brilliant move. My question was if it id indeed an issue as serious as wholesale murder, who cares about dressing it up and pretending it was not exactly what it was. As for your perennial shame game, not sure if you are ever going to figure out that some of us could care less what you think about us, as the issue at hand is a little bit more important.

i disagree with the framing of a "forced ultimatum" and "deception and betrayal of trust". i'd like to see it discontinued and saw for the bs it is.

mark_alfred's comment above, basically about, by your frame, then all protestors are bad for forcing an ultimatum on those they're protesting against is right. yours is bs.

protesting against the privileged who are sustaining the pratices being protesting against doesn't make the protestors bad for forcing change.

fk. if people bought into this it would mean there'd be no protests and NO change.

women and people of colour would'nt have been able to force the realization we're human too and equal to white men.

more importantly, in this context the LBGQPT wouldn't be where they are today in their journey to equality. it came and comes about through protests aka ultimatums. the ultimatum being we will continue this protest (parade, cross walk painting) until ALL people understand we're all equal.

setting up the framing you made means all FN's blockading for their rights are bad for forcing whites to give them their lands and rights back.

people who buy into your framing of this are imv the privileged wanting to keep their privilege.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Accepting a position of honour at the front of the parade, then turning around and calling down the organization that put you there is a deception. That they felt they had to force a public ultimatum rather than approaching them directly is a betrayal of trust. They never gave them the chance to consider a simple request. 

Some might go further and call it hypocritical; I don't, because clearly the whole point was to use this deception to shut things down.

I hate to agree with you Smith (kills your credibility eh :)  ) but I agree.  I just can't arcticulate it as well as you.

At the very core it was deception. 

The thread about Dallas . 

And at the most fundamental level, you don't recognize that joining a parade with the intent of stopping it is deception?

There is no more straightforward way I can lay it out.

Whether they had a good reason is a matter for debate. But I do not see how the nature of this tactic can be in any way.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

That they felt they had to force a public ultimatum rather than approaching them directly is a betrayal of trust. They never gave them the chance to consider a simple request. that is not how you act in a relationship of trust.

This is simply untrue, Smith.

Direct approaches, with simple requests, have been made for quite a few years, without success. Direct action now has the conversation on the table. 

Racialized communities have been making polite requests for years, and years, and at meeting after meeting after meeting. There is multiple info in this thread showing that, in fact. And yet, we keep being told that the BLM demands came out of the blue. They didn't; quite the reverse.

What has given you the impression that BLM and others had not previously "approach[ed] them directly"? Why do you think BLM and others "never gave them the chance to consider a simple request"? Because you state both these things as fact, both are false, but you state them with such utter serene confidence that it makes me wonder where your certainty comes from. 

..from a piece re black lives matters in the states. i belive it applies here as well.

quote:

I know many people believe that our criminal justice system can be “fixed” by smart people and smart policies. President Obama seems to think this way. He suggested yesterday that police-community relations can be improved meaningfully by a task force he created last year. Yes, a task force. I used to think like that. I don’t anymore. I no longer believe that we can “fix” the police, as though the police are anything other than a mirror reflecting back to us the true nature of our democracy. We cannot “fix” the police without a revolution of values and radical change to the basic structure of our society. Of course important policy changes can and should be made to improve police practices. But if we’re serious about having peace officers — rather than a domestic military at war with its own people — we’re going to have to get honest with ourselves about who our democracy actually serves and protects.

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:

so you're more worried about people being inconvenienced and hot and think this inconvenience is more important than BLM's position?

That's called a "false dichotomy" or a "false dilemma".  It's basically a rhetorical device that asserts that we MUST make one of only two choices.  "human rights versus safety from terrorism" is a popular example, as is the very simplified "you're either with us or against us".

magoo you should stick to being funny.

it's not. and you didn't have to explain to me what it was you were labeling me as doing. i made no for or against us statement.

i'm indicating ranking of priority of who is actually being inconvenienced in all the history leading to this situation. i'd say BLM are way more inconvenienced for every minute of their life rather than those being protested against who have to be hot for a bit.

they've been being ignored and not heard in what should be their own community. there's nothing disrespectful or wrong in their protesting actions.

i won't ever tolerate or even consider those who do this as being allies. i mean directly those who think they can dictate how and when it's proper etiquette to protest or demonstrate an action to lesson oppression and injustices against any non-white or marginalized peoples.

simple bs

[url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/pride-parade-vancouver-pr... queer groups are not marching in the parade to express solidarity with Black Lives Matter Vancouver[/url]

Quote:

In solidarity with Black Lives Matter Vancouver's protest of the Vancouver pride parade for including a police float, queer Muslim group Salaam and queer South Asian group Trikone are also sitting out this year's pride parade.

Cicely-Belle Blain, co-founder of the Black Lives Matter Vancouver chapter, said many queer people of colour feel excluded from the mainstream queer community. She said the request isn't an attack on Vancouver police or the Pride Parade specifically, but a matter of solidarity. [...]

Imtiaz Popat, coordinator of the Muslim queer group Salaam, said his group does not feel safe marching in the parade this year due to racist backlash in the wake of the Orlando shooting and the interruption of the Toronto Pride Parade.

"We decided that because of the racist backlash that we need to have our own march," he said. "We need to have our own space where we do feel safe."

"Pride is not talking to us. The city is not talking to us."

That march, the Two-Spirit Queers, Trans, Intersexed and Bisexual People of Colour Pride March, will be happening on Monday, the day after the main pride parade.

self delete

From that middle article:

Quote:

The department met last week with representatives of Black Lives Matter and the Pride Society, Fincham said Tuesday. As a result of those talks the department agreed not to have its armoured rescue vehicle in the parade, he said.

Good outcome, achieved by negotiation. Militarization of the cops is something worth fighting against, because for the most part it feeds into their being used for crowd control, rather than protecting people. If they want to appear friendly and part of the community, it sure doesn't help.

However, it is an ironic coincidence that cops in Orlando used the same kind of vehicle to break through the wall at the Pulse Nightclub. Maybe that was their motive for wanting to have it there in the first place. If so, it is also kind of tone deaf. Not really something fitting with the celebratory mood. 

(for those who think Pride is a celebration, anyway)

Well this is an interesting wrench:

http://www.dailyxtra.com/toronto/news-and-ideas/news/pride-toronto-confi...

Is it more reprehensible than the moral gymnastics they did to take the lead of the parade in order to pull this stunt?

Or is that okay because it is for the cause? But the oppressors... strictly  by the book.

... or not, since by the book he had no authority to sign anything.

Lessons of history need to be re-learned over and over again.

Quote:

When Pride’s board voted in 2010 to ban the phrase “Israeli apartheid” it became a flashpoint for participants to take to the streets and advocate for a Pride that was unabashedly political.  

“We probably ended up helping Pride get stronger and making [it] a much more community based festival than it was evolving into,” McCaskell contends.  

It’s an experience Pride Toronto has taken to heart. In an interview with NOW’s Jonathan Goldsbie in January, the group’s new executive director Mathieu Chantelois said, “For me, without the political aspect, there’s no Pride.”

6079_Smith_W wrote:

You think BLM-TO have a monopoly on what is considered "political", and that those of us who oppose exclusion are not?

No. I just find it profoundly abhorrent that in 2016 anyone remotely progressive would non-stop shit on BLM-TO for their modus operandi.

Quote:

Curious that in this case the question of banning is reversed. And that you seem to see his statement then as a reversal, even though in this case he is the one who is defending the principle fo inclusion.

I said the lessons of history need to be constantly re-learned. Pride Toronto took a horrendous pandering stand on QAIA (as did the ONDP caucus led by DiNovo, who to this day has never apologized for her anti-democratic stand). After the movement slapped them around a bit, Pride Toronto corrected their stand. And now - time to re-learn. It's not a matter of any individual. It's a matter of standing on the side of the oppressed. No matter how uncomfortable it may be, and no matter who threatens to cut off your precious funding.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Is it more reprehensible than the moral gymnastics they did to take the lead of the parade in order to pull this stunt?

Or is that okay because it is for the cause? But the oppressors... strictly  by the book.

... or not, since by the book he had no authority to sign anything.

Do you even have a clue about the issue? "Moral gymnastics"? - Do you not understand standing up for yourself?

this "stunt" - Is that what you call a peaceful call for action?

perhaps it shouldn't be such a divisive issue but a call to remember the movement.

and blm reminded us quite well who the real "oppressors" are.

and they march and control the parade.

women and men of the law who selflessly serve and protect us are more than welcome.

we should NEVER have to see their uniform in the actual parade until that uniform passes the test for enlightenment.