Talking about race with white people

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Sun, 2017-07-23 20:39

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Happy ending? That a guy is so terrified about what might have happened if he shot a white guy that he thinks it is better that he killed someone of his own race?

It's a happy ending in that what he feared didn't happen.

I suppose I can be terrified about what could have happened if I'd fallen off that cliff that time, but if I didn't fall, I think it's still a happy ending, isn't it? Or am I just to be forever haunted by my "what ifs"?

Quote:
I think you are missing the point of the story, which is that it doesn't matter how wealthy a black or Indigenous person is, they are always at risk of being killed just because of the colour of their skin.

Wat?

He shot an intruder. If he were to have been killed by that intruder it wouldn't have been because of the colour of his skin, it would be because it was HIS house that intruder chose.

Sun, 2017-07-23 20:48

#703

WWWTT

Almost a dozen comments about two robbers, one black and one white, black robber gets shot/killed. Shooter feels happy he shoots the black guy because because he's black and racism in the justice system. I searched for this story and couldn't find it so it's kind of sketchy for me to comment on it. But I will say this. I find it odd that nobody wonders why these people wanted to rob someone. Were they broke? Drug addicts? Mental health issues? This shows how deep and wide spread racism is. Nobody sees the robbers as victims of racism having to resort to robbery for whatever reason. Guess those robbers were really bad people that had no chance of being good productive members of society given the opportunity and deserved whatever they had coming hey?

Mon, 2017-07-24 00:06

(Reply to #704) #704

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Paladin1 wrote:

Canada has surprisingly strong home defense laws, so to speak. The problem is police can find other ways and reasons to charge you if you use a firearm to defend your life and family in your home. Were your firearms properly stored and locked? Where was your ammo and was it locked? Did you use a pistol or AR15 because they can only legally be used on a registered forearm range. Discharging a firearm in the city limits.

You can shoot (and kill) a home intrder in Canada but it runs a very real risk of bankrupting you.

Is this the part of the thread where we sympathize with Gerald Stanley for shooting Coulten Boushie with an unsecured handgun?

Mon, 2017-07-24 08:18

(Reply to #705) #705

Paladin1

Timebandit wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:

Canada has surprisingly strong home defense laws, so to speak. The problem is police can find other ways and reasons to charge you if you use a firearm to defend your life and family in your home. Were your firearms properly stored and locked? Where was your ammo and was it locked? Did you use a pistol or AR15 because they can only legally be used on a registered forearm range. Discharging a firearm in the city limits.

You can shoot (and kill) a home intrder in Canada but it runs a very real risk of bankrupting you.

Is this the part of the thread where we sympathize with Gerald Stanley for shooting Coulten Boushie with an unsecured handgun?

I can't tell if you're baiting me, getting a dig in or asking an honest question so I'll assume the best and answer honestly. I checked a couple articles and see he is being charged with unsafe firearm storage but I don't see what type of firearm he used. Under certain circumstances the law and courts have provisions for Canadians to have insecure (and I believe loaded) firearms such as if they live on a farm and need it to quickly shoot predators that are killing their stock or someone who lives in the wilderness and has a real threat from wild animals.

If this guy used a handgun and it was stored insecurely he is going to have a much harder time justifying why it was loaded. Handguns are classed as restricted and have stricter storage laws (stricter laws than guns that can disable aircraft or armored vehicles, believe it or not).

On a side note the RCMP and police sometimes (id say often) don't seem to understand Canadian gun laws and while they charge someone, it doesn't stand up in court. However the person charged is still out thousands of dollars and even a charge that doesn't stick is in itself a form of punishment.

Ian Thompson had to remortgage his house and almost claim bankruptcy for firing warning shots in the air towards people who were litterally throwing moltov cocktails at his house. I'm not sure the race of the 4 people who attacked him.

Mon, 2017-07-24 09:11

#706

6079_Smith_W

I don't know. Sympathy - even of the shooter - requires some sort of emotional understanding. Sure it's all about how you can't just shoot them anymore without it affecting your portfolio, or how popping that crook is a happy ending, or how it is really just about class.

Mon, 2017-07-24 13:50

#707

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Paladin, it was a handgun. Please read the news report:

http://globalnews.ca/news/3025416/court-documents-describe-deadly-sask-s...

I personally do not think handguns should even be legal. Nobody outside of law enforcement needs a handgun.

I think the fact that Stanley had a loaded, unsecured handgun in his shop complicates his defence. It should. It means he was prepared to shoot before asking questions - and I guarantee you, I could have pulled into that yard without getting shot. I've done it many times if I needed to ask directions in rural Saskatchewan.

ETA: The speed with which you sought a "reasonable" explanation why a white guy would have a loaded, available firearm with which to kill a trespassing Indiginous man is a perfect illustration of why this thread is a sewage lagoon.

Mon, 2017-07-24 15:57

(Reply to #708) #708

Paladin1

Timebandit] Paladin, it was a handgun. Please read the news report:[/quotes] Thanks for taking the time to find that and post it. [quote wrote:
I personally do not think handguns should even be legal. Nobody outside of law enforcement needs a handgun.

Totally get that. I enjoy shooting handguns but I understand and respect that others don't like them. I doubt we'll sway each other when it comes to owner ship. I don't think anybody should be allowed to smoke

Quote:

I think the fact that Stanley had a loaded, unsecured handgun in his shop complicates his defence. It should. It means he was prepared to shoot before asking questions - and I guarantee you, I could have pulled into that yard without getting shot. I've done it many times if I needed to ask directions in rural Saskatchewan.

The story suggests that stanly put bullets into the magazine in which he would have had to load the magazine into the handgun. It doesn't say the gun was loaded.

"In his own statement to police, Gerald Stanley said he went into his shop, got his handgun and put bullets in the magazine. Stanley said he shot two rounds into the air to scare the group away"

I'm sure you could have pulled into the yard without getting shot. Yet the story you provided me gives references about how the vehicle alledgedly swerved towards the people. It also mentions them going through the truck and starting up a quad. Also mentions them getting a call from the neighbours minutes before about the same coloured black SUV and an attempted theft. *IF* that's true then maybe you pulling into the yard and doing the same thing might increase your chances of getting shot?

"The document says the father and son called police and yelled at one of several passengers, who jumped back into the SUV. They told police the vehicle began to drive off before it swerved at them."

Quote:

ETA: The speed with which you sought a "reasonable" explanation why a white guy would have a loaded, available firearm with which to kill a trespassing Indiginous man is a perfect illustration of why this thread is a sewage lagoon.

Not too sure what you're getting at here. Well, I think I know but I don't want to assume ;)

I responded to you 8 hours after you posted, before leaving for work in the morning which I'm apt to do. Or after work, like now. I didn't realize it was a handgun, I only offerend a comment about how firearms are left loaded under some circumstances. Fear of human intruders as far as I am aware is not a viable reason in our court system/law (well except for in one case where a drug dealer kept a loaded gun and his lawyer argued something about his human right for protection or something). I'm all for storage laws, primairily to helpnprevent injuries to children and due diligence against thieves.

Shooting someone trying to steal your car or your stuff is illegal and not self defense. Shooting someone whos in a position to run you over is a stronger defense for self-defense. There is a lot of factors to this story which will decide how the verdict goes.

Mon, 2017-07-24 17:29

(Reply to #709) #709

Paladin1

Timebandit wrote:

I personally do not think handguns should even be legal. Nobody outside of law enforcement needs a handgun.

I think the fact that Stanley had a loaded, unsecured handgun in his shop complicates his defence. It should. It means he was prepared to shoot before asking questions -

Oh hell, thought this video might offer some counter-argument for your statement.

In this video a man enters a shop and without warning attempts to slit someones throat with a knife. He next moves to the cashier and begins stabbing them repeatedly. After another shopper tries to interviene and becomes the next target, the shop keeper pulls out a handgun and shoots the attacker. You'll notice his pistol is loaded. What do you think would have happened if the stabbed and bloody shop keeper tried to use his fine motor skills to open up a box of ammo then load a magazine with bullets, then load the magazine in the gun then begin shooting?

https://www.funker530.com/savage-knife-attack/

Not saying this is applicable to the story you posted, rather just an unloaded gun intended for self-defense is a bad idea. When you're being attacked you don't have time to ask questions.

Mon, 2017-07-24 17:38

#710

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

If the car was swerving toward them as soon as it hit the yard, he wouldn't have had time to retrieve a gun, never mind load it. I'm familiar with handguns - my ex's father was a firearms instructor for RCMP's Depot Division and I've used a handgun. Even with a speed loader, he'd have to be the fucking Flash.

There was considerable panic, I expect, when a white dude waving a handgun came out shooting before even addressing what the issue was - that might account for some swerving.

The salient point in regard to this thread is: I could have pulled into the yard and would have had a nice conversation. Boushie and his friends illicited gunfire. Whether Stanley aimed to kill or not is actually moot. He wouldn't have gone for the gun at all if it had been a car full of white people. I lived in Saskatchewan for over 40 years and I've spent time in rural areas. It's the most racist place I've ever been - and I've travelled through the Deep South in the US. We can quibble about guns and we can speculate until the cows come home, but I guarantee you, that young man is dead because he was Indiginous. And the reactions we saw from other rural Saskatchewanians on social media did nothing but confirm it.

And again - your immediate response is to defend the white guy who shot the brown guy. But you're not racist. I'm sure some of your best friends are brown.

ETA: I will not be drawn into the gun debate with you. The statistics are clear: If you own a handgun, you are far more likely to be shot with it than you are to shoot an intruder. Unless you are a law enforcement officer, a handgun is just a toy - a very deadly toy - and your reasons for having one are trivial.

Mon, 2017-07-24 18:08

(Reply to #711) #711

Paladin1

Timebandit wrote:

There was considerable panic, I expect, when a white dude waving a handgun came out shooting before even addressing what the issue was - that might account for some swerving.

Your posted story reads that they began to leave then swerved towards the people.

Quote:
The salient point in regard to this thread is: I could have pulled into the yard and would have had a nice conversation. Boushie and his friends illicited gunfire. Whether Stanley aimed to kill or not is actually moot. He wouldn't have gone for the gun at all if it had been a car full of white people.

You're convieniently leaving out parts of the story but you're right. He's a racist with murder on his mind. We shouldn't even give him a trial, he's clearly guilty.

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I lived in Saskatchewan for over 40 years and I've spent time in rural areas. It's the most racist place I've ever been

Why do you propose that is? Why is Sask so racist? Probably about 99% conservative right?

Quote:
And again - your immediate response is to defend the white guy who shot the brown guy. But you're not racist. I'm sure some of your best friends are brown.

Awe shit you caught me. My first reaction was clearly to suggest he was innocent, blame the FN and not post from a position of neutrality where I blamed neither party! It's about time I go clean my German luger, sharpen my hitler youth knife and do racist stuff. My best friend is actually orthodox Russian so feel free to insinuate some type of trump collusion by me too :)

Quote:
ETA: I will not be drawn into the gun debate with you.

Yea sorry about me bringing up the example of Gerald Stanley and handguns. And my personal feelings about them which have nothing to do with the debate or topic. I'm definitly not buying 3 more pistols for target practice, competitions and fun.

Mon, 2017-07-24 18:10

#712

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Why don't you just cut out the middle man, draw the shades and wank directly? Because that's all it is.

Mon, 2017-07-24 18:25

#713

Paladin1

Are my sexual practices on trial now? Interesting. I can't help but think if I made comments about other members purported sexual interests I'd be banned eh? Don't worry. I'm okay with being the target of double standards =)

Mon, 2017-07-24 19:36

#714

6079_Smith_W

Funny. Somehow we are back to the poor white guys again.

Nah, nothing wrong with turning a comment about a terrible realization on the part of a black man forced to kill another black man into an academic chat about how much you will have to pay if you killed someone. And how great it is that we can do it. First thing I thought about is how I need to be prepared for that.

... oh, and how many guns I should have.

Well if we are going to talk about it you don't even have to get into justification. Pretty much everything else that happened around this killing reflects that same racism and white supremacy.

I have already mentioned that the newspaper article I saw immediately after was more about concern for property than about a dead youth.

Here's what the cops did to the family of the victim the night of the shooting after barging into the house without permission, searching all the rooms, waking children:

After a few minutes an officer tried to force a weeping Ms. Baptiste to her feet.

“He grabbed my wrist right here and he said ‘Ma’am, get yourself together.’ And I told him, ‘No,’” Ms. Baptiste recalled.

She was in denial, begging the officer to take her to the body so she could prove it wasn’t her son: “You’ve got the wrong person. That’s not my son lying out there. He’s not dead. That’s not Colten. It’s somebody else,” she told him.

He responded by asking if she was drunk.

“He said, ‘Ma’am, was you drinking?’ And I said ‘No.’ And then he smelled my breath,” she said.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/colten-boushie/article3245...

And here is how municipalities reacted, and what Colton's mother has to say about those laws

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/colten-boushies-mother-fea...

But, but... who is going to stand up and say something about their TVs and cars?

Mon, 2017-07-24 20:14

(Reply to #715) #715

Paladin1

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Funny. Somehow we are back to the poor white guys again.

Do you mean me the gun pervert nazi or the poor white guy from TimeBandit's story?

Quote:
Nah, nothing wrong with turning a comment about a terrible realization on the part of a black man forced to kill another black man into an academic chat about how much you will have to pay if you killed someone.

Again to me? If so I'm pretty sure I was speaking about firearm laws specifically and how a charge that isn't found guilty can still be a form of monitary punishment

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... oh, and how many guns I should have.

Zero

Quote:

But, but... who is going to stand up and say something about their TVs and cars?

White men everywhere, obviously.

Mon, 2017-07-24 20:08

#716

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Nah, nothing wrong with turning a comment about a terrible realization on the part of a black man forced to kill another black man into an academic chat about how much you will have to pay if you killed someone.

Was he "forced", Smith? Couldn't he have just chosen to share his priveleged possessions with that other man?

This is babble! You can totally say that he should have just helpfully got the other fellow a bag for the silverware, and the pious will nod, piously.

Tue, 2017-07-25 00:00

#717

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

It's a bit of a leap to go from shooting someone to helping them rob you. I can't help thinking there could be some middle ground. Now could you please stop playing silly buggers?

Tue, 2017-07-25 15:51

#718

6079_Smith_W

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/afn-indigenous-hate-speech-1.421...

Yup. And like all CBC Indigenous news pieces in recent years there is no longer any comment section because any reasoned discussion would be mobbed by racist trolls.

http://www.cbc.ca/newsblogs/community/editorsblog/2015/11/uncivil-dialog...

Wed, 2017-07-26 09:36

(Reply to #719) #719

Paladin1

6079_Smith_W wrote:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/afn-indigenous-hate-speech-1.421...

And like all CBC Indigenous news pieces in recent years there is no longer any comment section because any reasoned discussion would be mobbed by racist trolls.

http://www.cbc.ca/newsblogs/community/editorsblog/2015/11/uncivil-dialog...

Yup! Racist trolls and bigots who are intolerant toward those holding different opinions.

Wed, 2017-07-26 10:15

#720

6079_Smith_W

Nice try Paladin, but pointing out how completely stunned a comment is is not intolerance.

Besides, TB and I just talked about how we feel about shutting conversations like this down, so what are you whining about? That others dare to respond to you?

CBC shut down its comment section over persistent racist trolling. If you feel someone has violated guidelines or otherwise attacked you perhaps you should contact the moderator about it.

Sure I would prefer if those who aren't here to discuss a serious matter in earnest would quit the games and leave, but so far no one has stopped anyone from making this all about about hurt white feelings and white concerns.

Wed, 2017-07-26 18:09

(Reply to #721) #721

Paladin1

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Nice try Paladin, but pointing out how completely stunned a comment is is not intolerance.

Oh I love you guys and girls. I disagree and I'm a bad guy whos secretly racist and here to troll. I agree and I'm still a bad guy that either just doesn't get it or I'm being sarcastic and passive-aggressive. If I don't reply to a question or statement then I'm ignoring the issues. If I reply too fast then I'm trying to defend racists with abhuman speed. If I try and defend myself or suggest that I'm perhaps being held to a different standard then I'm playing the white male victim lol

Quote:
Besides, TB and I just talked about how we feel about shutting conversations like this down, so what are you whining about? That others dare to respond to you?

Well Smith I was agreeing with you and commenting about the bigotry in the comment sections. Something I've commented about (negative and horrible SM comments) numerous times here. Great job playing the white victim though, please forgive me for responding and agreeing with you.

Quote:
CBC shut down its comment section over persistent racist trolling. If you feel someone has violated guidelines or otherwise attacked you perhaps you should contact the moderator about it.

Well we both know how guidelines work here don't we. Just ask your best friend, who I'm sure is black or FN. But no I wasn't crying about guideline violations or reporting anyone. I was agreeing with you, it's happened in the past please don't be so shocked. Or defensive.

Quote:
Sure I would prefer if those who aren't here to discuss a serious matter in earnest would quit the games and leave, but so far no one has stopped anyone from making this all about about hurt white feelings and white concerns.

Maybe the issue here is that some members think they are the conviening and final authority on who is being serious and who is trolling? It seems like you and some others feel that anyone who doesn't see things the way you see them are wrong at best and trolling at worst. Constantly. And of course we come back to the same old "hurt white feelings" mantra. Because any white male that disagrees has hurt white feelings and their playing the victim. I think there are a lot of white feelings here that are on perminate hurt mode but mine aren't one of them.

Tell you and TB what, if either of you think I'm not here to discuss matters in earnest and am just trolling then say so and I'll kindly close my account. Just like that.

Wed, 2017-07-26 19:30

#722

Ken Burch

Paladin, you are illustrating why people of color are so often less-than-thrilled about white participation in discussions about racism:

The vast majority of the time, the white participation is dismissive, defensive, and meant to deflect.

It would probably go a lot better if those of us who were white agreed, in exchange for being able to participate, that it isn't ever OUR place, in any discussion of race, to claim that racism isn't a major problem, isn't a problem at all, OR that those who disagree(especially those people of color who almost always disagree) are making big deals out of nothing.

Our participation would be much more welcome, I think, if we were united in accepting the premise of the conversation.

It's not that much to ask, really.

And it's the only way those of us who are white can show respect to the people and issues involved.

Wed, 2017-07-26 19:29

#723

Ken Burch

(self-delete. dupe post.)

Wed, 2017-07-26 20:19

#724

WWWTT

Ok I'm going to make a comment here moving away from the current direction of debate. First the links.

http://www.matrixbookstore.biz/neanderthal.htm

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-04-26/say-what-humans-america-115000-ye...

No big pile of smoking gun evidence here, but there is some. Furthermore, I always felt that whenever something like this comes up, for some reason it dissapears super quick!

I'm under the impression that Native Canadians are not the original humans of the Americas. They are just the pre colonist humans. This goes back to the GG's comments.

Wed, 2017-07-26 22:19

#725

6079_Smith_W

I think we already have one thread hijacked with the argument about Indigenous people not really being Indigenous people.

And the GG had the good sense to apologize for his boneheaded comments.

Wed, 2017-07-26 22:48

#726

NorthReport

Bingo!

And thanks for your astute observations Smith.

Thu, 2017-07-27 13:22

(Reply to #727) #727

WWWTT

6079_Smith_W wrote:

I think we already have one thread hijacked with the argument about Indigenous people not really being Indigenous people.

And the GG had the good sense to apologize for his boneheaded comments.

Ya sorry you're probably right. I should start a new thread. Thanks for the input.

Thu, 2017-07-27 13:26

#728

6079_Smith_W

No problem, and thanks.

Fri, 2017-07-28 20:11

#729

6079_Smith_W

Cappo spoke this afternoon outside the Canadian Tire where he was allegedly assaulted. He made some very thoughtful comments about the racism Indigenous people face every day, and the limitations they have in being able to respond.

"The only way I can fight back is with a video. If I argue, I'm not going to get anywhere. If I try to return the abuse he's giving to me, that'll only put me in jail."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/confrontation-canadian-tire-r...

Sun, 2017-07-30 21:04

(Reply to #730) #730

Paladin1

edit-maybe later

Wed, 2017-08-16 12:04

#731

MegB

I'm going to close this thread for a couple of reasons. First, it's way too long. Second, if I have to read any more post with privileged white men saying what is or isn't racism, with so little knowledge of anti-racist initiatives, I'm going to puke. Y'all want to start another thread like this, knock yourselves out. Be aware that if you do, I will be watching it very closely.

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