Greyhound Canada To End

Look at a map of rural Saskatchewan. You will see the number of communities.

Wow! I figured it was 50-50. Saskatoon is about 250,000, Regina about 210,000. PA and Moose Jaw are 35k each. Estevan, Weyburn, Yorkton, SC, Lloyd Sk are about 10,000 each. NB is 15k. Dinky cities are about 20k total.

aproc 600,000 urban. 400,000 left over.

I guess you would have to define what urban is then. Some would consider places like Melville, Melfort, Kindersley, etc. As being urban. I would call them rural.

It is Stats Can's definition. Not sure what their criteria are.

No, I don't take it as that either.

And there's this:

https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=pedestrian+kill...

My family is from Spalding (between Melfort and Watson).  Growing up I spent my summers there.  Spalding had an ice rink/curling facility, school to grade 12, a hospital and about 4 elevators.  I think all of those are gone.  Between Spalding and Watson (7 miles as is the rule) there was Daphne whose elevator, post office and Bauman's service station (you may remember the 30' tire man) are all now gone. 

I used to to ride the Greyhound and it would stop at all the towns.  Many of those towns don't exist any more.

I totally agree that bus service is a necessity.  I just wonder if it is something we can leave to the private sector to solve.

No.

Even when STC existed there was still a corner of the province around the great sand hills that had no bus. And some communites south of Swift that were covered by a small private carrier. So it isn't just an ideological issue.

But some of it cannot be done at a profit. Nor should that be a condition.

(and again, not giving Greyhound a pass based on that, because they bailed on the main routes, after charging top dollar)

Simple.  My many uncles  farmed a section or so.  Now anything less than 10 sections isn't viable.  No grain elevators except in major hubs.

And now that the wheat board is gone you can't even get train cars to those elevators.

How do people get from Toronto to Vancouver to visit relatives?

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How do people get from Toronto to Vancouver to visit relatives?

Planes, trains and automobiles?

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but one thing it does do is reduce the likelihood that there is going to be a strong union to ensure safety (and they have played a role in advocacy since the STC shutdown.

Why would it make unionization unlikely?  It's not like all the Teamsters are living in the same city or working for the same employer.

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There is also the question of maintaining those busses, buying more. Buying parts.

Wouldn't that be financed by either the fares or subsidies or both?  Why would a co-op be unable to maintain their fleet, but a company could or a Crown corporation could?

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not one that stops at the municipal line and leaves someone in the cold in the middle of nowhere

I certainly wasn't suggesting that such co-ops would only operate within the boundaries of their own municipality.  If the co-ops felt a direct "express" run to Vancouver would be viable, they could go for it.  Why not?

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Maybe it is because it sound so much like those libertarian proposals that would give families a pocket of cash for healthcare and education, and if they run out, too bad.

Healthcare is, by it's nature, very unpredictable.  You might go 45 years never needing to be in hospital, then suddenly very much need to be in hospital (that's me).

But if it's horrible for the government to (say) give families money for childcare to spend as they need, why would it also be horrible (in a different way) for the government to give "Bureaucrat Approved (tm)" food vouchers, or house social assistance recipients in Government Hotels?

I'm just suggesting that communities and regions might know better than Ottawa what they need, transportation-wise.

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Plus there is way too much duplication of service, and it seems really inconvenient for anyone going, say, from Saskatoon to Regina to change busses 10 times.

I'm not sure why these proposed co-ops would need to duplicate service.  They would not be prohibited from talking to each other, and strategizing together.  In fact, that's kind of what I was getting at with my suggestion #3.  Of course they would want to co-ordinate their efforts.

As to change-overs, again I'm kind of assuming that these carriers would not solely be doing short "milk runs".

And for the record, I'm not suggesting that this "napkin" idea be the sole solution to all the problems.  I was thinking primarily of the remote or rural communities.  Perhaps the governments could find a similar solution for larger cities.

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And small locally-run operations without much oversight often do go sideways.

Well, OK.  Sounds like only Ottawa can get things done.

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But who knows... some here might love your idea.

No worries if not.  It was just a thought.  And IMHO a better business plan than "Ottawa commits to pouring as much money down a hole as needed to keep everyone happy".  But I live in Toronto, so I don't really have a dog in the race.

so you want to rebuild the wheatboard progressive after Harper gave it to the Saudis?

Plus they did that progressive, 100 years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_pools_in_Canada

And we already have a thread where we are discussing this, so let's not drift it in here.

You know Magoo, despite being in Toronto I think you have the same dog in this race as you do in every other thread - that of fielding repetitive arguments about absolutely everything, even stuff we have already talked about.

We had a viable provincial carrier here in Saskatchewan which provided good service on a modest subsidy. And it was taking steps to deal with declining numbers by buying smaller buses. That isn't throwing money down a hole.

VIAL Rail isn't throwing money down a hole either. Nor are smaller local bus companies which are managing to survive. And B.C. is starting up its own service in the north of the province.

Greyhound actually has a rocky history and poor relations with governments out here. I hope this last stunt is the last we have to deal with them.

Was that not clear? Because repeating this stuff is kind of tiring.

I think this is really cute...

During the Ontario election campaign, the Liberals promis

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4595490

The Liberal government wanted to subsidize Go Transit rides to $3.00 for people under a plan.

and...

"The province recently announced its committing some $4 billion to transit projects in the city, matching federal infrastructure funding."

 Oh I see,  if it is Toronto receiving federal and provincial subsidies  for public transit that is a good thing, and all the people in rural Canada who pay their income taxes are to subsidize the urban  centres and do without themselves. And when it comes to government subsidies for Toronto it's not an issue but it is for people living in rural Canada who desperately need help.

But 4 billion dollars matching the Federal Governmentd 4 billion dollars. That's 8 billion dollars. Rural Canada = fuck all!

quizzical wrote:

so you want to rebuild the wheatboard progressive after Harper gave it to the Saudis?

Well if pulling it out must have been a major cause of these rural economic catastrophes, you may very well be right. If we are going to pay to get oil to market, there is no reason why we can't do that for food.

Also in this province STC was used for the interlibrary loan service, shipping medical tests, and as I mentioned before, retail goods like car parts. By bus it could be there the same day. I could put something on the bus in the morning and have it there at noon. Canada Post takes two days.

We are quite willing to subsidize other areas of the economy as the discussion above notes. Helping farmers with transportation would be similar to behaviour in other countries. 

I could send percels to Calgary by bus and it was ready for pick up the very next day and the rate was much cheaper by bus

No worries. I don't see it as a federal problem though, unless they want to improve the train. All of these things - highways, health, municipal affairs - are provincial. Not that some infrastructure funding wouldn't be appreciated, but seems to me like a problem Ottawa would mess up. It really is something better done provincially, as Saskatchewan did, and as B.C. is doing again.

Besides, there is just one road connecting us to the rest of the country, and even that is cut sometimes.

Putting Public Ownership Back on the Table

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The crux of the matter, however, goes beyond the Greyhound news. Indeed, this episode shows that, when it comes to essential services, Canadians cannot depend on the private sector to provide them. This issue along with many others has re-ignited the debate around the role of public ownership in a democratic society. A society in which private capital is predominate cannot be just and democratic. The only solution is to assert democratic priorities over the organization of the economy.

Of course, the process of transitioning to a democratic social order is a long-term one, but it must be started now. Indeed, Andrea Horwath and the Ontario NDP made the reversal of privatization and contracting out a key part of their 2018 platform, and various unions, including the Ontario Public Service Employees Union (OPSEU), have launched extensive campaigns noting the value of public services. But more must be done, and from my perspective, the Federal NDP has a real opportunity to emphasize public ownership in the run up to the 2019 federal election.

While this could be tackled from a variety of directions, here are just three which could help working Canadians in their daily lives, and which are in federally-regulated industries.

1. A national public transit strategy

Clearly, Greyhound’s withdrawal from western Canada has sparked a discussion of how a lack of public transit is not merely an inconvenience to those in smaller and isolated communities, but a matter of basic public health and safety, especially as it pertains to marginalized populations, particularly indigenous women, who are at greatest risk of violence when they lack access to safe transit options.

2. Postal banking

There are many shortcomings within Canada’s financial system as it applies to consumer banking. Not only do the big banks rake in exorbitant profits off Canadians in an oligopolistic framework, but many marginalized and isolated communities lack reliable banking services, either because there are no banking outlets in their communities, because internet infrastructure is spotty, or because they face other systemic barriers. Finally, payday loan companies are a scourge, preying on the most vulnerable who, having no other access to reasonably-priced credit, are forced to take loans at rates which are in essence legalized loan-sharking.

3. A pubic telecommunications corporation

Finally, and perhaps most ambitiously, Canada needs a federal crown corporation to offer a wide range of telecommunication services, especially pertaining to broadband internet and cellular phones. While there is ostensibly competition in the Canadian telecommunications scene, the reality is that Canadian consumers pay high rates for these services, often for lower quality, especially when compared to other wealthy nations, but sometimes even developing countries. And while there are some publically-owned telecom companies like SaskTel, most communities are at the whim of private corporations.

Just imagine the infrastructure needed for competition. Buildings, fleets of buses, staff, partnership arrangements.  Now try and figure out how two competing lines would function.