KremlinGate

Why can't some people wait for the results of the investigations into "Russia-gate" before they come to the conclusion that their is no substance to "Russia-gate?" If there is no substance to Russi-gate there should be nothing to fear.

NorthReport]</p> <p>Sure sounds like we have our own echo of Fox News here</p> <p>[quote=NDPP wrote:

No doubt the first McCarthyite witch-hunt critics were given much the same outrageous rationalization...

[quote=NDPP]

Prefer CNN?

'The Russia-thing is just a big nothing burger'- Van Jones

Jimmy Dore: CNN Senior Producer Admits 'Russia Story Mostly Bullshit'

https://youtu.be/A0TFcJX4Mp0

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:

No doubt the first McCarthyite witch-hunt critics were given much the same outrageous rationalization...

McCarthy's antics are described as a "witch-hunt" precisely because there was nothing concrete or objective about them.   People weren't being investigated for plotting to overthrow the State, they were investigated for rumours of  purported sympathies with those who might theoretically want to overthrow the State.

McCarthyism was literally based on gossip and nosey neighbours.  There was no "evidence" to wait for.

But just like the Olympic cheating, this time there seems to be actual evidence.  Not gossip or innuendo.  Not "they joined the wrong club in college".  Not "their neighbours wonder why they're up at all hours of the night and keep to themselves".

Ironically the gossip and innuendo now seems to be coming from those screaming, "McCarthyism!" I think it is unwise to side with people who are afraid of simply going where the evidence leads.

NorthReport wrote:

Trump Putin call: CIA helped stop Russia terror attack

Quite possibly they did, and good for them(assuming the threat was legitimate and not some juiced-up thing). But I'm kind of wondering what the pro-Putin crowd thinks about their boy collaborating with the murderous imperialists over at the CIA.

JKR said:

""Ironically the gossip and innuendo now seems to be coming from those screaming, "McCarthyism!" I think it is unwise to side with people who are afraid of simply going where the evidence leads."

You are not going where the evidence leads because you have not seen any evidence.   It's all secret, except when it's deemed politically useful to leak it to a friendly reporter, or when pressured, update Congress.   You are following breadcrumbs dropped by bad actors who do not deserve your trust.

If you want to place your faith in CNN, the Washington Post and the New York Times, as informed by the CIA and FBI, be my guest, but do wake me up and let me know when the smoking gun arrives.

Mobo2000 wrote:

Who's the pro-Putin crowd?   If you think they are on babble just ask them.   Name some names.

Well, I'm not in the habit of calling out people I'm not otherwise engaged with at the particular moment, and in any case, the opinions in question aren't babble-specific. Let me depersonalize the point...

"It's kind of hard to reconcile the idea that Putin is some sort of principled opponent of US foreign-policy, with his evident willingness to collaborate with the CIA when it suits his interests."

Witch-hunt Update:  The Senate's Russia Investigation is  Now Looking into Jill Stein

https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/942893577042104323

"Led by Dianne Feinstein, Democrats are exploiting Russiagate to eliminate the political opposition to their left. The innuendo spread against Stein and the Green Party contains all the classic elements of McCarthyism."

Mobo2000 wrote:

JKR said:

""Ironically the gossip and innuendo now seems to be coming from those screaming, "McCarthyism!" I think it is unwise to side with people who are afraid of simply going where the evidence leads."

You are not going where the evidence leads because you have not seen any evidence.   It's all secret, except when it's deemed politically useful to leak it to a friendly reporter, or when pressured, update Congress.   You are following breadcrumbs dropped by bad actors who do not deserve your trust.

If you want to place your faith in CNN, the Washington Post and the New York Times, as informed by the CIA and FBI, be my guest, but do wake me up and let me know when the smoking gun arrives.

 

I agree there is no need to jump the gun before the legal investigations conclude. I'm withholding my judgement of innocence or guilt until the legal investigations conclude. I agree that it is possible that the judgement of the legal investigations may not go against against Trump. This is what I mean when I state that the evidence should be allowed to lead the way. I think the legal proceedings should be allowed to take their course and come to a judgement based on evidence without being discredited prematurely by innuendo for partisan political purposes.

NorthReport wrote:

https://twitter.com/20committee/status/942841940973948930

If Trump was preaching anti-NATO rhetoric as far back as the 80s, it would make sense(to say the least) that he got on the Russians' radar as someone to root for.

That said, I'm not convinced of the causistry that Schindler suggests, ie. Trump got turned by the Russians during his '87 visit, since it is at least the third explanation as to how he went over, the other two being that he is in hock to the Russian mob, and that he was being blackmailed over his hotel-room frolics. (I think there might be another one, but it's not coming to mind right now.) As I've said before, it's odd that we've got several different narrative strands that all end up in the same place.

But yes, if Trump held those particular opinions for that long, he's definitely the most anti-NATO person ever to run for the presidency on a major-party ticket, which is a pretty strong rebuttal to the claim that the Russians would never want someone like him in the White House.

NDPP wrote:

Witch-hunt Update:  The Senate's Russia Investigation is  Now Looking into Jill Stein

https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/942893577042104323

"Led by Dianne Feinstein, Democrats are exploiting Russiagate to eliminate the political opposition to their left. The innuendo spread against Stein and the Green Party contains all the classic elements of McCarthyism."

 

McCarthyism:

a vociferous campaign against alleged communists in the US government and other institutions carried out under Senator Joseph McCarthy in the period 1950–54. Many of the accused were blacklisted or lost their jobs, although most did not in fact belong to the Communist Party.

Note:  It's started several years before McCarthy latched on to it.  And last longer than 1954.

No, they weren't all in "positions of power."  Loyalty oaths were instituted in many school districts and in other "non-power" lines of work.  That has nothing to do with an investigation into whether a foreign power interfered in an election, and whether a campaign took part in that interference.

Josh:  screenerwriters, hollywood directors and actors, university professors are all in positions of power.   Not as powerful as senators of course, but they have considerable influence with the public, and could infect their minds with the pernicious communist ideology.  

Mobo wrote:

 It's clear Russia has been seeking cooperation with the US on many fronts for years.   Putin and Russia are not opponents of the US, they are targets.  

So why on Earth is Putin working with the people who are targeting him?

The Jimmy Dore Show:

CIA Spy Chief - 'Russiagate Has Failed!'

https://youtu.be/DbYNKvsIKDo

"...Let's talk about what I think are the possibilities going forward. So, I would not be surprised if Bob Mueller concludes that the Trump campaign did not violate the law with regard to its contacts with the Russians. And I think that, had there been something there, they would have found it already..."

Implying that someone likes to orally pleasure Vladimir Putin is homophobic, and should not be tolerated on any message board with claims to progressive values. But as a personal insult against the poster, it's pretty much in the same ballpark as saying "Does Justin Trudeau pay you to write this stuff, or do you just do it out of slavish devotion to the cause?"

The action implied by the phrase "brown-noser" is gender and orientation non-specific, and you can come up with a lot of creative ways to describe it in ever more graphic terms. I recommend that as a substitute for the phrase that rhymes with "Buck Locke".

[quote=NorthReport]

Trump Putin call: CIA helped stop Russia terror attack

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42386258

[quote=NDPP]

I think the CIA, which is the main enabler of these terrorist proxies, probably set them up to 'demonstrate' that it really is fighting terrorism, and has no ill will towards Russia at all. Or alternatively, scrubbed and disclosed it fearing the Russian reaction if the bloody plot succeeded and possible exposure of theUS hands behind it. In any case, many lives were probably saved. As well, despite the impression conveyed by the western propaganda so enjoyed by those here,  there is a whole range of contacts, cooperation and communications that routinely go on internationally between intelligence agencies and police. Interpol is one example but there are others. You people need to lay off the Louise Mensch, repeated viewings of Red Dawn or whatever you're smoking. Your gullibility is embarrassing, your malevolent Russophobia alarming.

VOTD:    Regarding Putin and cooperating with the US, I think this article by Matt Taibbi goes over some of the electoral issues facing Putin and views Russians have about the US.   It is a selling point for him in the upcoming election that he has a good dealings/rapport with Trump, and he emphasized it in his address last weekend.  

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/taibbi-what-does-russiaga...

 "As Goodman and others have pointed out, failing to predict the Soviet collapse was probably the biggest intelligence failure in our history. While Ronald Reagan and his cronies politicized intelligence and overhyped the Soviets as a mighty and monolithic force, the on-the-ground reality was that the Soviet Union was a crumbling third-world state besotted with crippling economic and infrastructural problems.

We missed countless opportunities for easier, safer and cheaper relations with the Russians by consistently mistaking their disintegrating Potemkin Empire for an ascendant threat.

It's not exactly the same story now, but it's close. Putin's Russia certainly has global ambitions, just as the Soviets did. But the game now is much more about connections and hot money than about geopolitics or territory. There's evidence that the Russians have tried to burrow their way into America's commercial and political establishment, but by most accounts the main route of entry has been financial.

If indeed Trump was a target of Russian efforts, we'll likely discover that this was not something that was exclusive to Trump but rather just one data point amid a broad, holistic strategy to curry favor and make connections across the American political class.

Still, these efforts are probably far more limited in scope than we've been led to imagine. DNC hack or no DNC hack, Russia is still a comparatively weak country with limited power to influence a nation like the U.S., especially since it's still dogged internally by those same massive economic and infrastructural problems it's always had. Putin's political grip on power at home is also far less sure than our pundits and politicians are letting on.

The generalized plan to create chaos in other industrialized states by seeding/spreading corruption and political confusion – which many in the intelligence community believe is an aim of Russian intelligence efforts – is revealing in itself. It's the strategy of a weak and unstable third-world state looking for a cheap way to stay in the game (and bolster its profile) versus more powerful industrial rivals. Hyping Russia as an all-powerful menace actually plays into this strategy."