How Will You Handle Doug Ford as Premier?

I''ll be very disapointed at not having to pay for all the election promises Wynne made. I'm going to scream at the sky and threaten to move to the USA.

I might also put in a PTSD claim for metal anguish.

Count your blessings. It will be impossible for Ford to do worse than Wynne as Premier. At the least Ford, whatever his failings, is not a cynical wastrel.

Ken Burch wrote:

The only reason you start these threads, MM, is that you think every NDP voter should feel obligated to voted Liberal to stop the guy.  If the Mainstream poll was accurate, mass NDP defections to the Liberals wouldn't stop him.

Your agenda has never changed, not once:  you think the NDP owes it to the country to go extinct until the Conservatives stop choosing far-right types as leader.  

You'd also say the NDP owes it to the country to go extinct if the Conservatives were ahead in the polls under NON far-right leaders.

It's all about badgering everybody to the left of Attila The Hun to vote Liberal, no matter what.

BTW, there was also a poll last week showing the PC's only seven points ahead, so actually there have been wild fluctuations in voter intentions.  And Mainstreet has, from what I've heard, always had a huge Con bias in its polling results.

 

MM might have an obsession for Doug Ford (this is not his first thread about the Fords..he's hosted a liabrary of Ford threads)

But you have to admit,things don't look good for the NDP. And as been mentioned,what's surprising about Ontarians voting for far-right candidates. I mean Mike Harris majorities? When talking about solid waste,Mike Harris is just that. Funny how you don't see much of him at all. I'm sure the possibility of him getting physically attacked is real.

Everyone to the Left of Attilla The Hun makes up a huge majority of  Canadians. Maybe a ​slight​ majority of Americans too but much much less.

But Ken,I can't speak for your parts of the world. It's kind of maddening when you're being lectured about domestic politics from a foreigner.

The only reason why anybody​ would run to the Liberals is because the opposition or the alternative is a shitbag like Doug Ford who really is to the RIGHT of Attilla The Hun.

And provincially you're witnessing party and leader after leader being to the right of Attilla The Hun.

In the end it's a choice between a party that is to the LEFT of Attilla The Hun or a party that is to the RIGHT of Attilla The Hun.

It's the ONLY reason leftists turn to the Liberals. And it's going to remain that way until the NDP becomes relevant. Their numbers provincially and federally are very,very low. Maybe higher in BC but low everywhere else. And Notley will be turfed by Kenney and the Attilla The Hun Party next election.

We are edging close to a right wing Conservative North America from Miami to Vancouver. This is highly disturbing. And those of us who recognize we're veering into a nightmare will vote for whomever has any chance of stopping these right of Attilla The Hun parties and leaders and members.

Why shame Canadians when you live in the States.Clinton was the worst candidate? You've got a bigger problem now.

In the end it's a choice between a party that is to the LEFT of Attilla The Hun or a party that is to the RIGHT of Attilla The Hun.

We Huns resent being stereotyped. We are quite reasonable, if not entirely literate folk. It's those lunatics to the right of Tamerlane that cause all the grief. In Canada, "to the right of Attila" refers to the political center. Please adjust your confirmation bias accordingly.

I, like everyone else here, does not know who is going to win this election.

Certainly, Ford has the best chance, but there have been massive turnarounds in many campaigns in recent years. Christy Clark overcame a 20% deficit going int the 2013 election, Rachel Notley won in Alberta despite being at 17% two months before the 2015 election, all three federal parties led at some point in 2015 election, the Ontario Liberals came from polls showing them up to 14% and 9% behind in the 2011 and 2014 Ontario elections, the Manitoba NDP were behind by 15% nine days before election day in an Angus Reid poll and won in 2011, the Quebec Liberals trailed in 16 of 17 polls, including one that showed them down 13% two days before the election in 2012, but ended up winning, and Trump trailed Clinton by 10% in August and by 6% until Comey relaunched his investigation into Clinton email's with less than two weeks to go until election day.

The Liberal assumption of this thread is that anybody from the left should vote for the  centre-right government that has been on an austerity program since the last election where it promised, just like today, a vast array of social programs and provided austerity until the next election stared them in the face.

However, the Liberals facing one daunting task in improving their share of the vote. Wynne's net approval rating is MINUS 50%, compared to Ford's +6% and Horvath's +17% (https://www.campaignresearch.ca/single-post/2018/03/15/Doug-Fords-PC-Par...).

Since modern campaigns essentially revolve around political parties' leader, this is an enormous obstacle for Wynne to overcome. Horvath, on the other hand, is the most popular leader of the three, giving her a good start out of the election blocks. 

Who will win remains to be seen. But continually proclaiming that the Liberals are the only choice to beat Ford is like crying wolf continuously. People just tune you out. 

Who here is saying VOTE LIBERAL to stop (usually speaking) Conservatives?  

I think the only thing being implied is sometimes the NDP is not the answer. In a perfect world,the NDP both federally and provincially would be up at 36 or 38% in the polls and would win a majority.

Because the NDP never won a majoprity on the federal level,none of us can say with certainty that they'd give us everything we want. If you were to compare the NDP governments that have been elected provincially,few,if none showed much or anything progressive. Meet the new boss,same as the old boss does not just apply to the Conservatives and the Liberals.If you compare NDP provincial governments,they  govern like the Liberals. In fact the current NDP government in Alberta is centre-right. 

Let's not forget Mulcair's penchant for balancing the budget and praising Maggie Thatcher.

Who is to say that the NDP would get us out of wars we don't belong in or get out of trade agreements or implement a progressive domestic policy?

If we are to look at NDP governments in the provinces,they would most likely continue with Free Trade deals,continue sending Canadian soldiers to the Middle East or outside Ukraine and continue 'austerity'

In short I wouldn't expect them to govern much if at all differently than the Liberals.

These are facts,inconvenient,but facts.

The country comes first. Not the party or any party for that matter.

If people want to stop the current far-right Conservatives in Canada,the US and in Europe they will vote for whomever has the best chance to keep them in the fringes where they belong.

Shaming people for putting the country over hyper-partisan dogma is counter-productive. There's no shame in doing what you have to do to stop this fringe movemnet from growing. If that means voting Liberal,there's no shame in that and at the moment they are the only alternative.Not until the NDP can get to at least 30% will they become another alternative,an alternative that may oor may not be better than the Liberal option.

It's understanding nuance. It's being able to look through the trees to the forest,it's about the big picture.

Conservatives are not the same as they were 35,40,45 years ago. They've become psychotic. From Ottawa through the provinces through the United States through to Europe. It's about rejecting xenophobes and oligarchs. It's aboout rejecting an ideology that is radical,injurious and a danger to both the populace,democracy and the country as a whole.

Some people would like to think that a Conservative government would be the same as a Liberal government...OR BETTER. Is there such thing as being so left wing that you're right wing? I don't think so. You either care about your family,your neighbours,your community and your country or you don't. And you'd be perfectly fine watching it all burn down rather than make an effort to stop the disaster that is awaiting all of us around the corner as 2018 goes on and 2019 is right around the corner.

I don't know who is going to win the Ontario election. That poll having the Conservatives at just over 50% support smells nasty. I don't buy that. Doug Ford is a troglodyte as is his peers. It's never a good time to give the mouth breathers and knuckle draggers ANY power -- period.

Don't complain when this continent becomes one huge Red State and you did NOTHING to stop it.

cco wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

 

All of two weeks ago, the Ontario Liberals were in 3rd place behind the NDP. All the people who've spent the past 70 years preaching that socialists should vote Liberal to stop the Tories would, one might've thought, suddenly endorse voting NDP for the same reason. Instead, they went mysteriously silent until the Liberals leapfrogged the NDP again.

It's certainly true that many (all?) provincial NDP governments have been disappointments. It's definitely true that Liberal governments have been disappointments. So I guess the only reason to even show up to vote at all is if you're a Conservative, eh? Why bother at least taking the chance of getting what you want, when you can vote for what you don't want and be certain of getting it?

Hell,I'm not telling people how to vote. But personally I'd be more inclined to vote NDP if they can get to the 30% threshold. Then they have a chance. They are currently having a hard time staying at 20% It's too dangerous to split the vote(the federal NDP that is)

It's going to stay that way until the Left unites like the Right did. They were dead,finished but then they united and now they are far from dead. When are we going to learn?

As for the Ontario provincial NDP,I don't know where they are exactly in the polls but according to MM,they are in third place and Ford's Conservatives have an unbelievable 50+%.

Fact or fiction,I don't know.It smells funny,that's all I'm saying.

BTW,I'm not ignoring the fact that we have had terrible Liberal governments. WEe've had some doozies starting provincially with Robert Bourassa and federally with Chretien and Martin.

But the LPC didn't start neoliberal policies. That all started with Mulroney in the 80's. If the Liberals would have kept their campaign promises in 1993,they'd still be in power,Harper would never had happened and mixed in with their recent promises,they could have held power for 50 years.

The problem with the Liberals is they are stupid. What could have been for them....

Put aside partisan garbage and unite the Left. A Liberal/NDP coalition would destroy any hope of Ford winning the election. Just need a new leadership race and name 50% of cabinet positions to the Liberals and 50% to the NDP. Become 1 party like the Conservatives did after getting annhilated in 1993. Rebrand yourselves if you have to.

Weed out the 'conservatives' in both parties. Commit to left wing progressive policy.

By the way,if you look at that poll,if the Liberal/NDP coalition happened,it would not only put them over the Conservatives,but brain dead NDPers would drop their supposed support for Ford to nothing.

With the 2 parties united,a Conservative government would happen once every 25 or 30 years. This is a fact. And it should be going oon in the provinces and in Ottawa.

For the good of the country. 

laine lowe wrote:

I'm certainly pissed off with all the people who voted Conservative in Manitoba. Pallister is a nightmare. He's a racist and sexist. And he has seriously slashed healthcare and education.

I'll soon relate with your anger after the Quebec election when CAQ wins and shows Quebec what austerity REALLY is and they are also a racist party supported heavily by La Meute.

I'll be feeling your pain.

alan smithee wrote:

Martin N. wrote:

 

In the end it's a choice between a party that is to the LEFT of Attilla The Hun or a party that is to the RIGHT of Attilla The Hun.

We Huns resent being stereotyped. We are quite reasonable, if not entirely literate folk. It's those lunatics to the right of Tamerlane that cause all the grief. In Canada, "to the right of Attila" refers to the political center. Please adjust your confirmation bias accordingly.

Attilla The Hun,Tamerlane..they were both low lives and their contemporaries are just as sickening as the both of them.

Yes, I understand the loathing but you have to admit we Huns have come a long way in our treatment of the opposition. While you rightly fear us, back in the day we simply salted the earth over the bones of our opposition rather than all this time consuming socializing of risk and privatizing of profit.

Ken Burch wrote:

But it comes to the question everybody everywhere has to address sometime:  are we all supposed to settle, for the rest of eternity, for nothing more than stopping the worst outcome?  If so, why even get out of bed, let alone vote?

This is why we need electoral reform to get rid of FPTP. As long as we have FPTP we will continue to have the strategic voting that goes with it.

Mr. Magoo wrote:

As a Torontonian, I survived both a Mike Harris/Ernie Eves provincial government, and also a Rob Ford mayorship.  Am I really supposed to be too scared to vote NDP?

No...but we're all amazed you're still sober after all that.

Assuming that Ontario is a satistically significant sample of Canada, incomes in Ontario would probably match the federal income profile as seen here:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil105a-eng...

Thus 30% of Ontarians would probably be on $20,000 or less, the median income in Ontario would be about $34,000, and if you made $50,000, you would have a higher income than two thirds of Ontarians.

Being on the median Canadian income in Toronto would make you poor, if you had to pay $1200-$1600 a month in rent or so while trying to support a family. Rent wouldn't be so bad if you lived in a place like Oshawa or Windsor, but there are few jobs there which could pay you $34,000. If you don't have a car in these towns, forget about it, and add another $500-$800 a month to your cost of living. 

It can be concluded from the above statistics that most people are destitute, very poor, poor, or struggling to make it. If you live in Toronto, you really need an income of about $75,000 just to keep your head above the water, and to have any kind of life outside work and sleep. $100,000 and you could actually do some shopping once in a while.

That puts you in the top 16.5% of income earners if you are on $75,000 and 8.2% if you are on $100,000. Which writes off 84% and 91% of Canadians respectively. 

Our concerns about people being poor are dismissed by progressives. They talk in vague terms about income and wealth inequality and will not admit that most Canadians are poor and struggling, because to do so would be to admit that as part of the political class, they have failed Canadians. The same progressives will not commit to any solutions, and will always defer it to a policy convention down the road. The NDP are not going to do anything for me, because to do so would be to do something.

This is of no use whatsoever to the 30% of Canadians on 20K and under. Doug Ford can say that his father grew up in crushing poverty. The progressive who never knew this kind of poverty has nothing to spill but ideology, rhetoric, and platitudes. They'll give you a fist bump instead of shaking your hand because it is less likely to transmit disease.

However there are a lot of people in Ontario who have very conservative social views ranging to the racist, homophobic, xenophobic, misogynist, white Anglo supremacist, Christian exceptionalist, social darwinist, etc. To live in society they have to declare otherwise, signing on to codes of conduct and obeying various other deontologies. But in the ballot box, they can express how they really feel. Kathleen Wynne has been rubbing them the wrong way in almost every one of these directions. I don't think there is any solution to that. She is the way she is, and good on her for that, and they are the way they are, and not so good on them for that. They look at Doug Ford Jr., and they know he is not going to be like Kathleen Wynne.

One family emergency or other crisis, and we (pretty well anyone on $50,000 or less - or 2/3 of Canadians) are fucked. Money which doesn't exist has to go out, and money which was supposed to come in from time at work doesn't come in.

So with the majority of Canadians being poor or struggling on insufficient incomes, why are they voting for Doug Ford in such large numbers? In two words, their answer is "fuck you".

Trying to put it into more than two words, we now have Liberals associating themselves with "progressivism". This associates Ontario Liberal corruption with progressivism. Many people only interpret each movement of a Liberal regime in terms of how it will help it keep power for the longest period of time. Many feel that Liberals are only in it for themselves and their friends, as it always has been, as it is, and as it will be. 

Now having poisoned progressivism with traditional Ontario Liberal corruption, if anyone tries to say anything progressive, the interpretation will be "Oh you are just being a Liberal, trying to help your friends." If you protest that you are an NDP, the answer will be "Same difference. You want to hire your friends to solve my problems."

For most, the NDP are the Liberals with none of the excitement. The same rage which is propelling Wynne out of office is the same rage which did so to Bob Rae. On the doorstep you are going to hear that "We have always voted PC", which means their parents voted for Mike Harris, and they are going to vote for Doug Ford Jr. Outside Toronto and Ottawa, I bet you will not find one Liberal sign. People would throw stones at your house if you put one up. NDP signs are OK out there because "At least the NDP stands for something, and they don't stand a chance anyway, but don't forget about Bob Rae." It is all right to be idealistic so long as you do not threaten the status quo. Supporting the NDP is the perfect way to do that, which every poor person in Canada knows. 

Now I hear a stark admission by progressives that the only way to stop Conservatives is to change the electoral game. The NDP has won majority FPTP elections. Are you giving up the ghost? If Ford actually does pull over 50%, he would have won absolute power in any electoral system. Using the idea of a fair vote is not exactly the best motivation if you want to use it to fuck over party X or party Y. It might make people you have no principles at all, and you are just rigging the system for your own personal political power.

When Ford says he has "NDP supporters" what he also means is he has people who should be NDP supporters, because they are poor. He shares their rage and for some reason gives them hope. As we see by looking at the chart, most Canadians are pretty well financially fucked. Almost 15,000,000 wage and salary earners have to support 26,810,840 people including themselves. That means the average wage and salary earner is supporting 0.78 of a person not including themselves. Financially they are worse off than someone who only needs to support themselves. Even on $50,000 a year, a person with any dependents could be rendered quite poor by having to support a family. With dependents, a person on the median income of $34,000 is virtually destitute and a person on $20,000 is completely destitute.

Some of you might be surprised at these statistics, not realizing how bad it was. When I discovered I was almost at the median on about $15 an hour with holiday pay, it made me realize that almost half of Canadians are worse off than I. Silent poverty you don't see on the streets. Silent poverty which thinks its state of existence is its own fault. Silent poverty which thinks it is the only one, and no one is out there trying to disabuse them of this notion.

They can only live vicariously through the rich and famous because they have no life of their own except ceaseless worry about rent, food, and bills.

There could be some sly NDP supporters supporting Ford. For some revolutionary socialists, worst is best. Always support the worst possible capitalist government to bring the best conditions for proletarian enlightenment. Vote Tory and demonstrate against their cuts the next day, UK style.

Others could be poor NDP supporters who realized that the NDP really couldn't give a fuck about them.

No Passion. No Policies. No Politics. No Power. You never gave a fuck about the icky poor, of which we are so many. Doug Ford pretends he does, and that is good enough for them.

The only way to pull it out is to up the ante. Make people feel more emotions than Doug Ford Jr. is by saying nothing. There are a lot of people you could connect with, as the statistics show. Rightfully, they should be your political concern.

Talking about taxes ain't going to cut it.

Alan, what you say all makes logical sense. The problem is that logic does not work in politics any more. Maybe it never did, if you think about it.

The Canadian Left tries to make logical appeals all the time, and they are consistently ignored. The Canadian Left with its $2,000 bespoke suits and $1,000 cell phones. And other clothes from the Bay or neighboring boutiques, made from the finest imported bolts, or pre-assembled in Vietnam. Because of the way he dresses, Singh wants us to know he is superior to us, the great unwashed. He will tell us what for, in no uncertain terms. He passed the Bar Exam. We didn't. The turban is of no concern. There are plenty of turbans in the various parliaments and legislatures across Canada. But if Singh wants people to trust him, he has to stop looking like a lawyer. If you want to knock on doors, you never wear a suit more expensive than the people you are seeing can afford. Moore's. And never banker's blue when you are seeing people. And fuck, the pinstripes? Pinstripes should be seen only at close quarters and NEVER heard! It gives you that snake oil salesman look!

Earth tones for the common man and woman. Even Rob Ford knew that!

The Canadian Left with its ideological purity and complete unconcern for the poor. If you are a real Left activist who goes out and helps people, this is not aimed at you. Through knowledge, guile, connections, and experience, you can lead poor people to more resources and services, and lower their cost of existence. But you can only help one person at a time, or you will quickly get stressed. If the system helped them with basic needs, you could move up a rung or two on Maslow's pyramid in your ministry.

The Canadian Left is simply not trusted by the vast majority who are poor and/or struggling, as the Canadian Left has done nothing for them in a very long while.

You can't really blame the rich when you are trying to harvest the votes of the poor, as many will fear they will lose what little jobs they have if you tax them. They are also conditioned by TV to believe that everyone should be rich. Many hope they will win the lottery and become rich themselves, without realizing that playing the lottery is making them poorer all the time. No one ever seems to lose the lottery. Instead of blaming the rich, you should blame yourselves. We are the ones who have failed you, Mr. and Ms. Destitute Canadian. We should have helped you, and we didn't. 

Most poor people are not in unions and have to have a corporate attitude to survive. Otherwise they have a "Bad Attitude" and are let go. The political focus should be on spreading money around so the boss can get more orders and work can get better. Then the boss can afford more taxes. NOT tax the boss more so we can give the money to the poor.

Sadly, the political mentation from Doug Ford supporters will run something like these:

"My family is poor, and you and your NDP and Liberal friends have done nothing to help us in generations. Fuck you and the streetcar you rode in on. I might as well vote for Doug Ford. At least he is going to kiss me before he fucks me." Wynne and Horwath lose.

"I've never been able to get a union job because I don't have family or friends in a union. Fuck unions, and fuck you for supporting them. I am not going to have taxes go to unions. Ford is a Conservative, and he will do whatever he can to fuck the unions, which I like. Fuck them, and fuck you." (Clearly, if half of Canadians are on $34,000 or less (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil105a-eng...), they are either not in a union, or in a very shitty union). Maybe that is the half that are voting for Doug Ford. Horwath loses.

"Fuck cultural industries. They send their top bureaucrats to LA for awards ceremonies while my buddy here can't make $25 for a gig at the local bar." Wynne loses.

"Government workers on $100,000 make three times as much as me. Why should I pay for their salaries? They do nothing for me but give me traffic tickets and tell my relatives they don't qualify for Ontario Disability. Doctor? What Doctor? Where? When? They never have helped us. Ford will cut them down. Seeing them suffer like I do will make me a bit more happy." Horwath loses.

"Who is your candidate anyway? A LAWYER? FUCK YOU!" Singh loses. And every other fucking lawyer.

"You have not given a shit about our poverty in a very long time as you have concentrated on your constituencies in government unions and identity groups. You have not listened. You have not been sympathetic. You have not proposed any solutions. You. Have. Not. Fucking. Done. Anything. You have not come out to see us and find out what is going on. Maybe if we vote for Doug Ford you will listen." Wynne loses.

I am a bit more logical than this, but I know where it is coming from. The abject poverty faced by millions of Canadians every day, and the absolute failure of the Left and progressive forces to do anything for them for decades.

The people have given up on you, progressives and the Left! You are sad and impotent. You do not want to do anything but mewl about income inequality on your way to the latest Tapas joint that opened up and got great reviews in Now Magazine. You have to shut us, the unwashed poor, out of your politics and your unions and then unironically dismiss half the population as lumpenproletarians.

The poor are at the very least a huge plurality in an FPTP system, and if you count anyone on $50,000 with 2 dependents as poor (3 people under the poverty line), you have a massive absolute majority in any kind of FPTP, French-style runoff, or MMP political system.

You are not doing anything for the poor so they are not voting for you. It doesn't matter how you fuck with the electoral system. If you don't start actually doing something for poor people, your political party is going to die. The NDP has a history, but that is for the books. It has nothing to do with what you are going to do today.

progressive17 wrote:

Alan, what you say all makes logical sense. The problem is that logic does not work in politics any more. Maybe it never did, if you think about it.

The Canadian Left tries to make logical appeals all the time, and they are consistently ignored. The Canadian Left with its $2,000 bespoke suits and $1,000 cell phones. And other clothes from the Bay or neighboring boutiques, made from the finest imported bolts, or pre-assembled in Vietnam. Because of the way he dresses, Singh wants us to know he is superior to us, the great unwashed. He will tell us what for, in no uncertain terms. He passed the Bar Exam. We didn't. The turban is of no concern. There are plenty of turbans in the various parliaments and legislatures across Canada. But if Singh wants people to trust him, he has to stop looking like a lawyer. If you want to knock on doors, you never wear a suit more expensive than the people you are seeing can afford. Moore's. And never banker's blue when you are seeing people. And fuck, the pinstripes? Pinstripes should be seen only at close quarters and NEVER heard! It gives you that snake oil salesman look!

Earth tones for the common man and woman. Even Rob Ford knew that!

The Canadian Left with its ideological purity and complete unconcern for the poor. If you are a real Left activist who goes out and helps people, this is not aimed at you. Through knowledge, guile, connections, and experience, you can lead poor people to more resources and services, and lower their cost of existence. But you can only help one person at a time, or you will quickly get stressed. If the system helped them with basic needs, you could move up a rung or two on Maslow's pyramid in your ministry.

The Canadian Left is simply not trusted by the vast majority who are poor and/or struggling, as the Canadian Left has done nothing for them in a very long while.

You can't really blame the rich when you are trying to harvest the votes of the poor, as many will fear they will lose what little jobs they have if you tax them. They are also conditioned by TV to believe that everyone should be rich. Many hope they will win the lottery and become rich themselves, without realizing that playing the lottery is making them poorer all the time. No one ever seems to lose the lottery. Instead of blaming the rich, you should blame yourselves. We are the ones who have failed you, Mr. and Ms. Destitute Canadian. We should have helped you, and we didn't. 

Most poor people are not in unions and have to have a corporate attitude to survive. Otherwise they have a "Bad Attitude" and are let go. The political focus should be on spreading money around so the boss can get more orders and work can get better. Then the boss can afford more taxes. NOT tax the boss more so we can give the money to the poor.

Sadly, the political mentation from Doug Ford supporters will run something like these:

"My family is poor, and you and your NDP and Liberal friends have done nothing to help us in generations. Fuck you and the streetcar you rode in on. I might as well vote for Doug Ford. At least he is going to kiss me before he fucks me." Wynne and Horwath lose.

"I've never been able to get a union job because I don't have family or friends in a union. Fuck unions, and fuck you for supporting them. I am not going to have taxes go to unions. Ford is a Conservative, and he will do whatever he can to fuck the unions, which I like. Fuck them, and fuck you." (Clearly, if half of Canadians are on $34,000 or less (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil105a-eng...), they are either not in a union, or in a very shitty union). Maybe that is the half that are voting for Doug Ford. Horwath loses.

"Fuck cultural industries. They send their top bureaucrats to LA for awards ceremonies while my buddy here can't make $25 for a gig at the local bar." Wynne loses.

"Government workers on $100,000 make three times as much as me. Why should I pay for their salaries? They do nothing for me but give me traffic tickets and tell my relatives they don't qualify for Ontario Disability. Doctor? What Doctor? Where? When? They never have helped us. Ford will cut them down. Seeing them suffer like I do will make me a bit more happy." Horwath loses.

"Who is your candidate anyway? A LAWYER? FUCK YOU!" Singh loses. And every other fucking lawyer.

"You have not given a shit about our poverty in a very long time as you have concentrated on your constituencies in government unions and identity groups. You have not listened. You have not been sympathetic. You have not proposed any solutions. You. Have. Not. Fucking. Done. Anything. You have not come out to see us and find out what is going on. Maybe if we vote for Doug Ford you will listen." Wynne loses.

I am a bit more logical than this, but I know where it is coming from. The abject poverty faced by millions of Canadians every day, and the absolute failure of the Left and progressive forces to do anything for them for decades.

The people have given up on you, progressives and the Left! You are sad and impotent. You do not want to do anything but mewl about income inequality on your way to the latest Tapas joint that opened up and got great reviews in Now Magazine. You have to shut us, the unwashed poor, out of your politics and your unions and then unironically dismiss half the population as lumpenproletarians.

The poor are at the very least a huge plurality in an FPTP system, and if you count anyone on $50,000 with 2 dependents as poor (3 people under the poverty line), you have a massive absolute majority in any kind of FPTP, French-style runoff, or MMP political system.

You are not doing anything for the poor so they are not voting for you. It doesn't matter how you fuck with the electoral system. If you don't start actually doing something for poor people, your political party is going to die. The NDP has a history, but that is for the books. It has nothing to do with what you are going to do today.

That was really well said.And sadly accurate. I just think if you lean to the left,you're not sending a message to the NDP OR the Liberals by voting Conservative. What you're doing is fucking yourselves. It's counter-productive.It's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

But as I said,what you said rings true. Sadly,most people know jack shit about politics. This is why it's in vogue to call yourself Conservative and act like a total asshole in the US.They know no better they are so uninformed.They are the most uninformed,ignorant and most easily manipulated people on the planet. Save maybe a handful of Americans.

Here,the poor which includes most of us,voting against their own self interest is pathetic. But that's exactly what they do or we'd never have a Conservative government in Ottawa,Quebec City,Toronto,etc..

This is the reason why you should have to pass a written test proving that you are well informed on the policies of each party before you can vote. This is pie in sky talk but I think it's a good idea.

Anyway,you said it all. I don't have much to add.

Mighty Middle wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

What I said was that that has been the agenda of all your Rob Ford threads and most of the other threads you've posted on electoral strategy-it has all been about pressuring everybody into "strategic voting". 

Can you provide quotes from previous threads where I pressured people to vote strategically?

Mighty Middle can you provide three examples of when you discussed an issue as an issue rather than as a rationale to vote Liberal or to complain about other posters views?

Mighty Middle wrote:

jerrym wrote:

Mighty Middle can you provide three examples of when you discussed an issue as an issue rather than as a rationale to vote Liberal or to complain about other posters views?

Sure

Jagmeet Singh - Taxes are an investment in the future

http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/jagmeet-singh-taxes-are-invest...

EVERY Province Has Had A Female NDP Leader

http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/every-province-has-had-female-...

Donald Trump & NAFTA

http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/donald-trump-nafta

OK so now your turn. Please show me any text I have written where I have urged people  to vote strategically.

Thanks!

Not necessary.  It's the barely-hidden subtext of almost every thread you start.  It doesn't matter whether or not you use the words-you've been clever enough not to say it directly.  But it's always the insinuation and everybody else here knows it.

You're point in starting this thread, for example, is to imply that people who vote NDP in the coming Ontario election would be responsible for Doug Ford getting a majority-never mind that there is virtually no region in the province when it would stop the PC's from gaining seats if people who voted NDP last time swung to the Liberals this time.  Ridings like that simply don't exist in Ontario this year, and may not ever exist again.  If you want Ford stopped, why don't you spend an equal amount of time calling on the Liberals to reach out to the NDP and support NDP candidates in races(and there are a lot of them)where only the NDP candidate can beat the right?

progressive17 wrote:

Assuming that Ontario is a satistically significant sample of Canada, incomes in Ontario would probably match the federal income profile as seen here:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil105a-eng...

Thus 30% of Ontarians would probably be on $20,000 or less, the median income in Ontario would be about $34,000, and if you made $50,000, you would have a higher income than two thirds of Ontarians.

Being on the median Canadian income in Toronto would make you poor, if you had to pay $1200-$1600 a month in rent or so while trying to support a family. Rent wouldn't be so bad if you lived in a place like Oshawa or Windsor, but there are few jobs there which could pay you $34,000. If you don't have a car in these towns, forget about it, and add another $500-$800 a month to your cost of living. 

It can be concluded from the above statistics that most people are destitute, very poor, poor, or struggling to make it. If you live in Toronto, you really need an income of about $75,000 just to keep your head above the water, and to have any kind of life outside work and sleep. $100,000 and you could actually do some shopping once in a while.

That puts you in the top 16.5% of income earners if you are on $75,000 and 8.2% if you are on $100,000. Which writes off 84% and 91% of Canadians respectively. 

Our concerns about people being poor are dismissed by progressives. They talk in vague terms about income and wealth inequality and will not admit that most Canadians are poor and struggling, because to do so would be to admit that as part of the political class, they have failed Canadians. The same progressives will not commit to any solutions, and will always defer it to a policy convention down the road. The NDP are not going to do anything for me, because to do so would be to do something.

This is of no use whatsoever to the 30% of Canadians on 20K and under. Doug Ford can say that his father grew up in crushing poverty. The progressive who never knew this kind of poverty has nothing to spill but ideology, rhetoric, and platitudes. They'll give you a fist bump instead of shaking your hand because it is less likely to transmit disease.

However there are a lot of people in Ontario who have very conservative social views ranging to the racist, homophobic, xenophobic, misogynist, white Anglo supremacist, Christian exceptionalist, social darwinist, etc. To live in society they have to declare otherwise, signing on to codes of conduct and obeying various other deontologies. But in the ballot box, they can express how they really feel. Kathleen Wynne has been rubbing them the wrong way in almost every one of these directions. I don't think there is any solution to that. She is the way she is, and good on her for that, and they are the way they are, and not so good on them for that. They look at Doug Ford Jr., and they know he is not going to be like Kathleen Wynne.

One family emergency or other crisis, and we (pretty well anyone on $50,000 or less - or 2/3 of Canadians) are fucked. Money which doesn't exist has to go out, and money which was supposed to come in from time at work doesn't come in.

So with the majority of Canadians being poor or struggling on insufficient incomes, why are they voting for Doug Ford in such large numbers? In two words, their answer is "fuck you".

Trying to put it into more than two words, we now have Liberals associating themselves with "progressivism". This associates Ontario Liberal corruption with progressivism. Many people only interpret each movement of a Liberal regime in terms of how it will help it keep power for the longest period of time. Many feel that Liberals are only in it for themselves and their friends, as it always has been, as it is, and as it will be. 

Now having poisoned progressivism with traditional Ontario Liberal corruption, if anyone tries to say anything progressive, the interpretation will be "Oh you are just being a Liberal, trying to help your friends." If you protest that you are an NDP, the answer will be "Same difference. You want to hire your friends to solve my problems."

For most, the NDP are the Liberals with none of the excitement. The same rage which is propelling Wynne out of office is the same rage which did so to Bob Rae. On the doorstep you are going to hear that "We have always voted PC", which means their parents voted for Mike Harris, and they are going to vote for Doug Ford Jr. Outside Toronto and Ottawa, I bet you will not find one Liberal sign. People would throw stones at your house if you put one up. NDP signs are OK out there because "At least the NDP stands for something, and they don't stand a chance anyway, but don't forget about Bob Rae." It is all right to be idealistic so long as you do not threaten the status quo. Supporting the NDP is the perfect way to do that, which every poor person in Canada knows. 

Now I hear a stark admission by progressives that the only way to stop Conservatives is to change the electoral game. The NDP has won majority FPTP elections. Are you giving up the ghost? If Ford actually does pull over 50%, he would have won absolute power in any electoral system. Using the idea of a fair vote is not exactly the best motivation if you want to use it to fuck over party X or party Y. It might make people you have no principles at all, and you are just rigging the system for your own personal political power.

When Ford says he has "NDP supporters" what he also means is he has people who should be NDP supporters, because they are poor. He shares their rage and for some reason gives them hope. As we see by looking at the chart, most Canadians are pretty well financially fucked. Almost 15,000,000 wage and salary earners have to support 26,810,840 people including themselves. That means the average wage and salary earner is supporting 0.78 of a person not including themselves. Financially they are worse off than someone who only needs to support themselves. Even on $50,000 a year, a person with any dependents could be rendered quite poor by having to support a family. With dependents, a person on the median income of $34,000 is virtually destitute and a person on $20,000 is completely destitute.

Some of you might be surprised at these statistics, not realizing how bad it was. When I discovered I was almost at the median on about $15 an hour with holiday pay, it made me realize that almost half of Canadians are worse off than I. Silent poverty you don't see on the streets. Silent poverty which thinks its state of existence is its own fault. Silent poverty which thinks it is the only one, and no one is out there trying to disabuse them of this notion.

They can only live vicariously through the rich and famous because they have no life of their own except ceaseless worry about rent, food, and bills.

There could be some sly NDP supporters supporting Ford. For some revolutionary socialists, worst is best. Always support the worst possible capitalist government to bring the best conditions for proletarian enlightenment. Vote Tory and demonstrate against their cuts the next day, UK style.

Others could be poor NDP supporters who realized that the NDP really couldn't give a fuck about them.

No Passion. No Policies. No Politics. No Power. You never gave a fuck about the icky poor, of which we are so many. Doug Ford pretends he does, and that is good enough for them.

The only way to pull it out is to up the ante. Make people feel more emotions than Doug Ford Jr. is by saying nothing. There are a lot of people you could connect with, as the statistics show. Rightfully, they should be your political concern.

Talking about taxes ain't going to cut it.

Just clarifying that if this is for all peeople and all ages it would make sense. There are quite a few stats that show that the median income for working age people 18-65 is about $45,000.

This includes people living off previous income (retired) and those looking forward to careers who expect to be making more (students). This means that the perception of the interests of some who are low income in this statistic may in fact lie with higher incomes.

I do not think this difference affects your major conclusions but it does significantly alter your statistical interpretations.

That said I think more Canadians beleive the median income is closer to $80k than what it really is. Another point is that household median is $80,000 in income -- this includes single unit families and larger multi-earner families. The single units include very high income earners without dependents and people struggling earning well below the cost of maintaining an independent household. There are some serious issues in terms of these numbers because these are distorted by extremes. The fact that there are single people trying to live alone on incomes that are less than the average rental where they live is often hidden by both medians and averages and household statistics.

We have the highest number ever of individuals who are living with people they are not related to becuase they cannot afford to live alone.

"Our politics might be fucked but the population is REALLY fucked and at this point they are a lost cause."

As the mother mother said during the parade: "Oh look, everyone is out of step except my Johnny".

Martin N. wrote:

Martin N. wrote:

"Our politics might be fucked but the population is REALLY fucked and at this point they are a lost cause."

As the mother  said during the parade: "Oh look, everyone is out of step except my Johnny".

Martin N. wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Martin N. wrote:

Martin N. wrote:

"Our politics might be fucked but the population is REALLY fucked and at this point they are a lost cause."

As the mother  said during the parade: "Oh look, everyone is out of step except my Johnny".

Boy.you totally didnt understand what was written. Confused much?

You have my sincere apologies for understating the obvious but, in certain circles, decorum trumps objectivity.

3 years ago Canadians booted Harper out on his ass. The Anti-Harper crowd would dwarf President Adolf's inauguration (which apparently was UUUGE..just that no one but his groupies noticed the invisible people.) Everywhere was Fuck Harper here and Stop Harper there. It was real because his majority was defeated byu the 3rd place team.

Now Canadians are giving Andrew Scheer a serious look. Sorry,but what a bunch of losers. I doubt there are many here that would not question the sanity of the populace about this fact. Maybe you and the rest I can count on my hand.

That's not this 'little Johnny' the innocent boy shit. Now relax, put on some Parliament Funk and let that caffeine mellow you down,brother.

Oh,I'm aware of Ontario's right leaning tendencies,you don't have to tell me.

I live in Quebec...Montreal to be exact. The regions loved him,the Montreal area was a different story (which should come as no surprise seeing we haven't voted in a Conservative since 1988)

Sorry. Harper was not disliked..he was hated. Everyone but right wingers.

And Trudeau is worse than Harper? Are you fucking kidding me? Harper never had his numbers in the 9 years of his tyranny. It's only recently that Trudeau's numbers have been falling.

Mulroney was hated more,granted but Harper was loathed in Quebec. Hence,the Orange Wave. Hence,the way he'd hide himself when he visited Montreal. You underestimate that fact,mate.

And I think anyone on the Left that hates Trudeau more than Harper would be hyper-partisan NDP supporters who would rather vote for a maniac like Harper or Scheer. Just the fact that Scheer wants to recognize Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel should make anyone on the Left's skin crawl.

Sorry. The Liberals aren't that bad. If you feel that you're sending a message to the Liberals OR the NDP by voting Conservative,you're just fucking yourself in the ass with a straight razor.

And that would also disqualify you from calling yourself a Progressive.

voice of the damned wrote:

 

 

 

Oh,I'm aware of Ontario's right leaning tendencies,you don't have to tell me.

Okay, well then it shouldn't be a mystery to you why people in Ontario(and by extrapolation, a few other provinces) might be willing to give guys like Ford and Scheer the time of day, notwithstanding the Fuck Harper bumper-stickers from three years ago.  

It's not a mystery. When the Orange Wave happened in Quebec,Ontario fucked things up really bad. If they would have voted NDP instead of the fascist Conservatives,everyone here would have gotten exactly what they wanted.

It's Ontario that decides elections. Harper's majority was not the making of Quebec,it was made by Ontario.

Maybe I live in a Montreal bubble but every Stop sign in town was added the word 'Harper' under arret. Walls were full of Fuck Harper graffitti,people referred to him as Con (French,not meaning Conservative) and cave and crosseur,etc,etc..

Conservatives don't win Quebec. Defdinitely now with Scheer at the wheel. Harper would come to Montreal and always visit Jewish communities because he didn't want to be greeted by angry protesters,he wanted a friendly safe environment for the photo ops and news TV. He came to a Montreal Canadien game and instead of following tradition and unveiling a new stamp at the beginning of the game,he did it hours earlier in the safety of a closed to the public room. And didn't follow tradition by taking a seat and watching the game. He was scared because he didn't want to get BOOED.

He followed tradition in every other hockey market. Because it's the ROC that holds this country back from any progress,save British Columbia. So basically it's the Prairies and as I said,it's Ontario that decides elections. And THAT is how he got a majority. Also,he opponent was impotent.