Russia 3

Proof that Canada and Russia are very similar, especially when it comes to democratically elected leaders.

Aleppo is the Stalingrad of the liberation of Syria. The Western and Gulf State funded terrorists are being beaten to a pulp. No wonder the Western MSM is full of wailing, fabrications, and so on.

Syrian Endgame: The Battle for Aleppo and ‘Plan C’

The Russian AF, along with other regional allies, has literally saved Syria from the blessings of Western "civilization" so amply demonstrated in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and so on.

Timebandit wrote:

IIRC, Russia helped make a big mess of Afghanistan long before the West was there. Didn't they fight there for what, 10 years? It was their Vietnam.

Interesting point but I think we should try to avoid seeing one cold war proxy conflict as related to one side and another to the other.

Both Vietnam and Afghanistan were Cold War conflicts. Worthy of note that both were on the border with the Communist side which leads to interesting questions about the dynamics of the US involvement in a state bordering on the other side.

The rationale for the Soviets in Afghanistan had as much to do with securing their border as it did with anything else. The Korean divide is also related to a border concern even today. China might have a lot fewer concerns bordering on a united Korean state if it were not for the US role in South Korea. It is quite possible that without the US being present, it is the North that would have collapsed as the Chinese would have been less motivated to retain it as a buffer state, no matter what it does. The chief function of North Korea for China is to keep the US military a little further away.

Timebandit wrote:

Right, okay. But the USSR propped up a regime in Afghanistan that got the ball rolling there - whether it was ultimately about securing their border or not. My point being that ikosmos has a habit of claiming utter purity on the part of the Russians and that is one instance where their hands are anything but clean.

Ok I am with you there.

I don't accept the idea that one of these super powers is innocent and the other is not. They are all three bullies -- including China. I reserve my sympathy mostly for the small countries who are getting screwed time and again.

The game of choosing the least bad of nasty superpowers is not one I like to play.

My residual sympathy for China is as a developing country with a massive population that has seen desperation and needs a better standard of living but I am not about to pretend that it is a nice kid on the block either.

Right, got it. The blessings from Russia to Afghanistan were a steaming pile of animal droppings.

Not the phraseology that I'd have chosen, but paints the picture well enough.

ETA: Hold up, isn't Russia bombing Syria, too? So they're saving Syria by bombing Syria, but the West is destroying Syria by bombing Syria. Unless the Russian bombs are full of whipped cream and cotton candy, I'm guessing that there's a little soot on their hands now, too.

Not sure how you're drawing that conclusion. Assad's regime and Daesh are both beyond horrible. My point here, though, is that you can't demonize "the West" for bombing and then declare Russia the good guys for also bombing. It's one big, shitty mess and Russia's as culpable for complicating it as anyone.

ikosmos wrote:

Patrick Armstrong's usual brilliance.

RUSSIAN FEDERATION SITREP 18 AUGUST 2016

Armstrong's sober analysis, his balanced reporting about Russia, the concise way he summarizes the facts, allowing the reader to investigate for themselves to the degree that they wish - all of this makes his reports just gold mines of information.

And it's nice to see that it's a Canadian doing this. Chew slowly! This is the good stuff.

Here's just a little taste.

Patrick Armstrong wrote:

DOPING. Read this. Even through the CBC’s bias you can see how completely the IOC rejected WADA’s report. Sue them, says this guy. Individually. Make them spend the rest of their lives in court.

Patrick's article on doping is written to an audience that presumably were already aware of the chronology of Stepanov. I think many people here and elsewhere may not have the benefit of that. The article acknowledges that she was central to doping and outlines her family connections to WADA but it assumes the readers already know the circumstances of her whistle blowing.

The way most of the media would have you understand it Stepanova had some crisis of conscience and blew the whistle on a doping scheme and then got punished for that.

Let's have a little closer look:

Stepanova is 30 years old. She was caught doping in 2013 and given a 2-year ban. A ban when you are 30 effectively ends your career. Stepanova was also not at the top of her sport anyway (the best she ever reached was a bronze medal at the Euro Athletics Indoor championship in 2011). When running she recieved prize money for a number of races. When caught the money had to be returned and her income dried up. She needed something to make money. She was involved in the documentary. WADA gave her family $30,000 to relocate to the United States). This was no crisis of conscience, she gave up no part of her athletic career as a whistle blower. It was already ended becuase she was caught.

So, in this context, you can see why she would not be allowed to compete.

By the way there is a translation of the Russian Olympic Committee response to the the WADA report -- might be good to ahve that here so I will copy that below:

“The accusations against Russian sports found in the report by Richard McLaren are so serious that a full investigation is needed, with input from all parties.  The Russian Olympic Committee has a policy of zero tolerance and supports the fight against doping.  It is ready to provide its full assistance and work together, as needed, with any international organization.

We wholeheartedly disagree with Mr. McLaren’s view that the possible banning of hundreds of clean Russian athletes from competition in the Olympic Games is an acceptable ‘unpleasant consequence’ of the charges contained in his report.

The charges being made are primarily based on statements by Grigory Rodchenkov.  This is solely based on testimony from someone who is at the epicenter of this criminal scheme, which is a blow not only to the careers and fates of a great many clean athletes, but also to the integrity of the entire international Olympic movement.

Russia has fought against doping and will continue to fight at the state level, steadily stiffening the penalties for any illegal activity of this type and enforcing a precept of inevitabile punishment.

The Russian Olympic Committee fully supports the harshest possible penalties against anyone who either uses banned drugs or encourages their use.

At the same time, the ROC – acting in full compliance with the Olympic Charter – will always protect the rights of clean athletes.  Those who throughout their careers – thanks to relentless training, talent, and willpower – strive to realize their Olympic dreams should not have their futures determined by the unfounded, unsubstantiated accusations and criminal acts of certain individuals.  For us this is a matter of principle.”

When it comes to punishing those found to have cheated, fair play makes sense but to include those who were never found to be guilty is a presumption of guilt that is repugnant.

Let's please stop with the nonsense that there was not widescale state sponsored doping going on in Russia

That's a given

Doping done on such a massive scale like was done in Russia, requires extraordinary penalties to try and stamp it out and if it means banning the entire country for a period of time so be it
Maybe then the clean athletes will put the pressure on Putin to clean up his act

Collective punishment is new. Widespread doping is not.

I don't see how you encourage compliance by punishing the innocent with the guilty or encourage fair play by treating the guilty no different from the innocent while providing no due process.

All of the allegations that are supported reference individuals and all can be sanctioned.

Punishing the nation by going after the individuals is not being a good sport.

There are already sanctions against the country and there could even be some from the IOC without the simplistic banning of the athletes. Like not allowing them to host in 2028 as they seem interested in doing.

Going after athletes who have not been proven guilty stinks and is unjustified.

Mr. Magoo wrote:

So would allowing them to compete as "independents" have been sufficient, from the indvidual's point of view?  No flags, no anthems, no proud country... but an individual athlete competing?

That's what WADA offered the Russian pole vaulter. "Fuck you", she said. And I can't blame her. Prove that someone has cheated, or STFU. This collective punishment ... that you have expressed your gushing enthusiasm for ... is just Nazi-like.

Christ, Magoo. Take your lumps and shut up.

No, they didn't prove shit, Magoo. Someone - who was already convicted of doping-related offences - after getting paid $30 K by WADA to move [and generously provided with a free lab in the good old USA] made unsubstantiated claims on the basis of which an entire track team was DSQ'd. 

McLaren is going to need a big hole to hide in. Once the lawsuits get through the courts, he's going to be using the cheap toiletpaper to get by.

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:

Magoo, by such remarks, you have effectively made your arguments worthless. Well done.

Meh.  I'll leave it to the market to determine the worth of my arguments.

Quote:

Punishing the nation by going after the individuals is not being a good sport.

...

Going after athletes who have not been proven guilty stinks and is unjustified.

So would allowing them to compete as "independents" have been sufficient, from the indvidual's point of view?  No flags, no anthems, no proud country... but an individual athlete competing?

I think that is a fair question. The issue would be how they get there-- if they cannot represent their country will their country pay. It might be reasonable to do what you suggest though becuase then it would be up to the country to decide and the athletes would blame them for it.

And this is the case with Kuwait athletes right now:

http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/rio-2016/the-ioc-banned-his-country-...

And when you think about it -- if they did this for Kuwait's athletes why not do the same for the Russian athletes?

If I were to speculate, I might say perhpas there were some conflicts of interest -- with the Russians not there other countries will get more medals.

Based on the fact that one set of sanctions with respect for individual athletes was picked for Kuwait it really makes you wonder why they could not do it for the Russians.

But there are other sanctions they could have had -- like the country posting bonds they would lose if later samples prove to be doped. 

But frankly the Russians have been embarassed by the scandal -- even making this public had an effect. So dealing with the individuals who were proven to be doping might have been enough.

The more I think about this the more unfair this handling seems to me.

OK, well, since you've decided to stick around, tell us about the "rogue nation" of Russia. Should they all just die or should some be allowed to live? And who decides? Maybe you could be in charge. Because freedom.

Quote:

Should they all just die or should some be allowed to live? And who decides?

Well, that escalated quickly.  I was just suggesting that I haven't really seen any evidence that Russia is at all embarrased by this.

What about you?  Are you embarrassed, on their behalf?  Or is it unanimous that a li'l doping is nothing to be embarrassed about?

http://m.dw.com/en/putin-shakes-things-up-in-the-kremlin/a-19487271

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:

Based on the fact that one set of sanctions with respect for individual athletes was picked for Kuwait it really makes you wonder why they could not do it for the Russians.

I'm a bit confused here... isn't that basically what they did?  Even while allowing Russia (the country) to participate?  Because here's CBC's medal breakdown, as of a moment ago:

[IMG]http://i63.tinypic.com/fbx015.gif[/IMG]

Quote:

But there are other sanctions they could have had -- like the country posting bonds they would lose if later samples prove to be doped.

Unless those bonds were billions of dollars each, all that would do is set a nice low price tag on cheating.

If it costs $30 to park in a downtown lot all day, but the fine for illegally parking right outside my office is $12, I'll go with the $12.

Quote:

But frankly the Russians have been embarassed by the scandal

They have?  Are you basing this on their public contrition?  Because I'm hearing all about lawsuits!  And revenge!!  If you feel that their tail is really between their legs then show us.

 

Right -- this has certainly been great publicity for them. The games are funded by countries in large part for world prestige and that has been compromised obviously.

Yes, I agree, when there are over-reactions you do create a reverse argument for victimhood and that has been done. They have mitigated the damage becuase of this case. However they ahve lost the benefit they could have had and the Sochi games were tarnished. You cannot make a good case for saying that they got away with it without consequence -- even if the innocent athletes had not been banned.

As for your picture and comment related to the fact that the Russians do have athletes there and did win medals, I have two options for for my response:

1) Assume that you are willing to bluster and argue about a story that you really have absolutely no clue about. And, that you really are completely unaware that the Russians were banned from both track and para-olympic events and that their medal count reflects the total tack ban.

or

2) Assume you really do know but that you argue as if facts just don't exist whether you are aware of them or not and you do this just for the sport of arguing no matter how ridiculous that is.

Or

I can make no assumption as to whether you know and argue as if you don't or don't know and pretend to know about what you argue. After all the difference between the two is very minor to me.

Quote:

As for your picture and comment related to the fact that the Russians do have athletes there and did win medals, I have two options for for my response:

1) Assume that you are willing to bluster and argue about a story that you really have absolutely no clue about. And, that you really are completely unaware that the Russians were banned from both track and para-olympic events and that their medal count reflects the total tack ban.

or

2) Assume you really do know but that you argue as if facts just don't exist whether you are aware of them or not and you do this just for the sport of arguing no matter how ridiculous that is.

3) Assume I'm pointing out that clearly, the IOC did do what they did for Kuwait:  sanction some athletes and not others

What's funny is that you seem to think I'm arguing without knowing the facts.  Perhaps you're aware that it wasn't the IOC who banned the Russian track team, it was track's governing body the IAAF.  The IOC even stated that any Russian track athletes cleared by the IAAF could compete under the Russian flag rather than as neutrals. 

And the IOC doesn't oversee the Paralympics, the IPC does. 

Quote:

What am I supposed to think when you make bigoted remarks

Feel free to "flag as offensive" then.  But seriously, didn't you start a thread called "The United States of Stupid"??

Is Putin planning to broker a peace deal between Israel and Palestine?

Quote:

Egyptian President Abdel-Fattah al-Sissi said that Russian President Vladimir Putin has expressed a willingness to host Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas for talks in Moscow, Egyptian media reported on Monday.

Sissi’s remarks came as Israeli and Palestinians officials reported unsuccessful efforts on the part of European officials to try and arrange a similar summit.

“The Russian president has informed me that he has invited Palestinian President [Abbas] and Prime Minister Netanyahu for a meeting in Moscow,” Sissi said.

“Egypt supports these efforts and both sides are urged to participate and respond positively to the initiative for the sake of finding light at the end of the tunnel for Palestinians and establishing their state alongside Israel.”

According to Sissi, “Egypt’s relationship with both sides, Israelis and the Palestinians, permit it to play a central role in the attempt to renew the diplomatic process.” Nonetheless, he said, Egypt cannot be solely responsible, but will rather be “that which convinces the sides that if peace will be attained light will shine on the entire region.”

Haaretz reports ...

Those sneaky, sneaky Russians! How dare they! Everyone "knows" the US is the "invaluable" country, without which nothing (of substance) can be done! Why didn't they ask for American "permission" ? Go to your room! Bad, bad Russians!

And what's that under your bed? A Russian! Hilary "McCarthy" Clinton says so!

Hey Russia has contacted ET

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/1691369/russian-astron...

But Russia doesn't do wholesale sports doping sure they don't

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/05/politics/obama-putin-syria-ceasefire-talks...

Shocking Russian "election" - controversy, interference by Putin, hacking, attacks on the vital bodily fluids of the precious liberals, endless and suspicious activities of the KGB ... I mean FSB (same thing!) ... disappeared journalists, broken fingernails of Western reporters ...

bwa ha ha ha. Just kidding. There's none of that shite. That's why the Western MSM is dead silent about elections in the Russian Federation.

Here’s why there’s a Western media blackout about Russia’s parliamentary elections

The contrast between the Russian elections and the two-ring circus in the USA is pretty noteworthy. Especially since everything wrong in the US is pretty well.... all together now ......Putin's fault !!!!!!"

I'm predicting a modest uptick for the Communists. It won't be reported on in the MSM. Because freedom.

RT is there, but so is the Washington Post, Fox News, CNN, etc. etc. Not that their coverage will be "fair and balanced," but a "blackout" it ain't. 

It must be emphasized, despite all the talk of Putin´s managed election, that Russia is a federation of 88 entities, each of which send 2 elected delegates from their regional parliaments to the Council of the Federation, which does have considerable powers......

How much so, would be an interesting discussion!
Especially as some of us recognize the necessity of developing decentralized but federalized regional autonomy to regenerate a real democratic system....