Brexit - Has It Failed!

progressive17 wrote:

Shame. I wanted to see England suffer, as they have made many others in this world suffer. Brexit would have been perfect.

Well, were I a socialist in the UK, I am not sure I would want to see more economic misery inflicted upon the general population as payback for the Empire, any more than I would want to see more misery inflicted upon Canadians as payback for colonization.

As for the article...

Doing nothing: Article 50 of the European Union agreement has specific rules for how members can voluntarily exit the EU. The U.K. will lose the membership in both the common union and its customs agreement; a negotiated set of replacement treaties and rules would be proposed, which then would require ratification by both the EU and the U.K. The key economic aspect is that all of the advantages of the EU treaties covering trade relations among members would be replaced by less-favorable covenants. How much of a disadvantage this amounts to is the subject of debate between all concerned. The bottom line it that whether the Brits get a full withdrawal agreement, or only a temporary transitional agreement, it is likely to be much less friendly to the U.K. economy then staying in the EU.  

Okay, but if the UK fails to ratify the replacement treaty, is the EU just gonna say "Oh hey, no problem, we'll let you stay with everything being like it was before."

Europe makes leaving impossible: I don’t see any reason why the EU would do anything other than make this as uncomfortable for Britain as possible. Basic game theory suggests that the EU’s interests lie in the exact opposite direction, to make exiting as difficult as possible in order to discourage others from departing. There is no reason to expect the EU to reverse course.

Yeah, but the only thing worse for Europe than a comfortable BREXIT would be a comfortable reversal of BREXIT. Because the message to every other EU member government would be "Fell free to pander to your populist crazies, we won't actually hold you to account for anything."
 

^ I think people can be expected to sacrifice a little in order to redress the crimes of the past, especially if they are still benefitting from those crimes, eg. if you live on land that was stolen from First Nations(ie. all of the western hemisphere), you can be expected to pay a little more in taxes to compensate them for what took place.

But I don't think that such sacrifice, much less anything that can reasonably be described as "suffering", should be the point of the compensation.

Suffering will do you a world of good! Everyone should try it some time, unless they have had it imposed on them by others. Suffering builds character. I only want what's best for England.

progressive17 wrote:

Suffering will do you a world of good! Everyone should try it some time, unless they have had it imposed on them by others. Suffering builds character. I only want what's best for England.

You can't hold every Englishperson who will ever exist, for the rest of eternity, personally culpable for the actions of the Empire.   Also, inflicting collective economic punishment on the English would mean inflicting it on the Scots, the Welsh, and both communities in Northern Ireland...people who were the first victims of English imperialism, people who had no power to stop Downing Street, Whitehall and the Crown from doing any of the things they did to the colonized.

BTW...UKIP did not fight for Brexit as a gesture of anti-imperialism.  Many, if not most UKIP activists were nostaligic for the Imperial era...this wasn't about freeing up money for the NHS, it's about restoring the myth of Britain as an exclusively white Protestant country with a natural right to rule as much territory as it can steal, er, I mean, "conquer".

Mr. Magoo wrote:

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Also, inflicting collective economic punishment on the English would mean inflicting it on the Scots, the Welsh, and both communities in Northern Ireland.

Not giving the UK the same perks they enjoyed as EU members isn't really "punishment".

If I'm a member of a local tennis club, and that means getting to play on their courts for free, making me pay to use them after I quit in a huff isn't "punishment".   Perhaps American Express ads say it best:  "Membership has its priveleges".  The UK used to enjoy those priveleges, but have decided that other things are more important.

I was referring there to progressive 17' s wish to see the English "suffer", and his apparent belief that every British person unto their tenth generation, bears guilt for the crimes of the Raj.  

Not sure how much or how little damage Brexit will do to the average British person...had I lived there I'd have voted Remain-as Jeremy Corbyn did, after campaigning extensively against the Leave position-on anti-xenophobia grounds.  On the one hand, I've heard claims that Brexit would cause something between a recession and an actual depression in the UK...on the other, I've heard that EU membership requirements make social democracy, let alone anything close to socialism, impossible(and there is the misery the EU and the Troika continue to inflict on Greece).

It's hard to trust the neoliberals who fought for Remain-if Labour was going to campaign for Remain, it should have run its own, independent Remain effort rather than coordinating with the Tories and the pitiful remnants of the LibDems in an effort run largely on corporate/financial sector terms; on the other hand, it's hard to trust that anything Nigel Farage, a retired investment banker, would push for could possibly open any possibilities for radical, egalitarian change.

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I was referring there to progressive 17' s wish to see the English "suffer", and his apparent belief that every British person unto their tenth generation, bears guilt for the crimes of the Raj.

Well, OK.  But I think the most direct answer to his yearning for British "suffering" is still to point out that getting what you asked for isn't suffering, and that not receiving the benefits of membership when you're not a member isn't punishment.

I do agree with all the rest, though.  People in 2018 aren't responsible for the choices of people in 1818, or 1218, or whatever.

Bacchus wrote:

Um Corbyn is pro-brexit

No.  He campaigned for Remain, which proves he's not.  It's just that he thinks it would be undemocratic to fight to keep Britain in the EU after the voters decided on leaving.

Ken Burch wrote:

Bacchus wrote:

Um Corbyn is pro-brexit

No.  He campaigned for Remain, which proves he's not.  It's just that he thinks it would be undemocratic to fight to keep Britain in the EU after the voters decided on leaving.

He’s right, and while he did campaign somewhat tepidly for remain, he comes from the Labour tradition of Benn, Castle, Shore, etc. that opposed what became the EU.  Left to his own devices, he would have supported Brexit.

Ken Burch wrote:

Bacchus wrote:

No he is pro-brexit but the party iforced him to campaign for remain

Um Corbyn is pro-brexit

No.  He campaigned for Remain, which proves he's not.  It's just that he thinks it would be undemocratic to fight to keep Britain in the EU after the voters decided on leaving.

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It's viability rests on two pillars, the UK being part of the EU, and the UK retaining it's own currency.

On the good side, they can go back to shillings and farthings now, if they want.

What the English did to my family goes back many generations. What the English did to the indigenous people of Canada is something we still have to work out, and for which the English will not take any responsibility, even though the proceeds of colonial exploitation are still in the vaults of London. It seems that Anglo cheerleaders here want to deflect any liability for what they have done, even though they still enjoy the assets.

Power without Responsibility, the prerogative of a CENSORED.

I was hoping for Brexit, as it means a lower pound. This would mean they would have to pay more for food, as they can only produce 50% of their own. Also with Brexit, more tariffs would mean exports would be more expensive for them, making their balance of payments and hence the pound go further down.

The English have an innate sense of their own superiority, and like white Canadians, they are extremely racist. "The RACIAL SLURs start at Calais", as they used to say.

Perhaps sea warming and hence sea expansion will cause England to go under. I can only hope. Brexit would have caused a free Scotland and a united Ireland. I do not know why anyone would want it to fail.

Well, East Anglia would go, and so would London, which would be a good start. You can't have everything.

I only want others to suffer as much as I have. If I can take it, so can they.

[quote=progressive17]

I only want others to suffer as much as I have. If I can take it, so can they.

1) How did the British Empire cause suffering to your ancestors?​
​2) How long ago was this suffering inflicted?                                                                                                                                           3) How many generations past the generation that inflicted the suffering you speak of do you feel can be held responsible for said suffering?                                                                                                                                                                     4) Do you hold the non-English sector of the British population of the present responsible for suffering inflicted the English in the past?   if so, why, given that the Anglo-supremacism of the UK made it impossible for the non-English population of the UK to do anything to prevent the suffering you still speak of?                                                                             5) Do you hold working class and unemployed people in Britain in the present responsible for  the acts of the English aristocracy in the past?  If so, why, when the class system in that country would have made it impossible for those people to do anything to prevent the suffering in question?                                                                                                             6) Why do you prefer to avenge past suffering instead of seeking a world free of present and future suffeiring?

Clearly, you need to do some sort of work to move towards personal healing, because your statement there seems to indicate that your primary motivation in life is a desire for vengeance.  Nothing good comes to anyone of that, even to you.

And I don't speak of these matters as an outsider...one of MY ancestors was a Jacobite who fought to restore Scottish independence in "the '15", the first Jacobite Rising.  He was captured in the Battle of Preston and exiled to the Maryland Colony.  I also have some Irish ancestry.  Where I come from on this is that the best revenge is to struggle for a world where there are no more empires, rather than wishing to impose suffering on people who had no possible means to prevent the injustices of the past.  I'd recommend these words to you, from the Sandinista poet and politician Tomas Borge, as arranged by the singer Luis Enrique Mejia Godoy:  

My personal revenge will be your children’s right to schooling and to flowers. My personal revenge will be this song bursting for you with no more fears.

My personal revenge will be to make you see the goodness in my people’s eyes, implacable in combat always generous and firm in victory.

My personal revenge will be to greet you ‘Good morning!’ in streets with no beggars, when instead of locking you inside they say, ‘Don’t look so sad.’ When you, the torturer, daren’t lift your head, My personal revenge will be to give you these hands you once ill-treated with all their tenderness intact.

Ken Burch wrote:

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Brexit bad.

Grexit good.

Well yeah, since EU membership has brought(based on the brutal austerity demands so far)nothing but misery but Greece, and CAN bring nothing but misery for Greece, whereas the results have been far more mixed for the UK and EU membership there may have had some anti-racist and pro-immigrant results.

There's no requirement that the Left either support every departure from the EU or oppose every departure from the EU>

No, no requirement.  But if they want to fight the neo-liberal economic order, they would.

progressive17:

I don't doubt for a second you experienced some pretty vicious racism coughed up by the denizens of blessed Albion. My father once told me about seeing a limey couple arguing with a black nurse at an Edmonton hospital, and the wife ended her discourse with "We are British citizens, and you can go back wherever you came from!"

But really. Can you imagine what this forum would be like if everyone took their own injustices as a rationale to do what you're doing now?

"I got called a 'p*ki' growing up in Alberta! I hope the price of oil collapses and everyone in that fucking province loses their home!!"

"Yeah, well you should see how my First Nations relatives get treated in Saskatchwan! If another dust bowl wipes out all their crops tomorrow, it won't be soon enough!"

"Well, that's nothing compared to the gay bashing in Vancouver. Juan de Fuca Fault, do your thing!"

And so on and so forth. Might be amusing for a bit, but not anything that would do much for the quality of discussion, much less go any way toward solving the problems under discussion,  

progressive17 wrote:

Ken, answering many of those questions might doxx me. Not only do I have ancestral experience of English brutality, but I have personal experience of my own of same. I was taken there against my will as a child, and treated extremely badly by everyone there because I was a "foreigner" (even though this country spilled thousands of lives in defence of their stupid little island in the middle of nowhere). They had nothing but contempt for me just because of who I was. In all of their different socioeconomic groups. Educated people who should have known better, and the rest. 

If you are not English and you are in England, you know very well what I am talking about. You succeed despite them, not because of them.

So, vengeance. Vengeance is when I actually do something in revenge. As it says, vengeance is not mine. Wishing suffering on others who have made me suffer is not vengeance. It is not in my capacity to forgive the unforgivable. In the Prayer, it says "we forgive", which means someone else can take on that burden when it is impossible for me. 

It is only wishing for them what they have actually done to me. To not feel this way would make me an inhuman monster with no emotions. Are you saying I should repress my emotions for the benefit of someone else? That would make me even sicker than I already am.

They have made indigenous people suffer for generations. Why should they not suffer for generations? All of them are still living off of wealth stolen from the world. Every welfare payment is made out of the Bank of England, an "Inexhaustible Treasury" filled by the loot of the world. 

I know that another Agency will always do the Vengeance, according to the way that the Agency works. Call it God or Karma or what-have-you, everyone pays the price for their actions. By wishing suffering on those who have caused suffering, and death on those who have caused death, we are making them reach the point of resolution of their debts, which makes the world a happier place. 

If you accept your need for suffering as I have suffered, the quicker you will pay your price, and the sooner you will be happy. If you have not suffered as I have, it is very easy for you to preach forgiveness of debts. 

So your little sermon has had no effect at all. Nice try though!

OK, I didn't realize this included personal experience of yours in England, and I won't question your reality.  I'll leave it at that, because it appears that anything else I might say would simply offend you.  

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There's no requirement that the Left either support every departure from the EU or oppose every departure from the EU

No, there's not.  But I would hope there could be one opinion of the EU, since there's only the one EU.

I don't expect the Left to condemn everything banks do, nor endorse everything banks do, but don't they generally have an opinion of banks, independent of the time they got it right and that other time they got it wrong?

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Well, it might depend how you define the left, and how the various leftists see the EU.

I'm not at all trying to define the Left.

But they don't seem all that confused about their own existence when they voice their opinions about lots of other things outside of the EU.

I'm just hoping they can tell us about the EU in general -- not in the context of any one EU member, but in general.

Do they stand for the good things?  Do they fight for the bad things?  Again, it's the same EU, so it should be possible to say whether they're a force for good or a force for evil.  If they're a magical shape-shifter than a whole continent is fucked.

Fair enough.  But it does seem to add up to:

- Greece isn't crazy to want to stay in the EU.

- The UK isn't crazy to want to leave the EU.

Ken Burch wrote:

josh wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Brexit bad.

Grexit good.

Well yeah, since EU membership has brought(based on the brutal austerity demands so far)nothing but misery but Greece, and CAN bring nothing but misery for Greece, whereas the results have been far more mixed for the UK and EU membership there may have had some anti-racist and pro-immigrant results.

There's no requirement that the Left either support every departure from the EU or oppose every departure from the EU>

No, no requirement.  But if they want to fight the neo-liberal economic order, they would.

Fighting neoliberalism also means fighting against xenophobia and anti-immigrant bigotry.  Can you be sure it's even possible to do that outside of the EU?  They're really aren't any anti-bigotry, anti-xenophobia provisions in the UK system at present.   Hard to see that there'd be any chance of establishing any, but do you think that would be possible?

You mean countries aren’t capable of passing anti-discrimination laws on their own?  And neo-liberalism is an economic philosophy.

Mr. Magoo wrote:

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I was taken there against my will as a child

Does your desire for suffering and vengeance include your parents?

Now they are dead, my relationship with my parents is very good, thank you very much!

Syriza progressive?  You mean the party that lied and caved, and has introduced all sorts of neo-liberal legislation at the direction of the EU?  Why should anyone on the left take any advice from them.

Your second paragraph is apples and oranges.