I've been following along on Twitter. Jury selection was yesterday - all indigenous-looking jurors were challenged. Looks like Gerald Stanley has a jury of his peers, all right. Trial started this morning, starting with forensics and police witnesses.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/colten-boushie-gerald-stanley-tr...
This is going to be a hugely important case. White, rural Canada is on trial along with Stanley.
This doesn't change the fact that jury selection process is an outrage, but it shows that isn't the end of the story:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/boushie-jury-selection-opinion-b...
Also an important letter to read:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155533122490910&set=a.10151610...
Kind of sounds like Canada's George Zimmerman.
Very much like.
The twitter comments supporting protection of property with firearms were totally sickening this evening.
Just keep in mind we have a legal system, it is completely off base to refer to it as a justice system. Any justice that comes out of it is purely coincidental.
Important perspective:
I spoke briefly to his uncle Alvin Baptiste and he told me that the case has been very difficult for his sister Debbie Baptiste, who is also the mother of the deceased. “She has to leave when they show pictures or refer to him in the testimony,” he told me.
He also told me that his mother refuses to attend and hear her grandson’s name over and over again and to see pictures of his deceased body entered as evidence.
One of the witnesses, Eric Meechance, was asked to identify a rifle that was allegedly in their possession. He was shown a picture of the rifle beside the body of the deceased. He asked why they showed him that picture and he broke down. He had been shown a picture of his dead friend, and that was a cultural taboo.
http://thestarphoenix.com/opinion/columnists/cuthand-first-nations-tradi...
Doug Cuthand is an important voice. I'm glad he is still writing for the Star Phoenix. I wish he was still making films, too. Anyway, some much needed context.
Honest question. How is the Crown supposed to prosecute a murder trial, and defence to defend against it, consistent with cultural traditions? Does that apply only to certain cultures?
Obviously they cannot do that pookie. I think Cuthand's point is that we should appreciate how difficult this is for everyone involved. This is yet another aspect of their culture that not only is being violated by our ways, but another one which we are completely unaware of and have no appreciation for.
That's what I take from it, anyway.
(edit)
But by way of comparision I can think of trials where horrible evidence was shown only to the jury and those who had to see it. Maybe if our justice system had more sensitivity we would be aware of these violations.
Not guilty. Fuck.
#justiceforcolten rallies https://www.facebook.com/events/2034916356793596/
Also Montreal Tuesday https://www.facebook.com/events/147885662567077/
Unfortunately not much has changed:
They really should start spelling that province's name with 3 ks, not one.
There's a long history of the KKK in Saskatchewan. It also played a role in the killing of Leo Lachance 25 years ago (the judge in the Stanley trial was an RCMP lawyer in that case).
http://mindytran.com/leolachance.htm
Thing is, racism is everywhere in this country. You only have to look at the coverage of the Raymond Cormier trial in Winnipeg to see that. We don't do anything to challenge it by pointing out how much worse it is elsewhere.
One of the things called for at the rally in Regina was to document examples of online racism in the wake of this trial and forward it to the Saskatchewan Coalition Against Racism.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1616155098463060&set=a.154451427...
What are you talking about? Stanley is the kind of person people see as a salt-of-the-earth-regular-hard-working-farmer kind of guy and I think that's what played a role in his acquital. The picture of Cormier that the press has used in the Tina Fontaine case is not particularly flattering, he seems to come across as a "loser," and for that reason I expect he will be convicted of at least something.
And yes, I agree that racism is a problem in Winnipeg as well. It's one of the reasons that Kevin Chief lost the federal by-election to replace Judy Wasylicia-Leis.
I was actually talking about the racist news coverage that smeared the victim, same as the coverage here. But my point is that yes it is terrible in Saskatchewan. It is one of the worst places in this country when it comes to racism. But this case - in particular the racist jury selection process - is an indictment of all of us.
I don't mean to be testy, but I have seen a couple of people elsewhere talk about this as if it is Saskatchewan's problem, even though they live in the city that is ground zero for murdered and missing Indigenous women. It is not helpful rhetoric, and it does nothing to come to terms with the responsibility we all bear to help change things.
Posted yesterday by Senator Murray Sinclair on his Facebook page:
Fair enough. It was more a reference to the fact that Stanley was acquited, while the verdict on the Tina Fontaine case has not yet come in. I haven't followed the news coverage of either that closely so I could have missed something. I have read that the RCMP didn't properly secure evidence in the Boushie case, and that Winnipeg police did see Fontaine around the time she was reported missing and they did not act then.
As for Cormier, I absolutely agree that it would be a different conversation if he was a more "respectable" member of the community.
This very well written summary came across my Facebook feed. I think it is clear that the jury did not understand what the term reasonable means in the term, beyond a reasonable doubt. This is merely the same settler justice that has prevailed since the days of Almighty Voice.
Yup. Really it was about giving the jury an excuse to do what they did. In fact, this commentator in the Globe makes the point that in pointing out the flaws in Stanley's story the prosecution might have gone too far in boxing them into a corner with the truth. Hard to say.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/the-stanley-verdict-manslaughter...
Another important perspective on all of this:
http://www.canadalandshow.com/gerald-stanley-colten-boushie-and-fear-of-...
Lawyers warn of political commentary on verdicts after Stanley acquittal
Sorry if it's "too soon" or whatever, but they're kind of right. When politicians act as though the jury got it wrong and should have thought otherwise, it both puts the judicial branch on the spot for "having failed", and ironically exonerates the Crown for having failed.
This is not to say that 99.99% of the population cannot or should not believe that Stanley is guilty. Just that there's a problem when high-ranking politicians (basically the right and left bower, to borrow euchre terms) make it clear that the jury did not come to the conclusion that they were supposed to and Canada is officially disappointed in them.
Stanley got away with murder. I'm not up to speed with Canadian trespassing laws but I don't think there's anything in the Charter that gives any individual the right to shoot down someone for trespassing. AFAIK Canada does not have 'stand your own ground laws' and even in the case of someone breaking into your home,shooting them or beating them with a baseball bat will land YOU in a world of trouble.
But hey...Rural Canada,Native American,murder disguised as property protection,predictably the Tories are politically posteuring by attacking Trudeau who has said rightly that this was a case of the judiciary getting it wrong. And I'd agree. An all White jury. Half that jury should have been Native.
I truly hope that this case is going to be appealed and a new trial will follow without an obviously biased,all white jury. Sorry,but I think it's clear that prejudice played a roll in Stanley's acquittal.
And I think it is imperative that the federal government step in and put an end to biased juries in cases that involve any minority,ESPECIALLY Natives.
So fuck off,Scheer.
Except they didn't say the jury got it wrong. They said nothing at all about the verdict.
Every recommendation I have heard has been about the government reconsidering preemptive challenges for juries because of the underrepresentation of Indigenous people. That is a fair concern that has nothing to do with the specifics of this trial.
As for Justin Trudeau expressing sympathy for the family, it is better than our premier warning people that they should watch their mouths and not do anything rash.
I’d like to see if Justin Trudeau and the rest of cabinet are actually going to do something beyond making tweets to score political points on other people’s suffering. After all, as far as I know, lots of the faults that led to this injustice falls squarely onto federal jurisdiction. All the the RCMP fuck ups aswell can be addressed. This wasn’t the first time a European descent got away. And something tells me it won’t be the last. If more people actually held politicians to a higher standard, this probably wouldn’t have happened in the first place and everyone would probably still be alive and have respect for each other.
Well as it says in that FB link up at #14, this might be a good time to write letters to the Justice Department, and your MPs.
You have a right to basic self-defense within reason. If you're acting in reasonable fear for your own life or someone else's you can claim self defense. If you catch someone breaking into your garage and manage to subdue the person but the person gets a couple of bruises on the way down, you should be fine. If this person runs from your property and you run after and catch this person and then beat this person to a bloody pulp, that is assault.
None of that applies in this case.
I don't know if this has already been addressed here but it was mentioned on Cross Canada CheckUp today that several Indigenous People were called for jury duty but none actually ended up on the jury. Is that correct?
Four of them were called up, and every one was challenged. That is what the Boushie family's lawyer said at the rally yesterday.
You highlighted what I have said. Self-defense within reason. This was within reason?
What the hell was his defense? What else could it have been (besides blatant racism) And racism is the reason Stanley walked away from this.
Maybe Stanley is a 'White nationalist' maybe not but he sure is racist
And I think that applies to the jury. That's the gist of what happened from what I read. You want to explain Stanley's defense in court?
Apparently I'm wrong. But I can't think of another defense one would choose when gunning down someone besides self defense. That gun didn't accidentally kill Boushie,there's just too much accuracy and precision.
Even if the defense was that it was áccidental',it was accidental because he was defending himself with a gun. Why would anyone run out with a gun when some people were on his land? The defense would have to be self defense or protecting his land which is a form of self defending. But what do I know?
Whatever.
I would suggest renaming the title of this thread for clarity and truth. This was not the Colten Bushie Trial. This was the Trial of Gerald Stanley in the killing of Colten Boushie.
Thanks Smith.
I know the lawyers were just doing their job to get their client off but something is dreadfully wrong with our legal system that allows all Indigenous people to be scratched from the jury like that.
And I guess what I want to say to Trudeau is to stop trying to make himself look good by nattering on about Duterte, and clean up the human rights atrocities in Canada's own back yard. And while we are on the topic of the Philippines why is Canada not bringing back Canada's garbage that has been sitting, waiting for years in Manila because the Filipinos don't want Canada's garbage? Who knew!
https://ipolitics.ca/2018/02/11/justifiable-cry-verdict-system-produced/
Smithee wrote:
truly hope that this case is going to be appealed
Doesn't the so-called Morgentaler Amendment(not sure of the actual name of the law) prevent a not-guitly verdict from being appealed?
I expected a manslaughter verdict. The executive and judicial branches require separation.
Did the Crown reject anyone? Angry white farmers, for example?
This has been a part of our system since forever. It's only a problem NOW?
And how should we fix it?
a) no more rejected jurors. The first 12 chosen by lottery are the jury, no exceptions.
b) only the defense can reject (up to a maximum).
c) only the Crown can reject (up to a maximum).
d) either side may reject, but they must submit an essay for each rejected juror, 4-6 pages double spaced, explaining why they were rejected. An independent panel of 12 randomly chosen Canadians will review each essay and provide a judgement within six months.
Here's something to consider: the right to be tried "by a jury of your peers" does not specifically mean you have a right to be tried by a jury of people who look like you, go to the same church as you, or believe as you do. But whatever else it does mean applies solely to the defendant and never the Crown.
I rather think his friends lying and changing testimony helped a lot to instill 'reasonable doubt' in the minds of the jury as well
If memory serves, as inherited from the British, the principle originally meant that the jury would be drawn from the same social class you (the accused) were: nobles got a jury of nobles, and peasants got a jury of peasants. It wasn't exactly an egalitarian principle then, however nice it sounds today. It was institutionalized surrender to entrenched class distinctions. It never meant a jury of the victim's peers.
Funny thing that the redneck crowd overlooked is that Stanley also lied about the gun going off accidentally. Why the double standard? Why were lies told by Boushie's friends enough to discredit the Crown's case but the lie about the gun going off by accident not enough to discredit Stanley?
I believe the defense used in that case revolved around the belief that she was older than 14, which was the legal age of consent at the time.
I don't have time to look into it right now, but the Saskatchewan branch of the CCPA did publish a commentary about it at the time. It's worth looking into.
Because his story, true or not, basically hasn’t changed and the presence of a rifle led credence to his claim of fear. And before you jump on me for the weaknesses in his defence (which I agree with) all his lawyer needed to do was put some doubt in the juries mind and tadaa you have ‘reasonable doubt’
Not exactly. Evidently, a Court of Appeal can order a new trial, but may not reverse an acquittal otherwise. So the Crown can still appeal, sort of, but not in quite the same way that a Court of Appeal can directly overturn a conviction. And I assume that in the case of a conviction, the Crown can still appeal the sentence.
Just going by Google here, though. I didn't know about this until you brought it up.
Yes. If there was something done wrong (for example, the judge's instruction to the jury) that is grounds for an appeal. If that were not so there would probably be no appeals.
Unfortunately the crown and defense already agreed on some pretty bizarre things, like that it was okay for Stanley fire those first two shots, even though some witnesses said they heard them flying and ricocheting.
And "peers" just means people. News flash: Indigenous people are people, even if some don't think so. Last time I was called up one of the wealthiest business guys in the room, who tried to beg off because he was so important wound up on the jury trying someone who at the opposite end of the economic and cultural spectrum. He was still qualified to sit on that jury.
It seems to me that the jury thought that there was reasonable doubt whether a fatal gun shot was done on purpose. I think their verdict rested on evidence that a "hang fire" could have caused the murder, even if very unlikely. I don't think the jury heard expert evidence that clearly stated a hang fire could not have occurred beyond a reasonable doubt. It seems to me the prosecution should have found a very reputable expert witnesses that showed that a hang fire could not have happened beyond a reasonable doubt. I believe the forensic witness in the trial said that the fatal bullet had an unusual "bulge" that could not be explained. I have no knowledge of guns so I have no idea whether a hang fire could have occurred beyond a reasonable doubt but I think the prosecution failed to clearly show that a hang fire could not have occurred beyond a reasonable doubt. I think it's important to remember that the burden of proof falls on the prosecution.
I think the jury was waiting for any shred that would give them a way to let the white guy off, even a series of obvious lies like his wife being under a car, an extra bullet he didn't know about while he happened to be pointing the gun at the back of his head, and it magically going off even though the trigger requires a 13 pound pull.
The defense lawyer gave that to them, so of course they did it. No mystery there.
JKR, I don't think there was reasonable doubt around the hang fire. Unreasonable doubt, sure.
Hang fires are incredibly rare - an expert testified to that. He also testified that a long hangfire is .58 of a second - most, when they happen, are even shorter than that. A hangfire of many seconds, as would have had to have happened to Stanley, is unheard of. So expert testimony didn't support the claim. The wishful thinking of the jury did. It was an excuse to say there was doubt, where in reality - had they actually considered the expert testimony with the appropriate weight - there should have been none.
I just checked on YouTube for examples of hangfires. This guy almost shoots himself in the head. Luckily only his hat is injured:
https://youtu.be/Za2ezCNvBeU
It's not a handgun but it does take longer than 0.58 seconds. I guess it is more likely to happen with old ammunition.
Then there's his story about not knowing there was anything in the chamber at all, even though the mechanism was in a position that made that impossible. And he still pulled the trigger. Clearly they were throwing anything at the wall without any concern for whether it was contradictory, or made any sense.
And here's the paradox that underpins the recent interest in jury composition and peremptory challenges.
If we believe that any juror is equal to any other (and all I mean is that if we believe within reason that any juror, regardless of sex, age, ethnicity or class can follow instruction, act in good faith, and deliver a fair and just verdict based on evidence) then we could do as some U.S. states, and the UK have done and abolish peremptory challenges. But if we believe that, then we should also believe that peremptory challenges serve no purpose but also do no harm. A waste of time and resources at worst.
In other words, if we're ready to get rid of peremptory challenges because we believe that any juror is a fair juror and neither the Crown nor the defense should "hand pick" the jury then we should also have no problem with an all white jury, all female jury, all septuagenarian jury or whatever.
As soon as either side "rejects" someone potentially based on sex, age, ethnicity or class (or for that matter, life experience -- if you're defending an accused carjacker, you probably don't want 6 people on the jury who've been carjacked) we can only assume that it's because that person is perceived as potentially being biased -- for or against the defendant -- at which point excluding them from the jury pool seems much less unreasonable.
Would six Aboriginal jurors have had a better technical insight into "hang-firing"? Is that why the jury should have been one half Aboriginal? Or do we think those jurors' life experiences have given them special insight into what racist farmers are "really like" and would have no patience for the legal mumbo-jumbo?
To put the question even more simply, should the jury have been half Aboriginal on the belief that those jurors would be more likely to convict than the six non-Aboriginals they got instead? If so then that's still hand-picking a jury to produce a desired outcome, and if not that then what, specificially??
A hang fire, AFAIK, is a delay between trigger mechanism and firing pin, a mechanical rather than an ammunition issue. Also, even if it is an ammunition issue, there are some differences between shotgun shells and handgun bullets.
Anyway, if you look at the twitter feed on the handgun expert's testimony, they tested the ammunition and the gun itself and were unable to reproduce a hang fire. It's fucking bogus, and as Smith has noted, they were throwing whatever contradictory dust they could into the air to create doubt.
No. But Court of Appeal can apply what is called the "curative proviso" to leave the verdict intact despite legal errors. Or, order a new trial. The only difference between appealing not-guilty v guilty verdict is that higher court may no longer substitute a conviction in the former case.
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