NDP leadership race 3

Mighty Middle wrote:

Left Turn what about what Thomas Mulcair says about PM not being an entry level job?

I don't cxmpletely ignore a candidate's resume when deciding who to support for leader, but I put more focus on a candidate's policies and their ability to commtunicate them and connect with voters.

ETA: Those who voted Liberal in 2015 clearly didn't do so because of Trudeau's resume.

Mighty Middle wrote:

Left Turn what about what Thomas Mulcair says about PM not being an entry level job?

So we are going to compare an entitled drama teacher with a guy who got a biology degree and then went on to become a practicing defence lawyer.

I am ok with that.

Mighty Middle wrote:

Left Turn wrote:

I think the premise of your question is flawed. All other things being equal, yes I would generally chose a more experienced candidate over a less experienced one. However, all other things are rarely equal in politics, and I'm not prepared to have candidate's experience levels trump all other considerations.

I'll also note that I'm not supporting Jagmeet Singh at this juncture, because everything I've seen suggests that he's more style over substance.

OK thanks for that. But don't think the Liberals WON'T play that soundbite by Mulcair IF Jagmeet becomes leader during an election campaign.

Why? The 2015 election will be old news no matter what was said. Jagmeet wouldn't be held responsible for Mulcair's words. The line didn't work for Mulcair because it was weak and has proven to be erroneous. Whatever shortcomings Trudeau has revealed he has proven himself saavy enough to be PM therefore so could Jagmeet.

Sean, using drama teachers as a slur reflects on you not Trudeau and he taught math although he did replace a drama teacher that was on leave for awhile. Is that something he should be ashamed of?

Left Turn wrote:

[url=https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/michael-chessum/canadas-corbyn-sid-ryan...'s Corbyn?: Sid Ryan and the other North American left[/url]

Quote:

That may be about to change, if leftwing activists in the New Democratic Party have anything to do with it. The NDP is Canada’s Labour party, with a similar structure of trade union affiliates, and was briefly on course to win the 2015 federal elections. When it came a surprise third, members blamed the party’s centrist leadership and removed its leader, Thomas Mulcair, triggering a leadership race. Now, Sid Ryan, a leftwinger and one of Canada’s most prominent trade unionists, is considering a run for the NDP leadership.

...

The radicalism and direct action of Ryan’s past are matched by a number of his current policy proposals, many of which would be recognisable to a follower Corbyn or Sanders. Ryan’s supporters have drawn directly on Jeremy Corbyn’s pledge for a National Investment Bank, promising large scale public sector borrowing to build homes and create jobs. He promises to make the NDP “the centre of popular resistance to neoliberal policy”, linking the electoral project directly to social movements. Much like Corbyn’s offer for ‘left behind’ Britain, Ryan’s platform directly addresses the rust belt – promising to reverse decades of free trade agreements and underinvestment.

That article points out that "Ryan has run and lost five times for the NDP at provincial and federal level", while failing to mention that he's not bilingual, which most of us agree is a requirement for federal leadership in Canada.

He'd probably be strong as leader of the Ontario NDP, but on a federal level Sid Ryan is a complete non-starter for me.

R.E.Wood wrote:

Left Turn wrote:

[url=https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/michael-chessum/canadas-corbyn-sid-ryan...'s Corbyn?: Sid Ryan and the other North American left[/url]

Quote:

That may be about to change, if leftwing activists in the New Democratic Party have anything to do with it. The NDP is Canada’s Labour party, with a similar structure of trade union affiliates, and was briefly on course to win the 2015 federal elections. When it came a surprise third, members blamed the party’s centrist leadership and removed its leader, Thomas Mulcair, triggering a leadership race. Now, Sid Ryan, a leftwinger and one of Canada’s most prominent trade unionists, is considering a run for the NDP leadership.

...

The radicalism and direct action of Ryan’s past are matched by a number of his current policy proposals, many of which would be recognisable to a follower Corbyn or Sanders. Ryan’s supporters have drawn directly on Jeremy Corbyn’s pledge for a National Investment Bank, promising large scale public sector borrowing to build homes and create jobs. He promises to make the NDP “the centre of popular resistance to neoliberal policy”, linking the electoral project directly to social movements. Much like Corbyn’s offer for ‘left behind’ Britain, Ryan’s platform directly addresses the rust belt – promising to reverse decades of free trade agreements and underinvestment.

That article points out that "Ryan has run and lost five times for the NDP at provincial and federal level", while failing to mention that he's not bilingual, which most of us agree is a requirement for federal leadership in Canada.

He'd probably be strong as leader of the Ontario NDP, but on a federal level Sid Ryan is a complete non-starter for me.

Leaders who support neoliberalism are a complete non-starter to me. I really don't see the point of the NDP if they won't oppose neoliberalism. The NDP will not win an election by being slightly different than the Liberals.

There is virtually no chance that the NDP will win in 2019 although the Conservatives have a shot under O'Leary. Therefore, to me, the NDP would do better to concentrate on the longterm assuming the NDP doesn't want to win just for the sake of winning and governing like Liberals.

Ryan would need a very strong "vice-leader" to handle debates in French and promotion of NDP policy in Quebec. With that Quebecers would support the policy that most benefits Quebec.

Elections are more about money than language even in Quebec.

As long as the NDP supports neoliberalism or refuses to fight it I don't think they have a hope in hell of winning.

quizzical posts = vacuous

quizzical wrote:

personal attacks pondering?

i guess if all else fails

I didn't say you are vacuous I said your posts are vacuous. There is no policy against honesty.

This:

quizzical wrote:

pondering's posts = Liberals are worried

is a vacuous post.

vac·u·ousˈvakyo͞oəs/adjectiveadjective: vacuous

1. having or showing a lack of thought or intelligence; mindless."a vacuous smile"synonyms:silly, inane, unintelligent, insipid, foolish, stupid, fatuous, idiotic, brainless, witless, vapid, vacant, empty-headed; Moreinformaldumb, moronic, brain-dead, fluffy, fluffball "that vacuous laugh of his drives me nuts"antonyms:intelligent
   • archaicempty.

The post was directed at me, I responded. Now you want to play the victim. Your attempts to start a flamewar are doomed to failure because they are vacuous.

Go ahead and report me for calling your vacuous posts vacuous.

More details have come out from the party about the upcoming series of leadership debates:

The first debate is less than a month away — March 12 in Ottawa — and will be bilingual. A second bilingual debate focused on youth issues is scheduled for March 26 in Montreal.

The party will hold off on federal leadership events during an anticipated provincial election campaign in British Columbia, with that province expected to vote on May 9.

Then, leadership candidates will cross the country for four summer debates, a party source told the Post. The party expects to hold debates in Sudbury May 27; in Halifax June 10; in Saskatoon July 11; and in Victoria Aug. 9.

Two further debates will cap off the leadership race: In Montreal, an all-French debate will be held Aug. 27, followed by an all-English debate in Vancouver Sept. 10.

The last event before voting begins is a “showcase” in Toronto Sept. 17. All candidates still in the race at that point will have a chance to pitch their case to be leader, with a speech and the opportunity to show a video.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/still-just-on...

I think it will come down to Singh, Angus and Caron as the top tier with Julian and Ashton back.  Little enthusiasm for the latter two.

Ryan is a non-starter.  And Angus' French isn't quite up to par.   

Caron is an interesting choice and may surprise a lot of people.  Very authentic and not flashy.

Singh is flashy like Prime Minister Zoolander but he uses that, along with social media, to actually engage voters on the issues.  Not "please love me" like our prime minister.  

The question is... will Canadians be tired of all flash with little substance over time and look to someone more opposite of Trudeau?  If so, that could be Caron.  Hard to know.

Hunky_Monkey wrote:

Singh is flashy like Prime Minister Zoolander but he uses that, along with social media, to actually engage voters on the issues.  Not "please love me" like our prime minister.  

The question is... will Canadians be tired of all flash with little substance over time and look to someone more opposite of Trudeau?  If so, that could be Caron.  Hard to know.

Hunky_Monkey wrote:

They're not airhead dilettantes unlike our prime minister who did little with his life before wanting to play politics and become prime minister. 

And it is those type of personal attacks towards Trudeau that vaulted him into the PM chair. The more you attack, the higher his likeability numbers go up. So if you keep on bashing him personally, he will be PM for a very long time. Focus groups comissioned by Conservatives found this out, which is why they had to switch from "In over his head" and throwing every insult out there to "Just Not Ready" and adopt a softer tone. But it seems both the Conservatives and the NDP supporters are still not grasping this.

The only way to take him down is to discuss POLICY and leave  the personal attacks out of it.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

It was WIDELY reported that he had been a drama teacher.

Not being hostile, but there is no excuse for not checking your facts. You hold people to a very high standard here on rabble to be as accurate as possible. You also need to be held to the same standard, It is that simple.

At this point it seems a bit...irrelevant to bring up Trudeau's background.

It's not like anyone running against him in 2019 will be able to play the "experience" card.  Right?

Quite a good break-down of the voting process for the leadership here, along with speculation that Angus will officially announce on the 26th:

Angus could be the next contender. While he has so far only said he was contemplating a run for the job, a posting Friday on his Facebook page for a party in Toronto next weekend left little to the imagination.

"Come out and get active in what will be one fantastic and wild ride," the invite reads.

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2017/02/17/new-democrats-may-switch-vot...

Mighty Middle wrote:

But first you are say

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

So we are going to compare an entitled drama teacher with a guy who got a biology degree and then went on to become a practicing defence lawyer. I am ok with that.

Then you say

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

He was reported as a drma teacher first in the list in the news.

But actually it wasn't in the news that reported this. It was only in Conservative attack ads. Hence referring to him as "substitute drama teacher" as he was taking over for someone on Maternity leave.

In fact there is ZERO news story or news report that listed him as just a "drama teacher" other than the Tory attack ads.

The problem with negative advertising is that when you hear something over and over and over again, you think it is true and you tend to forget where you heard it. But no news organization said he was just a drama teacher.

Why the hell should I bother responding when you are holding me to a stupid standard and you won't even bother to go to the link I provided? I could get 10 more citing him as a drma teacher from the media but you just aremn't worth it.

In any case the difference between subjects in the three years of teaching experience makes little difference.

And I said he was a drama teacher which I do know was true. I did not say he was just a drama teacher.

You are quite the one with your double standards.

What I said was incomplete. I AM FUCKING SORRY. OKAY??????

It was not wrong.

And the difference was not significant unless YOU think it is which is a different question.

I could have said high school math with a Lit degree. so what???

Do you not have something better to do?

Mighty Middle wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I am sorry that I fell into the trap set by MM as that is what it sure looked like.

Well I'm sorry you think there was a trap, because there wasn't

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

The most important issue is policy and abilities. The fact that Trudeau is an entitled silver spooner is more relevant than what he taught in the three years he was teaching.

Again this is the problem that NDP supporters are falling into again. You keep underestimating Trudeau. The only way you are going to make headway is to discuss policy and the differences between the NDP and Liberals.

Using personal attacks against him, even if you think it is true, only boosts his numbers. The Conservatives figured this which is why they had to change tactic and stop the personal attacks against him. By becoming the party of the tax payer.

Once the NDP stop mocking Trudeau and start focusing on the differences, then only can the party move forward. But if supporters continue with the Trudeau bashing, it only boosts his numbers and he will be PM for a long time.

I am not identified as an NDP supporter and have not been for some time. You probably remember those discusses back in the Terry Towel days.

I did not mock him You raised the comparison of his credentials and I pointed out that Trudeau was a school teacher (who the fuck cares what subject) compared to a person who studied and practiced law which is a fair point for people who will create law. Managing negotiations is another thing lawyers do.

I am not a fan of the legal profession to the point that I think it is superior to a teacher but it is a more significant preparation for politics than three years as a teacher.

You, like Terry Towel before you have this thing about claimed personal attacks that do not exist. You were the one who set up this comparison and asked for it. I would not have gone there at all without your question.

And I have been very, very specific about the policy differences and betrayals of the Liberals and Trudeau.

You are acting like an ass in this thread. You have also convinced me that MM=TT. You split the same hairs with your bs.

We are done here.

Mighty Middle wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

You are acting like an ass in this thread. You have also convinced me that MM=TT. You split the same hairs with your bs.

We are done here.

Because you were backed in a corner and was just doubling down to not admit that you made a mistake. Otherwise why be so defensive and use profanity? You took something about Trudeau teaching credentials and tried defending yourself over 200%.

You could of easily said "Oh I made a mistake" and leave at that. But you had to spread this over several threads to defend yourself over something so small.

That to me yells of someone who doesn't like to admit to making a mistake. Having to defend yourself over several threads.

The profanity is because you were being an asshole about it. What I said was not wrong it was just incomplete. The difference did not even make a big difference anyway.

You picked this with the comparison prepared to do this and I think that you planned this. Many people have refferred to TRudeau as a drama teacher over the years not corrected by you and then you do this.

I personally do not have a problem with drama teachers over maths teachers. Apparently this is a huge deal for you. You need to look at your own prejudice here.

My reaction was your dressing me down rather than simply adding the additional information. Everyone here in these threads adds additional informaiton and corrects things without being an utter jerk about it. You decided to be one. That's on you.

And again -- there is no substantive difference between three years teaching highschool math, social studies, drama or Literature or some combination of them all.

If you went after every person in this way here you would have a pissing match every time you posted. Is this the plan? Then you would want to change your handle again.

Mighty Middle wrote:

I thought you said your were done, yet here you go again defending yourself over something so miniscule. Which says to me thing bugs you more than it bothers me. Why not just let it drop?

Dropped. Now stop.

Hunky_Monkey wrote:

I think it will come down to Singh, Angus and Caron as the top tier with Julian and Ashton back.  Little enthusiasm for the latter two.

Isn't it a little early in the game to say how much enthusiasm there is for any of the candidates? For starters, only Julian has actually annouced that he is running for leader. Plus, I'd like for the candidates to have a chance to drum up some enthusiasm for their campaigns before we declare a lack of enthusiasm for them.

The alternative would be to make Signh the leader of the party based purely on this appearing to be the preferred choice of the chattering classes.

Regarding Peter Julian, I rather liked the content of Julian's campaign launch speech last Sunday, even if I wasn't terribly enthusiastic about the delivery. And I'll also note that the crowd at Julian's campaign launch seemed relatively enthusiastic.

Quote:

Ryan is a non-starter.

The qualifications required to be NDP leader, and by extension PM, are subjective. Different folks are free to have different ideas about what makes a good NDP leader and or PM, and I don't appreciate blanket statements that imply there is some sort of objective criteria by which we're all 'supposed' to evaluate the leadership candidates. [Note: You're hardly the only person here that's doing this, I just happened to pick your post as the place to rail against it]

I like the idea of picking a Bernie Sanders/Jeremy Corbyn type for the next NDP leader, and Sid Ryan seems to fit that bill quite nicely.

I understand if those who want the NDP to replace the Liberal Party by more or less becoming a clone of it, don't like the idea of Sid Ryan as NDP leader. I understand if even Julian and Ashton are too far left for this crowd. However, I do think it's dishonbest to declare these candidates as eithe 'unqualified' or 'unpopular' or 'non-starters' before they have any chance to prove themselves and attract support.

‘Got your back’: Charlie Angus officially launches NDP leadership bid with homage to punk roots

With an appeal to the economically and politically disaffected, Charlie Angus officially launched his NDP leadership campaign Sunday at the bar where he attended his first punk show at the age of 15.

At a concert-cum-campaign-launch in front of a few hundred packed into the Horseshoe Tavern, an institution in Toronto’s music scene since the 1940s, the Northern Ontario MP unveiled his long-rumoured bid with an appeal to voters behind the slogan “Got your back.”

Known as a passionate advocate for First Nations communities and the rights of indigenous children, Angus has served since 2004 as MP for the riding of Timmins-James Bay, which includes Attawapiskat First Nation. Before that he was a founding member of the band L’étranger, and remains the lead singer for the band Grievous Angels....

i would vote for him. i may get a membership.

Guy Caron enters race promising a basic income.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/guy-caron-ndp-leadership-1.4000796

I lied... I can post without moderator approval. Yay! 

"Ashton poised to announce NDP leadership candidacy next week"

Niki Ashton will announce next week she is going to run for the leadership of her party.  Ashton confirmed to the Free Press she will be leaving her duties as the party's critic for jobs, employment and the workforce shortly.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/ashton-poised-to-announce-ndp-lea...

Guy Caron seems promising. If so I may join up to vote for him. 

I posted Charlie's website info a couple of days ago but it never appeared. I'll try it again today to see  if I can post.

http://www.charlieangusndp.ca/