Feminist antiviolence organization has publicly stated that it has caused harm to sex workers

OK I'm new to discussing this issue.

Did some searches and this memorial I believe is the only kind of in Canada. Possibly the world? 

Here's a related link I found.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/safer-city-for-sex-...

But the crux of the problem (where the "harm" was) is that WAVAW services were being denied (I assume, anyway) If it is the not "supporting individuals and also calling for the abolition of their profession" I disagree. Drug harm reduction, after all involves supporting people suffering addiction, but the ultimate goal is ideally to get them off the drugs.

For that matter, most public policies regarding abusive situations don't just leave the decision in the hands of the victim, even if they don't see the abuse.

But assuming it is the former, that is distinct from the abolition/harm reduction split.

As for freedom arguments, there are also some people who for various reasons consent to working below the minimum wage, or in high-risk professions like asbestos mining.

There are some who trot out the "right to work" arguments in those cases as well, but far more of us see it for what it is in those cases. And it in no way invalidates calls for a minimum wage, and the shutdown of the asbestos industry.

As for criticism of prostitution, I am less interested in the moralistic view as I am in the position of some feminists - that it is by definition abuse of women, and not work at all.

Personally I don't agree with that perspective. But as a theory I consider it completely valid, and an important part of how society deals with prostitution, because some of the prostitution industry involves people being compelled to do work they would ordinarily not, and being put in dangerous situations.

So I think it is a bit odd that Vancouver Rape Relief would be singled out in an article that really isn't about them. Their position on this and other issues isn't popular. Agree or disagree, I just don't see it as helpful.

Why should I be careful?

Police do it all the time. For that matter so do agencies for the protection of  vulnerable people. There are plenty of positions where if abuse is disclosed or seriously suspected you are legally required to report it without consent from the victim.

True. It doesn't mean that the principle of not leaving issues of assault and abuse to the victims is not important. In some cases in fact, it is impossible to do so.

But to back up a bit to the actual point, support for the abolition of prostitution and respecting individual autonomy are not mutually exclusive. The statement in that article is not entirely correct.

point taken on forum susan sorry i didn't look

@susan davis

Thanks for your comment! This issue is now much easier to understand. Your 1st person explanation brings everyone reading this thread right there!

so smith w. i know you support sex workers rights and it's appreciated, frankly i disagree with you on the VRR issue ....

opinions are one thing, but promoting lies as facts and undermining the safety of PEOPLE...is not having an opinion. it is forcing your ideology on others. VRR have a loud and priviledged voice (they have core funding which NO sex worker organization has - our tax dollars pay for them to keep their doors open and in turn promote hatred of sex workers around the world) and play into people's fears about sex work helping them raise even more money and to promote their lies as facts on the international stage.

Having an opinion is different than trying to influence policy and law. people believe them, they have credibility because they have used all the sex workers they meet through the rape crisis line and their trauma to bolster their "opinion" , cherry picking stories to make it as horrible as possible and promote their ideology amongst the mainstream community all the while sharing stolen stories as if they are facts....have you not seen this before...big tobacco, oil companies, fire retardent fabric which causes cancer....

let me ask you, would it be ok for me to have an opinion that young black males are dangerous and there fore should be police chekced more often just in case they maybe doing something wrong? or how about an "opinion" that LGTBQ2 people are "sick somehow" and would not be good parents? or that all muslims are terrorists?

so why is it that people throw all those equality arguements out the window when it comes to sex work? facts are facts. we know the truth about what will support sex worker safety, it's been studied to death. any legitimate and ethical research draws the same conclusion, decriminalize sex work now.

these people are so married to their "opinion", so invested in their ideology...that facts don't matter, no matter who gets hurt.

so let's be clear...their "opinion" is promoted and accepted as fact as they are the loudest most priviledged voice...those opinions with no basis in reality are in turn used to further criminalize the sex working community...then...people die....

there is a serious problem with their opinion and no...i don't feel they have the right to promote hatred of sex workers...just as i don't think people have a right to promote hatred of muslims, LGTBQ2 folks or any other easily identifiable group...

we are PEOPLE, not voiceless victims and our stories and experiences are not for them to use to further an ideological goal of the abolition of prostitution. VRR are NOT representing sex workers or victims, they represent themselves and their insane morality. that is why VRR are mentioned. because they should do the same as WAVAW and admit they are wrong. the Georgia Straight are sex worker friendly and support our rights. so of course they would call out one of the largest obstacles to our emancipation. in fact they refuse to print the lies promoted as fact in the "opinions" of VRR and it's supporters. if more journalists would do their damn jobs and actually fact check this shit, we wouldn't have the problems we do in fighting for our rights. people would understand what needs to be done. instead we have to fight to be heard and fight to unpack all the lies people believe as fact as a result of their never ending attacks. we should be able to have an adult conversation in canada but instead all the hand wringing grand mothers cry out..."what about the children!"

sorry but this type of opinion is insidious. people believe them even though they are really only expressing an opinion....not fact. even to this day when i ask people what the average age of entry into prostitution is people say 12-14.....a direct result of the thing i am trying to describe....

it says clearly in the letter from wavaw what changed their minds....the voices of sex workers. it is "insane morality"....VRR are the loudest...it is NOT because they are a women's group....i understand you are on the prairie and in the land of Joy Smith et al.....but here in Vancouver, their group is the single loudest and most oppressive org against sex work. they are quoted in every article, they can afford to go to every politician....they are provincially funded and as such people believe their vitriol....

they were singled out because they earned it.

we have a strong relationship with the police here and so the law is not the issue.

however, in neighbouring cities...Vancouver is part of a string of cities...the RCMP are in charge and there ARE real issues there...The richmond and burnaby RCMP are coming around though and there is some effort to try to balance enforcement across the lower mainland as was recommended in the Foresaken Report - the Missing Women's Inquiry here....which also recommended adoption of the entire living in community report - www.livingincommunity.ca - which also - as all ethical research and work does - recommends decriminalization.

please try to understand, what it is like to be fighting for the lives of members of your community only to have a women's group.....counter everything you say and dominate the conversation...before we achieved defacto decrim here and in the height of our fight...when i was speaking publically and in the news alot i became their target...they would come to events where i was speaking and attack me...yelling at me, filming, advancing towards the stage...it was threatening and brutal...i developed chest pains and an involuntary twitch in my face...permanent stress injuries...caused by a women's group....their total refusal to hear anything other than their prescribed rhetoric was an extreme barrier...

i know you said you are out and maybe you will never understand how violent some of the groups are but believe me when i say, they do not care about sex workers. if they did they would listen to us and at least acknowledge that we have a right to a voice in this discussion instead of berating, belittling and degrading us when we try to fight for our rights.

so, no one wants to decriminalize pimps and exploiters. this is the way abolitionists always frame the discussion. sex workers are labled as the "pimp lobby" and in support of exploiting children....stripping us of our voice and casting us as complacent in the harm of children...

bullshit....

in Vancouver under defacto decrim, several exploiters have been arrested and prosecuted including a VPD officer...the police have more resources as they are no longer engaged in blanket actions against the sex industry and so can work to route out the actual exploiters....not all brothel keepers are exploiters. many provide healthy and safe work spaces for people and are former workers themselves...many are women....

there lots of laws against human trafficking, exploitation, sexual assault, unlawful confinement sexual interference....the VPD used these laws instead of prostitution laws....because is an underage person who was exploited by traffickers really a prostitute? no....and they do not deserve that lable which will follow them their whole lives....

i can never understand why abolitionists always try to say sex workers want to decriminalize pimps, we do not....we never have...but y'all are doing a great job confusing everyone about what decriminalization would actually look like and of course about what sex workers are actually saying...using our language saying you support decriminalization when you don't....

but hey, you are entitled to your"opinion" about what we want...even though we have told you over and over and over and over and over and over ....you refuse to listen and instead provide the mainstream community with your priviledged "opinion" about what we want and claim to know better than we do about what we want.....

the nordic mess.....does not decriminalize sex workers.....it recriminalizes us and in fact deepens the criminalization further than it was before....

no sex workers in parks...no sex workers in schools....no sex workers in churches.....in fact no sex workers NEAR schools, or near churches or even near parks....

if 70% of sex workers are single parents as one study suggests....it's illegal for them to take a child to school or to the park and obviously sex workers are outside of god's love as we are not allowed to worship either....going to church? ILLEGAL!!!

you say you support the decriminalization of sex workers....but do you?

or are you blinded by your own rhetoric and truely believe that i....we ...support the decriminalzation of child exploitation.....? 

it's unfair and untrue and you know it deep down....we want human and labour rights...we deserve the protections other canadian workers enjoy...we deserve to be given accurate info about our heath and safety and to have safe places to work....

we DO NOT want the decriminalization of child exploiters or human traffickers....we are NOT the pimp lobby.....and you know this....even if you try to pretend otherwise

I am not a privileged person; in many ways, I've lived a hard life. No other reason for us to converse. If I use outdated language about the life, it is because it is what I heard at an age where I was of interest to pimps. I'm over 50 now.

I apologise for posting in your forum; I thought I was posting in the feminist forum.

because we had legalization....it didn't work....many people died.....

and fundamentally we do not need two sets of laws to protect people...one set of laws for when a lawyer for example is raped, unlawfully confined or human trafficked.... and the other for when a sex worker is raped, unlawfully confined or human trafficked....

a child exploited for sex is not a prostitute or a criminal....those laws seperate crimes seen as "prostitution related" from crimes against non prostitution related persons....

seperating crimes against sex workers as different from crimes against non sex workers means that people view violence against sex workers as different or of less importance...ever heard the saying "truely innocent victim"?

there are lots of laws to protect all people in canada, we do not need these 2 sets of laws.

many of the provivions within PCEPA - canada's new prostitution laws directly segregate sex workers from the rest of society...

no sex workers in or near parks, no sex workers in or near schools, no sex workers in or near churches....imagine if the law read.....no (insert visible minority here - aborigionals, muslims, jews, use your imagination) allowed....

we are people, we are part of society and we contribute alot all the while being classified as second class, not worthy of protection, different, less......"them" as we are commonly refered to....

we need to be decriminalized so we can begin to establish occupational health and safety and organize collectively for our wages and working conditions....until we are decriminalized our focus has to be on our "outcast criminal" status and we cannot work to improve our over all quality of life and safety....

legalization means criminal code provisions still on the books and which can be pulled out at any time to be used against us. living in fear of arrest or loosing our income is not freedom....

the consensual sex work deniers would have you believe that we are not capable of defining safety for ourselves or working to prevent exploitation in our industry without police oversight and threat of prison....that we are of such a diminished capacity that we cannot be trusted to prevent youth exploitation for example and need to be governed by the criminal code as criminals...

it's the stigma....people cannot get past sex workers as criminals and believe all the rhetoric spouted by those who hate us and deny that our clients need us and our services...

Thanks for the indepth reply Susan. It's interesting to read about. I wouldn't consider myself an ally because I don't know anything about this stuff (plus I'm an evil straight white mostly conservative male) but as far as I'm concerned a woman's body is hers to do whatever she wants with it including selling sex. I agree there shouldn't be two sets of rules and it seems like the major issue people have with sex work is their own moral beliefs?

A good friend of mine is (or was, we don't discuss it) a sex worker (escort?) and she's said she's made over $2000 in a day and it wasn't BS.  I'm just guessing but I think maybe part of the governments problem is that these men, women and trans people are having a lot of money pass through their hands and the government isn't able to tax it.  Because we know they'll tax anything, including taxing other taxes. I want to guess that's why the porn industry is allowed to do what it does simply because it's taxed and the government get's their cut.

That said I think what Smiths talking about could make sense too, as far as regulations and stuff goes. I really just don't know enough to make an informed opinion though.

For what it's work I hope it becomes decriminalized if that's whats safest and best for your friends and peers.

susan davis wrote

yes municipal business licensing and OHS standards on a provincial health level...we have that in vancouver....i will say in regina...the police go to an unlicensed escorts door, detain her and then take to be forcibly licensed.....not cool....this should be the job of business licensing staff and health inspectors....not police....make sense? nobody is asking for special treatment, just equal treament. do the police go to your house if the suspect you may have installed a toilette without a permit?

Also very embarrassing having the police at your door. Having someone come to your door wearing a bullet proof vest with a sidearm/gun is to intimidate, nothing more than thugery.

Since I'm a plumber, I'll use my services as an example. I have to claim my income and also have to charge HST (if I owned my own company) From my limited knowledge/ignorance, I suspect you would welcome paying taxes and charging HST etc etc as long as there was an actual provincial body that treated sex trade workers as an bonofied trade.

Please your thoughts, your a good poster!

ok smith w but that is my point....you are saying regulation, i am saying regulation....it's the same thing we are saying and it's called decriminalization....not legalization....regulation via municipal by-laws and provincial health regulations is not under the criminal code and therefore is not criminalized and is decrim....

as far as parks and schools...in one of my earlier posts in this thread...if 70% of sex workers are single parents...how do suggest they drop their kids off at school? or attend parent teacher meetings? also how do sex working parents take their children to the park...or to church? this is my point...a brothel is not a sex worker...a brothel is a business and is covered in vancouver by location restrictions, opening time restrictions (not 24hrs) and a development permit which allows for problem businesses to be dealt with via by-law infraction and potential license withdrawl...

but the criminal code of canada says - no sex workers near schools, churchs, parks,etc....

what if i want to go to the park to have a picnic...my life is not one long sexual act in which everything i do is sex related and thus i leave a stream of used condoms where ever i go....how do you know the condoms are from sex workers anyway? what if it is young people having sex because they have nowhere else to go? or closeted gay men who have nowhere else to go? why are condoms always blamed on sex workers? which...i have never actually worn a condom so i really don't understand why we are blamed....?

the police have proven over and over to not be responsible enough to regulate brothels. they are tuned to a different station - the war on crime  - by letting police regulate the "criminal sex worker", you make sex work criminalized....can you understand that? if by-law officers and the normal processes for business licenses were used, it would be regulated but decriminalized.....

@WWWTT so yes, we consider it police violence when they use these intimidation tactics and it undermines sex worker trust in police and their willingness to report violence should they experience it...

in terms of taxes... we DO pay tax....if you want to have a credit rating and get a mortage, car loan etc...you must have a declared income.  so, most sex workers do pay taxes and GST/HST as our business is classifed as a service....in terms of benefiting from the tax dollars we contribute, you are right...we do not enjoy the same protections as other citizens and i find that to be really unfair...we are expected to pay but enjoy only some(clean water for example)...not all of the benefits....

especially brothel operators who not only pay federal and provincial income taxes but also significant property tax within cities.....so it is a crazy situation of double speak and double standard which plagues our movement and which is confused ultimately by outsiders trying to impose their ideology/ morality on us...

Quote:

but the criminal code of canada says - no sex workers near schools, churchs, parks,etc....

Does the government differentiate between a sex worker doing sex work, and a sex worker shopping for groceries?

Quote:

Same goes for parks. Sorry, but I have lived in places where I didn't want my kids to play because of the presence of used condoms and worse biohazardous material. But even without that particular concern, no one gets to just set up shop in a park.

To be fair, though, when the police eventually crack down on park sex, people freak out.  What are they freaking out about? 

Smith  W wrote

I wouldn't be able to set my retail business up next to a school either because of zoning. As for not having a brothel there either I think it is a good idea, and I expect most legitimate businesspeople would agree.

Devil's in the details. The zoning where I live in Brampton and in many residential municipalities in Ontario actually allow a small business to be operated from your home. 10-15% of your home can be used for this small business. Now I'm not exactly sure of all the restrictions/limitations, but it sounds like to me that someone in the trade that was on their own could legitamitely work out of their own home.

I'm still new to discussing this issue, but I'm going to throw this out there. I believe many humans have this awkward thing about sex, sexuality and sexism. These are all three different things, but for some reason the S E X letters together at the beginning of each word throws a lot of people off. The lack of proper education/information and the lack of respect towards people is something that needs to change.

@smith w.....i see, you need proof of bias against sex workers...you need proof that police cannot be trusted to enforce in a way that is calm and reflects the protection of all people...you need proof that the municipal, provincial and federal government will treat sex workers unfairly....

i am not sure where to to begin smith w.....

why is it always, show me the proof....otherwise it isn't happening....as if sex workers report hate crimes or other exclusionist shitte....

how do you expect me to quantify these things....? seriously...you think there is some study? or a news article...? nada ...diddly...squat.....

and of course why would you believe me...that this could be possible? and what about me asking about the parks and why sex workers are always blamed...? and creating safe work spaces....?

no you are focused on what you perceive as an impact you experience...your issues...your not liking sex work...or rather condoms...in your neighbourhood?

no comment about what i haveproposed and what has worked in vancouver...only demands for proof....ughhhhh....

i know you support decrim...but how, where...? not in your backyard i guess...

there is no easy fix...no law that will change things...no pill for bias....so people...if they care ..must commit to the hard work....TALKING ...to each other...

fair enough, if operators like it than i guess that's ok... we agree on regulations smith w..... we just don't agree on what kind...the criminal code is not the way to bring OHS and labor rights to the sex industry...federal regulations under the umbrella of health....sure....muncipal licensing for businesses...of course...

i wonder how other industries would handle being regulated by the criminal code and police...?

like the food industry...

you can make food but you may not advertise it or promote it and if you do the person who sold you the advertising space will be arrested and face possible jail time..

you refrigerators must mantain temperature below 3.3 Celcius and when the police come to check them if they are not at or below this, you could be arrested and face jail time...

all employees must wash their hands before and after handling raw meat products and if found to not be in compliance, the employee and employer could both face arrest and possible jail time

i am trying to convey to you that even though one brothel operator says it makes her job easier, the police are not the right people to ask to enforce labour regulations or industry health standards...

to say that it is working is a cop out, regina has not done the hard work and engaged with sex workers to see what they feel would best support their safety and the current approach of forced licensing via being detained by police is like using a sledge hammer to break an egg....

do you uderstand what i mean? i am not saying that what we are doing in vancouver is perfect or that it would work for every community...but regina should not make the mistake of simply doing what non sex working police and bureaucrats think will work...when you exclude critical people from decisions on these issues, you inevitably will see cracks emerge and people will fall through them...

we will have to agree to disagree smith w..... being a doctor is not a criminal offence.... and sex workers are people...not a card game or a gun or a bottle of booze...this is a fundamental difference...and saying that the sex industry is rife with abuse so needs criminal code provisions is crazy....the criminal code is very much a reason for the abuse....so says the supreme court...not me...

There was just a teacher charged for criminal negligence in your province.  The laws might not be applied as often or in the same way, but they are there.

Last time I had to give a warning that any abuse mentioned to me would have to be reported I was aware of the possible criminal consequences. So the criminal code does play a role in many of our jobs.

Really, the main way that prostitution is distinct is that it is still illegal to pay for it, and that seems to be something that is on its way out.

But sure, most of the nuts and bolts of regulation are municipal and provincial. At least here in Saskatoon they are by-law and zoning matters.