Charlottesville Virginia :Car Plows Into Anti-Fascist Protesters

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JKR

WWWTT wrote:

JKR wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

josh wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

josh wrote:

What the hell does the KKK's formation in 1865 have to do with the Taliban government in 2001.

After NATO invaded Afghanistan the Taliban government became rebells. After the southern states lost the civil war, members of the southern states military formed the KKK.

Both groups are armed. Both groups use violence. Both groups have agendas. Both groups are racist towards others.

Now here's some differences. Taliban kills invading forces and other Afghanistanis who oppose. KKK kill who oppose. Oh wait that's a similarity  because the KKK views non whites and the US federal government as invaders! Sorry my bad!

And one was formed over 150 yeas ago, and withered away until being revived in the 1920s.  One of its strongest states was Indiana, a Union state.  It became not only an anti-black, but anti-Jewish and anti-Catholic organization.  And it never formed a government as the Taliban did in the last 20 years.  But they both roamed the earth.  So there's that.  So you can include the dinosaurs in your comparison.

Ya actually this isn't a match game. What I'm asking, is why can't the white racist momevent in the US (or anywhere else for that matter) be negotiated with? Negotiating with enemies is a reasonable peaceful approach, despite the violence caused by enemies. Also, this will always be a logical approach. But for some reason I do not see any such approach. Unless I'm missing something?

Could Africa Americans even conceive of negotiating their civil rights with the likes of the KKK?

what makes you think that taking away the rights of African Americans is the only thing that supremacist wants?  Have you had deep conversations with many? Perhaps there is something else? Perhaps there's something there that actually may be a common ground that everyone can agree on?  Or should we just assume right away it's impossible there can't be anything in common and don't even bother having an open communication from the start?

White supremists have the vote so they are already fairly represented. I see no reason to give them special status by entering into negotiations with them. In any case, this conversation has nothing to do with reality. The U.S is not about to negotiate with White-supremacists. Even Trump wouldn't consider it. But here on Babble we're discussing it? 

Someone said something earlier about silence being golden...

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

[.

Doug Woodard

CBC on Trump's latest and his staff's reaction:

http://www.cbc.ca/1.4248466

 

Rev Pesky

From WWWTT:

You find trying to find an end to violence to be funny? Ok so you don't think there's no room for negotiation dialogue or anything as such? The people who identify as white supremacist are not to be negotiated with. Haven't heard any suggestion yet about how to soften their perspective to be more inclusive.

​​As someone intelligently pointed out above, the neo-Nazi's and white supremacists have the right to vote. They are already included. They have the option of trying harder at the next election to put their agenda across.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

This man is more competent and more coherent than the bastard Trump.

josh

Shocking image of altleft attacking altright

https://mobile.twitter.com/Scott_Gilmore/status/897582269308653568

WWWTT

alan smithee wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

lol

https://twitter.com/tedlieu/status/896820870898786304

Very good question. Unfortunately,there is no plausible answer.

LOL ya that's what I said when I opened that link you provided and found that this guy is a former war pig that helped the US imperial killing machine impose it's corporate will on foreign nations!

Would you fuck off? I'm serious. I told you I'm done with you. Move on. I'll let others entertain interacting with you.You fuckin' prick.

WOW You got a real mouth on you hey buddy! 

What's the matter, I poked too many holes in that war pigs link that you were so proud of?

Did you think I forgot about you?Oh no no my friend,  I'm saving the best for you, here's one just for you alan smithee! Just for you!

http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2016/08/09/trump_s_swearing_si...

OK...that's it. I've been here a long time. I don't think you have. Let me tell you something,in all my time here I've flagged a post ONCE and I've never contacted the mods but I've had it with you. You keep provoking,you're going to really get me mad and I'm going to get banned from here for telling you what I really think.

I'm flagging you. And now I'm going to ask you once again, Please FUCK OFF. Stop replying to my posts. I can't block you,but I could get you suspended and gawd willing I will.

Could someone please let me know how to contact the mods? This new layout at Babble makes it impossible to block people anymore,impossible to flag comments and impossible to contact the mods. If anyone can help me out,I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

oh so you been here a LONGER time than me so now you believe you're entitled to more than I hey???? Tell you what, you keep insulting me, using foul language towards me, and I keep getting in your face! But On the other hand if you apologize to me, then you can make a fresh start and we can all get along. Either way I'm not going to be intimidated by an internet tough guy!

Uh..that's not what I was saying. And why the fuck am I still getting messages from you? I thought I blocked you. Clearly that option doesn't work.

I was not implying that I was more 'entitled' than you because I was here longer. I was implying that in all the time I've been here I've flagged a post ONCE and never went to the mods.NEVER.

You really know how to push someone's buttons but I guess that's what makes you a great troll.

As for being an internet 'tough guy' lol

Ask anyone hear if I'm honest. Please be my guest. I've always been honest to the letter.

And I will tell you this. You wouldn't dare push my buttons like this in person. You'd be picking your teeth off the floor and eating from as straw for a month.

Again,not being a 'tough guy'just telling the truth.

Now for the THIRD time. Would you PLEASE FUCK OFF and leave me alone. You're nothing but a cocksucking motherfucker and  punk ass bitch internet troll. You have the balls of a mosquito and what has become clear,an unhealthy obsession with me. You can suck my dick,motherfucker. And I know you'd enjoy it.

And in true Babble fashion,I'm going to get in trouble for what I just said. I thank you. But since I'm not in a postion to kick every tooth out of your head,I can only provide my opinion. Which you can take to the bank is honest. Unlike yours. You're a fantastic troll. I'm sure if you'd leave your parents' basement for 5 minutes,you'd understand the first time when I asked you to leave me alone. Apparently,you're too stupid to comply or just a predictable troll. Either which way,I bit.Thank you,dipshit.

You may be a talented cocksucker but you definitley are a master troll. Now fuck off,cocksucker. You have a huge bowl of dicks to eat. Get your work done.

LOL..Moaist...label yourself what you like. The reality is you're a cocksucker who blows donkeys in Tijuana for 5 pesos.

Threatening me with violence now hey? Making sexual references and implying that my sexual orientation is something to be ashamed of hey? Wow you're a real sad sad sad poster here on this site. I honestly feel real sorry for you brother! You really should just apologize. And try to make amends. I never imagined someone filled with so much hatred towards another poster would be here on rabble? Ya that's real funny that you called me a Trump supporter. Well either way I'm not backing down from a bully like you and if you think bullying another poster is going to get you anything? Let's just put it this way, sometimes we learn things the easy way, sometimes we learn things the hard way!

WWWTT

Rev Pesky wrote:

From WWWTT:

You find trying to find an end to violence to be funny? Ok so you don't think there's no room for negotiation dialogue or anything as such? The people who identify as white supremacist are not to be negotiated with. Haven't heard any suggestion yet about how to soften their perspective to be more inclusive.

​​As someone intelligently pointed out above, the neo-Nazi's and white supremacists have the right to vote. They are already included. They have the option of trying harder at the next election to put their agenda across.

ok so you don't feel that maybe white supremacists may be suffering from the same lack of inequality as other minority's? The same lack of access to education health care social services, you don't feel these issues can harbour violence and hatred? You're not interested in finding common ground. But you're a strong supporter of the American democracy and that someone's vote will solve everything likity split! Ok got you. Thanks. 

WWWTT

josh wrote:

Shocking image of altleft attacking altright

https://mobile.twitter.com/Scott_Gilmore/status/897582269308653568

perfect example of revisionist history! I never knew the military had a political left/right label? All I see in that link is war pigs.

voice of the damned

Smithee:

Is it utterly impossible for you to lay off the anti-gay slurs?

 

josh

WWWTT wrote:

josh wrote:

Shocking image of altleft attacking altright

https://mobile.twitter.com/Scott_Gilmore/status/897582269308653568

perfect example of revisionist history! I never knew the military had a political left/right label? All I see in that link is war pigs.

Yes, war pigs.  The pigs that defeated Nazism and barbarism.  The pigs that gave their lives to do that.

You're a putz.

voice of the damned

As for WWWTT's Maoist identificiation, I couldn't hlep but think of this from 1980...

http://tinyurl.com/ycm2cksf

Argued that Maoists(on behalf of the international proletariat of course) needed to follow Deng Xiaoping's lead and ally with Ronald Reagan to defeat the Soviets.

Of course, the "left" arguments for allying with Trump are usually PRO-Russian, or just outright nihilist, ie. now that we've got a REAL effed-up fascist in there, the Empire will be crumbling down any day now.  

 

 

 

josh

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

voice of the damned wrote:

Smithee:

Is it utterly impossible for you to lay off the anti-gay slurs?

 

That's funny VOAD. You certainly didn't come to my defense when this troublemaker started the shit show.

I was (as I always am) honest when I said if he kept on poking,prodding,provoking and trolling me,I'd lose my marbles. Which unfortunately I did. BVut where were you when he kept it up even after I (a) tried to ignore him (b) explicitly ask him to leave me alone and (c) when I tried to block him.

*crickets*

I'd come to your defense and I'd come to the defense of anyone else here. Instead,as per usual, I'm the one in the wrong.

As for gay slurs,if you read exactly what I said, I said he sucks big floppy donkey dicks. That's not an anti-gay slur last I checked.

But I've had it. The trolls and provacoteurs always get a free pass here. And this motherfucker is a text book troll,text book provacoteur and just a general flaming ASSHOLE. Has nobody noticed? I'll say it again.. I';m an ANTI-FASCIST,this prick is a nazi sympathizer and once again,I'm the villain.

If it makes you happy,I'll delete that post.

But I've asked this pissant THREE FUCKING TIMES to leave me the fuck alone. He's got a thick head and he's the one breaking babble policy with his nazi sympathies. NOT ME.

I don't know what I've done here to be the target of everyone's disdain. Is it because I'm honest? Is it because I use naughty language?

You read back his posts directed at me and tell me why or how I wouldn't fuckin' blow up. Before you rake me over the coals,understand what's happening and what's causing the reaction.

WWWTT

voice of the damned wrote:

Smithee:

Is it utterly impossible for you to lay off the anti-gay slurs?

 

And making threats of violence is perfectly OK? Or where you still getting around to that part?

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

WWWTT wrote:

[

LOL..Moaist...label yourself what you like. The reality is you're a cocksucker who blows donkeys in Tijuana for 5 pesos.

Threatening me with violence now hey? Making sexual references and implying that my sexual orientation is something to be ashamed of hey? Wow you're a real sad sad sad poster here on this site. I honestly feel real sorry for you brother! You really should just apologize. And try to make amends. I never imagined someone filled with so much hatred towards another poster would be here on rabble? Ya that's real funny that you called me a Trump supporter. Well either way I'm not backing down from a bully like you and if you think bullying another poster is going to get you anything? Let's just put it this way, sometimes we learn things the easy way, sometimes we learn things the hard way![/quote]

Please die a slow and painful death.

WWWTT

josh wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

josh wrote:

Shocking image of altleft attacking altright

https://mobile.twitter.com/Scott_Gilmore/status/897582269308653568

perfect example of revisionist history! I never knew the military had a political left/right label? All I see in that link is war pigs.

Yes, war pigs.  The pigs that defeated Nazism and barbarism.  The pigs that gave their lives to do that.

You're a putz.

No actually your a revisionalist! You're trying to rewrite history to fit your agenda! Your using one group that uses hatred to prop another group that did the exact same thing! You're taking an event and pulling it out of history to create an illusion to support a certain group! Perfect example of revisionist history.

Oh and by the way, the Japanese killed 20 million Chinese!!!! But I guess the "left" in the west can't somehow find anything in that tragedy to use hey? But when white jews die, it's game on! Maybe Chinese people just aren't white enough for white people to feel sorry for hey?

Oh and by the way, where was the left when this happened?

http://www.walkingbutterfly.com/2010/12/22/when-you-kill-ten-million-afr...

WWWTT

alan smithee wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

[

LOL..Moaist...label yourself what you like. The reality is you're a cocksucker who blows donkeys in Tijuana for 5 pesos.

Threatening me with violence now hey? Making sexual references and implying that my sexual orientation is something to be ashamed of hey? Wow you're a real sad sad sad poster here on this site. I honestly feel real sorry for you brother! You really should just apologize. And try to make amends. I never imagined someone filled with so much hatred towards another poster would be here on rabble? Ya that's real funny that you called me a Trump supporter. Well either way I'm not backing down from a bully like you and if you think bullying another poster is going to get you anything? Let's just put it this way, sometimes we learn things the easy way, sometimes we learn things the hard way!

Please die a slow and painful death.

[/quote]

Ya you're a real sad poster! Keep digging that hole you feel so comfortable living in. Like I said before, your comments are a reflection of who you are. Why would you wish someone pain and suffering? It's incredible that you claim to not be a racist when you write the exact same things a racist would want to happen to another person they did no like.  Still not too late for you to apologize and change your ways!

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

[

 

 

[/quote]

Apologize to you? You must have eaten a lot of paint chips as a kid. No apology. You should apologize to me and apologize to everyone here for being such an asshole.

Now for the FOURTH TIME. I'm ignoring you. I have nothing to say to you. I have no desire in engaging in a conversation with you. Please..LEAVE ME ALONE.

If you don't,it will just prove to others here that you are a troll and that you are purposely provoking me.

So as I said a couple days ago. Happy trails. Auf weider sehen,

WWWTT

@ josh

Oh ya just to continue, where was the invading left forces rushing the beaches of central Africa when king leopold was butchering MILLIONS of Africans? Where was the left when Vietnam was occupied by France? Where was the left invading forces when Netherlands occupied Indonesia? Oh ya the left was helping save the Netherlands, France and Belgium!!!!!!

When Hitler invaded those western racist imperial countries, it gave the poor people of Vietnam, Indonesia and many others around the opportunity in fighting oppression from the western imperial forces and triggered the independence of those nations!

But I guess Vietnam isn't white enough? I guess Indonessians aren't worthy of any sympathy hey?

When did India become an independant country from Britain again? Pakistan? etc etc?

I guess those troops on the beaches of Normandy where fighting for freedom according to you. White freedom! Who cares about India? Pakistan? Who was there speeking up for those people in the 1930's 1940's? The left? LOL!

Revisionalist history my friend!

WWWTT

alan smithee wrote:

[

 

 

Apologize to you? You must have eaten a lot of paint chips as a kid. No apology. You should apologize to me and apologize to everyone here for being such an asshole.

Now for the FOURTH TIME. I'm ignoring you. I have nothing to say to you. I have no desire in engaging in a conversation with you. Please..LEAVE ME ALONE.

If you don't,it will just prove to others here that you are a troll and that you are purposely provoking me.

So as I said a couple days ago. Happy trails. Auf weider sehen,

[/quote]

LOL! Is ignoring me like quiting smoking? You can do it but just not right now? Still waiting for that apology. But I'll give it some time.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Will Trump be impeached before the end of the year or will Republicans let him ride at the peril of being swept in 2018? The man took off his mask to the world that he is a Nazi sympathizer. Will Americans let that slide? And if impeachment happens,will it take the mask off the nation that it's a hotbed of far right hatred? Anyone willing to bet?

JKR

WWWTT wrote:

Rev Pesky wrote:

From WWWTT:

You find trying to find an end to violence to be funny? Ok so you don't think there's no room for negotiation dialogue or anything as such? The people who identify as white supremacist are not to be negotiated with. Haven't heard any suggestion yet about how to soften their perspective to be more inclusive.

​​As someone intelligently pointed out above, the neo-Nazi's and white supremacists have the right to vote. They are already included. They have the option of trying harder at the next election to put their agenda across.

ok so you don't feel that maybe white supremacists may be suffering from the same lack of inequality as other minority's? The same lack of access to education health care social services, you don't feel these issues can harbour violence and hatred? You're not interested in finding common ground. But you're a strong supporter of the American democracy and that someone's vote will solve everything likity split! Ok got you. Thanks. 

In the U.S. white-supremacists oppose socialism and social programs in general. They oppose increasing social programs like public health care, welfare, and public education because they feel social programs are set up to benefit  groups like African Americans, Latinos, and Hispanics. This is why white-supremacists support Republicans who want to destroy social programs and cut taxes.

Moreover, the basic truth is is that "race" is a social construct supported by white-supremacists in order to maintain the unfair socio-economic status  of whites. White-supremacist support the false idea that separate races exist because they want to maintain their unfair socio-economic advantage over others. In America racism has been the greatest factor in limiting the growth of socialism and social programs that would bring about greater social and economic equality. If white-supremacists favoured increasing social programs they would include these demands in their protests. But we all see what their ugly protests are about. These ugly protests now include the grotesque racist President Trump.

Divorcing social inequality from racial inequality makes no sense. It is done by National Socialists who support the most basic social and economic inequality.

JKR

WWWTT wrote:

@ josh

Oh ya just to continue, where was the invading left forces rushing the beaches of central Africa when king leopold was butchering MILLIONS of Africans? Where was the left when Vietnam was occupied by France? Where was the left invading forces when Netherlands occupied Indonesia? Oh ya the left was helping save the Netherlands, France and Belgium!!!!!!

When Hitler invaded those western racist imperial countries, it gave the poor people of Vietnam, Indonesia and many others around the opportunity in fighting oppression from the western imperial forces and triggered the independence of those nations!

But I guess Vietnam isn't white enough? I guess Indonessians aren't worthy of any sympathy hey?

When did India become an independant country from Britain again? Pakistan? etc etc?

I guess those troops on the beaches of Normandy where fighting for freedom according to you. White freedom! Who cares about India? Pakistan? Who was there speeking up for those people in the 1930's 1940's? The left? LOL!

Revisionalist history my friend!

Hitler fought for countries like Indonesia and Vietnam? Talk about revisionist history!! That takes the cake! Did Hitler fight for the Soviet Union so the Soviets could be able to set up the Warsaw Pact?!

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I always found it like a running joke that these far right groups that identify themselves as National Socialists actually despise socialism. It shows you their cluelessness. Nationalists they call themselves when they espouse ancient Germqan language and racism. The biggest joke is that the Americans now have a President who is openly unAmerican and he has the support of 79% of Reublican ' patriots'  The whole country needs a massive dose of thorazine.

But it's a cancer. And like any cancer,it's spreading,unfortunately over the border into our towns. Quebec City is said to be having a fascist rally this weekend. Not a big surprise considering that Quebec City is a far right town. It will be interesting to see who rises up to become Quebec's Donald Trump. I'm putting my money on Frank Legault whose thirst for power knows no low.Out West,I'm not sure whose going to fill that void.Jason Kenney?

 

lagatta4

Actually, many on the left are well aware of the extremely high death toll of colonial massacres, and of the Asian victims (not only Chinese) of Japanese imperialism. Don't assume that we are ignorant or racist.

Rev Pesky

From WWWTT:

ok so you don't feel that maybe white supremacists may be suffering from the same lack of inequality as other minority's? The same lack of access to education health care social services, you don't feel these issues can harbour violence and hatred? You're not interested in finding common ground. But you're a strong supporter of the American democracy and that someone's vote will solve everything likity split! Ok got you. Thanks. 

Well, it's nice to know the white supremacists are a minority. That, at least, is good news. Now, white supremacists may be a minority, but there is a difference between them as a minority, and other minorities. That is, they are a self-chosen minority. This may not have occurred to you, but the colour of one's skin is not a choice. A white supremacist can decide to no longer be a white supremacist, a black can't decide not to be seen as black.

Whether I am a strong supporter of American democracy is hardly the point. I am a strong supporter of democracy, and I believe that democracy should be extended. In other words, more democracy, not less. I hardly need point out to you that white supremacists, neo-Nazis, Nazis, and other far-right groups do not believe in democracy. They want to see democracy greatly restricted, if not ended altogether.

I'm not sure what 'common ground' you're referring to when you say I'm not interested in finding common ground. I have some core beliefs, and they are absolutely non-negotiable. One of my core beliefs is that every human has an equal right to be on this planet, an equal right to the resources of this planet, and has the right to be treated equally by the other humans on this planet. 

White supremacists, Nazis and neo-Nazis don't believe any of those things, and I can't see where there is any common ground on which to meet. When someone starts off with the position that some people are inherently superior, or inferior, to others, based on how they look, sorry, but there's no negotiating that. 

MegB

WWWTT wrote:

Rev Pesky wrote:

From WWWTT:

You find trying to find an end to violence to be funny? Ok so you don't think there's no room for negotiation dialogue or anything as such? The people who identify as white supremacist are not to be negotiated with. Haven't heard any suggestion yet about how to soften their perspective to be more inclusive.

​​As someone intelligently pointed out above, the neo-Nazi's and white supremacists have the right to vote. They are already included. They have the option of trying harder at the next election to put their agenda across.

ok so you don't feel that maybe white supremacists may be suffering from the same lack of inequality as other minority's? The same lack of access to education health care social services, you don't feel these issues can harbour violence and hatred? You're not interested in finding common ground. But you're a strong supporter of the American democracy and that someone's vote will solve everything likity split! Ok got you. Thanks. 

Okay WWWTT, your trolling days are over. And don't bother getting all 'what did I do'. You know what you're doing. Come back into this thread again and you'll be banned.

WWWTT

JKR wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

@ josh

Oh ya just to continue, where was the invading left forces rushing the beaches of central Africa when king leopold was butchering MILLIONS of Africans? Where was the left when Vietnam was occupied by France? Where was the left invading forces when Netherlands occupied Indonesia? Oh ya the left was helping save the Netherlands, France and Belgium!!!!!!

When Hitler invaded those western racist imperial countries, it gave the poor people of Vietnam, Indonesia and many others around the opportunity in fighting oppression from the western imperial forces and triggered the independence of those nations!

But I guess Vietnam isn't white enough? I guess Indonessians aren't worthy of any sympathy hey?

When did India become an independant country from Britain again? Pakistan? etc etc?

I guess those troops on the beaches of Normandy where fighting for freedom according to you. White freedom! Who cares about India? Pakistan? Who was there speeking up for those people in the 1930's 1940's? The left? LOL!

Revisionalist history my friend!

Hitler fought for countries like Indonesia and Vietnam? Talk about revisionist history!! That takes the cake! Did Hitler fight for the Soviet Union so the Soviets could be able to set up the Warsaw Pact?!

Ya you see, this is the problem when white people think they know what's best for non white people. Even worst, this is what happens when white people think they know how non white people around the world should feel.

Here open this link and read! Have an open mind! Forget what the media has been telling you all these years!

http://www.susmitkumar.net/index.php/hitler-not-gandhi-was-the-reason-fo...

JKR

WWWTT wrote:

JKR wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

@ josh

Oh ya just to continue, where was the invading left forces rushing the beaches of central Africa when king leopold was butchering MILLIONS of Africans? Where was the left when Vietnam was occupied by France? Where was the left invading forces when Netherlands occupied Indonesia? Oh ya the left was helping save the Netherlands, France and Belgium!!!!!!

When Hitler invaded those western racist imperial countries, it gave the poor people of Vietnam, Indonesia and many others around the opportunity in fighting oppression from the western imperial forces and triggered the independence of those nations!

But I guess Vietnam isn't white enough? I guess Indonessians aren't worthy of any sympathy hey?

When did India become an independant country from Britain again? Pakistan? etc etc?

I guess those troops on the beaches of Normandy where fighting for freedom according to you. White freedom! Who cares about India? Pakistan? Who was there speeking up for those people in the 1930's 1940's? The left? LOL!

Revisionalist history my friend!

Hitler fought for countries like Indonesia and Vietnam? Talk about revisionist history!! That takes the cake! Did Hitler fight for the Soviet Union so the Soviets could be able to set up the Warsaw Pact?!

Ya you see, this is the problem when white people think they know what's best for non white people. Even worst, this is what happens when white people think they know how non white people around the world should feel.

Here open this link and read! Have an open mind! Forget what the media has been telling you all these years!

http://www.susmitkumar.net/index.php/hitler-not-gandhi-was-the-reason-fo...

India just celebrated their Independence Day yesterday. I guess they should change the name of the day and call it accurately "Thank You Great Aryan Adolph Hitler Day!"

voice of the damned

Interesing parallel event in Montreal. A plaque commemorating the sojourn of Jefferson Davis, the one and only president of the CSA, has been removed from a Hudson's Bay Store. 

http://tinyurl.com/ya6jbgvz

I guess you could argue that the plaque, with its neutral tone, wasn't as offensive as a statue honouring Johnny Reb, though as Cosh points out, it was donated by the Daughters Of The Confderacy, who were not likely doing it just for historical interest.  

josh

voice of the damned wrote:

Interesing parallel event in Montreal. A plaque commemorating the sojourn of Jefferson Davis, the one and only president of the CSA, has been removed from a Hudson's Bay Store. 

http://tinyurl.com/ya6jbgvz

I guess you could argue that the plaque, with its neutral tone, wasn't as offensive as a statue honouring Johnny Reb, though as Cosh points out, it was donated by the Daughters Of The Confderacy, who were not likely doing it just for historical interest.  

Why would they put it up in the first place is what I'd like to know.

voice of the damned

josh wrote:

voice of the damned wrote:

Interesing parallel event in Montreal. A plaque commemorating the sojourn of Jefferson Davis, the one and only president of the CSA, has been removed from a Hudson's Bay Store. 

http://tinyurl.com/ya6jbgvz

I guess you could argue that the plaque, with its neutral tone, wasn't as offensive as a statue honouring Johnny Reb, though as Cosh points out, it was donated by the Daughters Of The Confderacy, who were not likely doing it just for historical interest.  

Why would they put it up in the first place is what I'd like to know.

You mean why would the people in Montreal put it up? Probably just historical interest, combined maybe with a bit of Gone With The Wind-influenced good vibes about the Lost Cause. It's only recently, even in Canada, that romanticizing the Confederacy has been widely viewed as disreputable. 

Personally, I wouldn't have taken the plaque down, as 1957 is old enough in my books to qualify as "protected by antiquity", and it is a matter of historical record that Davis sought refuge in the city(among numerous other examples of murky Canadian connections with the CSA). But if some culture jammers wanted to launch an ongoing campaign of reversible defacement of the thing(eg. washable graffiiti etc), that would be cool with me. 

Rev Pesky

​From voice of the damned:

Personally, I wouldn't have taken the plaque down, as 1957 is old enough in my books to qualify as "protected by antiquity

I smiled when I saw this as it would put me in that 'protected' category. I may be a doddering old fool, but I'm 'protected by antiquity'. Thank you, VOTD.

Mr. Magoo

Surely a Solomonesque compromise would be to replace the original (shall we say) celebratory plaque with a simpler, fact-based plaque?  "Jefferson Davis, the President of the Confederate States of America, lived on this site between [whenever] and [whenever+2 years], and then he left.  The End."

NorthReport

Obama’s Post-Charlottesville Message Most-Liked Tweet Ever

 

View image on Twitter

Barack Obama ✔@BarackObama

"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..."

5:06 PM - Aug 12, 2017

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/obama-post-charlottesville-message

NorthReport

Probably both unfortunately!

Is Trump a White Nationalist or Is He Experiencing a Second Childhood?

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/--100961

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..."

When Obama steps up to say what the President should have said, is he in violation of the Constitutional two-term limit??

It's nice to see a leader and not a follower.

NorthReport

ACLU takes heat for its free-speech defense of white supremacist group

 

Last weekend's deadly violence in Charlottesville, Virginia, has put the American Civil Liberties Union on the defensive for representing the white supremacists and generated furious debate over First Amendment speech rights.

The ACLU has been here before.

In a statement posted Tuesday night, ACLU executive director Anthony Romero insisted hateful, bigoted speech must be aired.

"Racism and bigotry will not be eradicated if we merely force them underground," Romero wrote. "Equality and justice will only be achieved if society looks such bigotry squarely in the eyes and renounces it."

Saturday's carnage, and President Donald Trump's conflicted responses, have further inflamed America's racial tensions and show no sign of receding from public debate. The ACLU is under scrutiny now too -- as it has been many times before when interests of free speech, safety and societal norms collide.

RELATED: Here are the Republicans denouncing Trump by name

Stacy Sullivan, ACLU associate director of strategic communications, said Wednesday that Romero was trying to answer outside critics as well as ACLU board members, donors and staff working for racial justice and concerned about the representation of white supremacists.

In his statement, Romero referred to the ACLU's history of representing Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan and other detestable groups through the years and tacitly acknowledged the current dissent within ACLU ranks over its litigation ensuring that demonstrators could gather last Saturday in a downtown Charlottesville park.

Counter-protesters were at the scene, and as the two sides clashed, James Alex Fields Jr. allegedly rammed his car into the crowd of counter-protesters, killing Heather Heyer. Fields, of Ohio, has been charged with second-degree murder.

"The violence of this weekend was not caused by our defense of the First Amendment," Romero wrote, countering critics who have argued that the ACLU's effort to prevent Charlottesville officials from moving the protest out of downtown contributed to the violent confrontations.

Romero's piece was posted Tuesday, soon after Trump had prompted public outrage with his remarks at Trump Tower in New York City about "blame on both sides." Trump's response to the rally of white supremacists and neo-Nazis has become arguably the most contentious of his turbulent seven-month presidency. He has been reluctant to denounce the white supremacists that started it all, instead saying there was blame all around.

The ACLU represented Jason Kessler, organizer of Unite the Right, as the group fought the city's attempt last week to revoke its permit to gather in a downtown Charlottesville park to protest removal of a statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee. The city had raised safety concerns about the number of demonstrators expected to attend.

US District Court Judge Glen Conrad, who rejected the revocation, noted that the city had left in place permits for counter-protesters near the downtown park and appeared to be targeting white nationalist Kessler for his views.

Some people, including Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe, leveled blame at the ACLU for the resulting violence.

"The city of Charlottesville asked for that to be moved out of downtown Charlottesville to a park about a mile and a half away -- a lot of open fields," McAuliffe said on NPR Monday. "That was the place that it should've been. We were, unfortunately, sued by the ACLU. And the judge ruled against us."

McAuliffe contended the result in the middle of downtown was "a powder keg."

Virginia ACLU executive director Claire Gastanaga countered in a statement after McAuliffe's interview, "Our lawsuit challenging the city to act constitutionally did not cause violence nor did it in any way address the question whether demonstrators could carry sticks or other weapons at the events."

She said Charlottesville officials had failed to make the case ahead of time that danger at the downtown park was imminent.

Romero said he thought the Virginia chapter "made the right call here."

"Some have argued that we should not be putting resources toward anything that could benefit the voices of white supremacy," he said. "But we cannot stand by silently as the government repudiates the principles we have fought for -- and won -- in the courts when it violates clearly established First Amendment rights."

Romero referred to the ACLU's nearly century-long history of defending unpopular causes. One of the most prominent instances came in 1978 when the organization represented a neo-Nazi group that wanted to march in the Chicago suburb of Skokie, home to many Holocaust survivors.

As is happening today, some ACLU members said they would resign or stop donating. The ACLU's Sullivan acknowledged that some staffers were upset with the Virginia ACLU's legal work and that the organization was concerned about donors turning away but described the current criticism as "muted" compared to the ACLU's "Skokie moment."

By 6 p.m. Wednesday, 24 hours after Romero's post had gone up, it had generated 75 responses. Most were anonymous and no unanimity emerged among the views. Some commended the ACLU's unequivocal support for free speech. Some said the organization had wrongly ignored crucial safety concerns. Some were torn.

Some referenced the deaths of Heyer and two state troopers killed in a helicopter crash as they helped monitor the Charlottesville scene.

Said one anonymous ACLU member, "I fully support the ACLU's defense of free speech rights, including groups such as the KKK, neo Nazis and other hate groups. However, I am deeply disturbed by the ACLU's decision to oppose local officials in Virginia who sought not to prevent the recent Charlottesville rally but to locate it in a place that would make it easier to keep all in attendance safe. ... (T)hree people are now dead and I cannot escape the thought that my donations may have contributed indirectly to their deaths."

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/16/politics/aclu-free-speech-white-supremacy/...

Rev Pesky

Free speech doesn't necessarily mean whereever and whenever you want. If somebody comes up to me in a public place and starts blaring in my ear with a megaphone, I think I have the right to stop that speech.

Meanwhile, Steve Bannon appears to be testing the limits. He phoned up a left-wing publication and gave an interview without (apparently) realizing he was doing it.

Steve Bannon thought he wasn't giving an interview

Steve Bannon's White House colleagues can't believe what they're reading tonight — and here's the twist: neither can Bannon.

The White House chief strategist has told associates he never intended to do an "interview" with an editor at the American Prospect, a left-wing publication.

...The result is not good for Bannon, who is already under pressure, with colleagues lined up against him and a president who agrees with him ideologically but tells associates he thinks Bannon is a leaker.

Here's what one of Bannon's colleagues — somebody who's not an enemy of his — told me after reading the piece: "Since Steve apparently enjoys casually undermining U.S. national security, I'll put this in terms he'll understand: This is DEFCON 1-level bad."

...Bannon undercut the president's stance on North Korea: "Contrary to Trump's threat of fire and fury, Bannon said: 'There's no military solution [to North Korea's nuclear threats], forget it. Until somebody solves the part of the equation that shows me that ten million people in Seoul don't die in the first 30 minutes from conventional weapons, I don't know what you're talking about, there's no military solution here, they got us."

He openly talked about his internal fights with colleagues: "That's a fight I fight every day here," he said. "We're still fighting. There's Treasury and [National Economic Council chair] Gary Cohn and Goldman Sachs lobbying."

He talked about changing personnel in a way that made him sound like the president: "I'm changing out people at East Asian Defense; I'm getting hawks in. I'm getting Susan Thornton [acting head of East Asian and Pacific Affairs] out at State."

On big question: As one of Bannon's colleagues — again, somebody who is generally sympathetic to him — asked me after reading the piece: "What will Kelly do when he sees this?"

I would say the either Bannon or Kelly have to go. After all the chatter about leakers, and how severely they'll be punished, I can't imagine how the White House can just ignore this. Bannon's statement that he 'didn't think he was giving an interview' is ridiculous on the face of it...A person deeply involved in the media industry not realizing he had to have agreement that his comments were 'off the record. Nope.

My bet...I think Kelly will resign. On the other hand, who knows? Strange things have happened, and probably will continue to happen.

By the way, on behalf of the citrus fruit industry of Florida, I wonder if people could stop referring to Trump as 'orange'. It's giving the fruit a bad name.

 

 

progressive17 progressive17's picture

From a Canadian perspective, we already know that nothing good can come from "Unite the Right"...

NDPP

BAR: The Story of Charlottesville Was Written in Blood in Ukraine  -  by Ajamu Baraka

https://www.newcoldwar.org/story-charlottesville-written-blood-ukraine/

"Trump and the alt-right have become useful diversions for white supremacist liberals and leftists who would rather fight against those superficial caricatures of racism than engage in more difficult ideological work involving real sacrifice..."

voice of the damned

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Surely a Solomonesque compromise would be to replace the original (shall we say) celebratory plaque with a simpler, fact-based plaque?  "Jefferson Davis, the President of the Confederate States of America, lived on this site between [whenever] and [whenever+2 years], and then he left.  The End."

Well, like I say, I pesonally think the antiquity of the original plaque is part of its appeal. Granted, one doubts that it would qualify for any sort of official hertiage designation.

josh

The ACLU was correct.  The problem is that they city does not have a law forbidding open carry of firearms.

voice of the damned

NDPP wrote:

BAR: The Story of Charlottesville Was Written in Blood in Ukraine  -  by Ajamu Baraka

https://www.newcoldwar.org/story-charlottesville-written-blood-ukraine/

"Trump and the alt-right have become useful diversions for white supremacist liberals and leftists who would rather fight against those superficial caricatures of racism than engage in more difficult ideological work involving real sacrifice..."

Yeah, I get what Baraka is saying, and partly see his point(assuming I understand what's going on in Ukraine, and no, that's not an invitiation to revive the debate on this thread).

But let's be honest here...

Let's say Ezra Levant had become the Prime Minister of Canada on an openly "pro-white" platform, and the early period of his tenure happened to co-incide with mobs consisting of hundreds of Proud Boys storming into First Nations protests against colonial monuments, and one of the Proud Boys had driven a car into a demo and killed a First Nations activist, and Prime Minister Levant tweeted "I condemn the hotheads on both sides of this confict".

How many progressives would find it helpful to be told "Oh, don't get too worked up about Levant and the Proud Boy thugs, look at all the overseas imperialism the Liberals got us into!"

NorthReport

Montreal has a long historical link to America's confederate past

https://news.google.ca/news/amp?caurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmontrealgazette.com%2...

josh

Paladin1

josh wrote:

The ACLU was correct.  The problem is that they city does not have a law forbidding open carry of firearms.

 

I don't know why these people think open carrying firearms is a good idea at ptotests. Way too easy for it to be used against you in a riot situation (same goes with knives) and I can't imagine it makes law enforcements job easier. Might be a good start if Firearms and other weapons like bat's and clubs and pepper spray be banned from these protests and gatherings.  Pretty hard for Nazi idiots to scream about their second amendments considering Nazi Germany's views on gun control and the fact that the US fought the Nazis. 

Paladin1

Nmn

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Poll : 25% of Americans say they will support Trump no matter what

http://www.sfgate.com/elections/article/Poll-finds-a-quarter-of-American...

It's time to write off a segment of the population. They view Trump as their Dear Leader and like any cult will not defy their Grand Wizard.

They cannot be deterred and feel the need to have an authoritarian to lead them as the only means of protecting their 'freedom'

Fuck them. Forget about them and don't waste energy trying to get through to them.

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