I think the Liberals' electoral prospects in the ridings that house the relevant industries might provide more of a clue.
More of a clue, but less of a drama. Isn't it way more juicy to imagine that Trudeau is doing the bidding of his Zionist masters?
As well as the serious money involved, Trudeau is hyper-sensitive to the foreign policy direction of both USA and Israel. As these are both at present supportive of MbS, the status quo and continued arms sales to the Saudi regime, my sense is that Trudeau won't take any actions perceived to be contrary.
"One aspect to the affair is the US domestic issue. The White House is increasingly perceived - as the Washington Post implies - as being engaged in a 'soft' cover-up of a cover-up. That is to say, the White House is being viewed as so set on keeping MbS in position as lynchpin to Trump's entire Middle East strategy that the White House and Mr Bolton will try to turn a Nelsonian 'blind eye' or a 'selective ear' - to audio evidence provided by the Turkish government that seems to implicate MbS...(By-the-by, Prime Minister Netanyahu has based his platform too, on a similarly narrow foundation.)"
The Iranian Albatross the US Has Hung Around Its Own Neck
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/11/19/iranian-albatross-us-h...
The US has "slammed the brakes on" a United Nations Security Council resolution calling for a limited ceasefire and increased humanitarian aid in Yemen over concerns about angering Saudi Arabia, two sources tell CNN.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/26/politics/us-slows-yemen-resolution/index.html
"I get along great with all of them; they buy apartments from me," Trump said. "They spend $40 million, $50 million. Am I supposed to dislike them? I like them very much!"
Our Considered Silence on Saudi Arabia is No Better Than Trump's Brazen Acquiescence
"Here we are selling arms to a medieval regime that is using them to kill innocents indiscriminately in Yemen...At the end of the day, if we stand for anything, we have only one choice: Cancel the contract..."
Canada's Saudi Weapons Sales a Moral Race To the Bottom - by Matthew Behrens
"We've known about the deal for years but there has yet to be an organized on the ground campaign to confront those who benefit most from it What holds us back?"
Canada sanctions 17 Saudis linked to Khashoggi killing
All of the individuals on the list were already in jail, making it impossible for them to travel to Canada anyway.
The government release did not indicate exactly what, if any, Canadian assets are held by these individuals.
The U.S. froze any American assets of the same individuals on Nov.15.
The Nazi's granddaughter is still taking her orders from Trump, only 2 weeks later.
When asked whether she believed bin Salman was involved, she replied:
"We believe that in naming people ... it's very important to gather all the facts," she said. "It's very important to act and to speak only on the basis of real certainty. These are not steps that we take lightly."
By "facts", she means whatever the Saudi regime says. They blame 17 people, we sanction them.
Concern Grows For UBC Grad After Report Saudi Arabia Tortured Activists
https://twitter.com/CJPME/status/1067870843852779521
"UBC graduate and activist Loujain Al Hathloul has been detained in Saudi Arabia where the conditions of detention are monstrous. Canada and other Western countries are putting business ahead of human rights by continuing to trade arms with Saudi Arabia!"
Best of friends.
https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1068527129883742208
PUTIN: Bone sawwwwwwww waddup
MBS: Humbled!!!! You were having jouralists killed while I was in school! Kinda can't believe this is happening bro.
https://twitter.com/attackerman/status/1068529928222752768
Best of friends.
Possibly Putin was just following in the footsteps of Barack Obama?
[youtube]nDOCpvMpha8[/youtube]
[youtube]LEUif1--r38[/youtube]
Or maybe, instead of these sensationalist misleading images, we could look at the actions and the policy of the U.S. state. Please let me know how the U.S. of Obama dealt with Russia and Saudi Arabia differently from the U.S. of Trump.
The blood on the bone saw has barely dried. And what's "misleading" about the images?
Experts Say There's Proof That Canadian-Made Weapons are Being Used for Saudi War in Yemen
https://www.nationalobserver.com/2018/11/30/news/experts-say-theres-proo...
"...This war wouldn't be possible without Canada and others arming them. Western countries are literally holding their hand while they wage war."
The blood on the bone saw has barely dried. And what's "misleading" about the images?
Smiles and handshakes are s.o.p at summits, and don't neccesarily indicate any particular degree of affection or affinity between the leaders in question.
That said, there was something a little over-the-top about that high-five between Putin and MBS, especially given that most democratic leaders these days are trying to create an appearance of distance between themselves and the prince. It's almost as if Putin thought it in his interest to be publically seen as bucking the trend.
My understanding is that Russia benefits if the price of oil goes up, and of course the Saudis have as of late been making some noise about reducing the supply. That would be my best guess about why Putin might be sending some bromantic vibes the prince's way.
It's all about the money, what else? That's capitalism. And Russia is being starved of international capital and investment by western sanctions.
Saudi Arabia Mulls Investments in Russia Petrochemical Plant
"Saudi Arabia's state-run Saudi Aramco oil giant and Sebic, a diversified chemicals producer wants to invest in building aa petrochemical plant in Russia, the kingdom's energy minister said Wednesday." See also, Saudi Arabia, Russia to extend agreement on preserving oil market stability."
But Canada's 15 b contract with Saudi to supply arms vastly exceeds any present or contemplated investment by Saudi in Russia. The US still holds ultimate sway over the Saudi monarchy and can repel any and all serious interlopers or challengers including Russia.
Full disclosure: I don't care that much about Khashoggi. I'm more concerned about the countless Saudis and Yemenis and other victims of the ruling clique's medieval murderous torture and aggression. That's why I opened this thread years ago - to advocate for Canada and other countries to boycott this rogue regime, cancel arms deals, take a stand in support of peace and human rights. Both the U.S. and Canada of course have done nothing of the sort. That's what should concern you and me, josh - not some jokey image of Putin and MBS.The blood on the bone saw has barely dried.
And what's "misleading" about the images?
Your "best friends" comment. Very funny. But it misleads the reader into thinking there's some connection between Putin and MBS which is different in degree and quality from the slavish support MBS gets from your president(s) and our Nazi's granddaughter. That's misleading, verging on irresponsible. Sorry for the harsh language, because I know you and I are on the same side. But our duty is to stop our governments from being accomplices in crimes against humanity. The Russian people will have to deal with Putin.
there was movement by the US today on stopping arms deal i think.
why not here?
You don’t care that much about Khashoggi? That’s your right. I do.
@ Unionist #365
Odd reason? Why advocate for Canada to not deal with the Saudia Arabia regime when the Canadian version of Imperialism has a much darker history than the Saudi?
I get where you’re coming from, but I believe you’re misguided if you believe that Canada can ever be any kind of role model while awkwardly trying to hold the closet door shut at the same time so no one sees the skeletons coming out
WWTT I am not sure what you think Unionist meant by his post but whatever it is you thought he meant has got you barking up the wrong tree.
@ Unionist #365
Odd reason? Why advocate for Canada to not deal with the Saudia Arabia regime when the Canadian version of Imperialism has a much darker history than the Saudi?
I also advocate for Canada not oppressing its own people, not committing foreign aggression, joining the BDS movement... If that seems like support for Canada as a role model to you, then sit back and think again.
Do you or do you not support Canada cancelling its arms deals with Saudi Arabia? I'd appreciate a "yes" or "no". Or something else.
You don’t care that much about Khashoggi? That’s your right. I do.
And that of course is your right. I consider the whole ugly episode to be a massive clickbait diversion from what progressive folks in Canada, the U.S., and elsewhere should be concerned about when it comes to Saudi Arabia. If it turns out (for example) that it was actually "rogue elements" that killed him, not ordered by MBS - imagine the damage that will do to legitimate efforts to isolate and condemn this bloodsoaked regime.
There are no more "rogue elements" in Saudi Arabia than there are in North Korea. Under a totalitarian regime, anyone (with the power to do anything besides huddle and whisper in a basement) who hasn't been executed is operating with approval, if not direct orders, from dear leader.
Now, is it perverse that one Washington Post reporter gets more international outrage than tens of thousands of Yemenis and the entirety of Saudi Arabia's slave and female population? Of course it is. But if this is what it takes to turn the global eye on the ugliest alliance since Molotov met Ribbentrop, so be it.
There are no more "rogue elements" in Saudi Arabia than there are in North Korea. Under a totalitarian regime, anyone (with the power to do anything besides huddle and whisper in a basement) who hasn't been executed is operating with approval, if not direct orders, from dear leader.
And, even in a non-totalitarian nation, if a bunch of guys can get into one of their country's foreign-embassies and kill someone without having the embassy staff try to stop them or notify any authorities, we can assume that they are operating with the consent of their own state, even if the top guy has been shielded from knowing the specific details of the endeavour.
So let's pretend that tomorrow, irrefutable proof emerges that MBS ordered the murder of Khashoggi. You know - the way Obama and Hillary ordered the murders and drone assassinations of foreign nationals.
Explain to me in general terms how that will help cancel Canada's $15 billion armoured vehicle sale to Saudi Arabia? Or how it might impact on the love between the U.S. and the Saudi regime, their support for Israel, their warmongering against Iran, the slaughter of the Yemeni people, murderous Saudi repression of its own people, or Saudi financing of terrorism in the region?
See, Freeland (the Nazi's granddaughter) has announced sanctions on exactly the people that the Saudis have imprisoned. So she doesn't need to do anything else. If MBS is irrefutably implicated? She can sanction him too. Not allow him to come to Canada. Seize his Canadian assets. But stop propping up the Saudi regime? That will never happen, short of popular and international mobilization.
That's what I mean by a diversion. It's not making people conscious of anything, cco, except that one guy might be a murderer. It doesn't change anything.
Unionist wrote:
Explain to me in general terms how that will help cancel Canada's $15 billion armoured vehicle sale to Saudi Arabia?
Well, we could reverse this. What would you do to bring about the "popular and international mobilization" that you think would be so much more effective than the Khashoggi histrionics at advancing change in Saudi Arabia? And if you think "Keep telling everyone how awful the regime in general is" would be the solution, well, I gotta say, that doesn't really seem to be working so far.
@ Unionist #365
Odd reason? Why advocate for Canada to not deal with the Saudia Arabia regime when the Canadian version of Imperialism has a much darker history than the Saudi?
I also advocate for Canada not oppressing its own people, not committing foreign aggression, joining the BDS movement... If that seems like support for Canada as a role model to you, then sit back and think again.
Do you or do you not support Canada cancelling its arms deals with Saudi Arabia? I'd appreciate a "yes" or "no". Or something else.
Cancelling the arms deal, yes of course! I am completely against weapons used beyond self defences. Not just Saudia Arabia but Canada and everyone else.
As far as the rest of your comment goes, then ya, maybe I did miss read into your comment.
I’m under the belief that Canada, with its charter, and whatever government the corporate masters wish, will always be a fraud.
What would you do to bring about the "popular and international mobilization" that you think would be so much more effective than the Khashoggi histrionics at advancing change in Saudi Arabia?
1. Our duty is to change the situation in Canada.
2. Stop talking about Khashoggi - now.
3. Launch petitions, demonstrations, letters to sitting MPs and candidates and parties asking where they stand on Saudi crimes and urging them to take the right stand.
And if you think "Keep telling everyone how awful the regime in general is" would be the solution, well, I gotta say, that doesn't really seem to be working so far.
When the Nazi's granddaughter sanctions the very people that MBS blames for the murder, and in practice pretends that the only thing the Saudis have done wrong is murdering some irrelevant journalist, and we don't expose her for actually propping up the Saudi murderers and profiting from their crimes, then I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say "doesn't really seem to be working so far". Let's try something different - viz. what I'm proposing - then if that fails, you can say "I told you so". Right now, your cynicism is premature.
Launch petitions, demonstrations, letters to sitting MPs and candidates and parties asking where they stand on Saudi crimes and urging them to take the right stand.
The issue of the arms-contracts came up in the 2015 election, and all three of the nation-wide party leaders(not sure about the BQ) endorsed the sales. And the vast majority of the votes went to those parties.
So, if most people didn't care in 2015, who are you now imagining is going to start signing petitions, attending demonstrations, and writing to their MPs, on anything approaching a mass scale?
Most Canadians Oppose Arms Deals With Saudi Arabia, Poll Finds
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/most-canadians-oppose-arms...
"...A solid majority of Canadians object to selling combat vehicles to Saudi Arabia...Pollster Nik Nanos said it's clear most Canadians give a thumbs down to selling arms to Saudi Arabia, a country that regularly ranks among the worst of the worst on human rights..."
The 64% against was recorded in 2017 and has grown appreciably since.
But how many of those Canadians are willing to change their vote over the issue?
Don't know nor care. Simply refuting your contention made above.
My contention that people don't care about arms sales to the KSA? If they don't care enough to vote for parties that promise to stop those sales, then I don't think they can really be said to care, in any meaningful way.
I mean, isn't that how we would analyze it on an individual level? If I tell you that my brother Bill in BC really cares about stopping pipelines going through his province, but that he's gonna vote for the BC Liberals because he likes their fiscal policy, are you gonna agree with my claim that he's anti-pipeline?
Don't know nor care. Simply refuting your contention made above.
Thanks for that, NDPP.
I personally won't respond to the spurious logic of "well unless it's important enough for people to change their vote in some election, then there's no point mobilizing and raising consciousness on the issue".
Happily however, a more important question than the precise way Khashoggi's body was dismembered, and on whose orders, is re-appearing in the media - that of Samar Badawi (and also Raif):
Trudeau prods Saudi crown prince again on case that sparked Twitter row
Samar Badawi was one of a group of women's rights activists who were arrested in May, around the time that Saudi Arabia lifted the ban on women driving.
At the same time the Saudi royal family announced to the world that women could now drive, it began to pick up the very female activists who had been pushing for the change.
One of them was Samar Badawi.
Last month, Amnesty International reported that relatives of the women had learned that they had been tortured in prison and in some cases, sexually abused while being held in a hotel by masked male guards.
Another woman was reportedly hung from a ceiling. Several were said to be in very poor condition following floggings and electric shock torture, with some shaking uncontrollably or unable to stand, and one suicide attempt.
I personally won't respond to the spurious logic of "well unless it's important enough for people to change their vote in some election, then there's no point mobilizing and raising consciousness on the issue".
Did I ever say you shouldn't raise consciousness on the issue? This started off because you asked cco to explain how focusing on the murder of Khashoggi would do anything to cancel the arms-deal between Canada and Saudi Arabia. Fair enough question, but I don't see why the person asking that question shouldn't expect to answer it about his own prefered methods.
NDP MP Helene Laverdiere Suggests Canada is Complicit In War Crimes
https://twitter.com/NatObserver/status/1068644972029722624
"NDP MP Helene Laverdiere demanded the Trudeau government launch an independent investigation, Friday, in the wake of new evidence compiled by National Observer showing Canadian weapons are being used in the Saudi-led war in Yemen.
'We are talking about potential complicity in war crimes,' Laverdiere, the NDP foreign affairs critic, said Friday during Question Period in the House of Commons. 'Will the government wake up and launch an investigation?'
Earlier this year, UN Sec-Gen Antonio Guterres described Yemen as 'the world's worst humanitarian crisis.' The UN estimates three-quarters of the population needs humanitarian aid and protection."
STOP Selling Arms to Saudi Mass Murderers in Yemen
..sent emails
The issue of the arms-contracts came up in the 2015 election, and all three of the nation-wide party leaders(not sure about the BQ) endorsed the sales. And the vast majority of the votes went to those parties.
Not just those parties, IIRC.
Union asks NDP to keep Saudi armoured vehicles deal ‘under wraps,’ fearing ‘significant’ job losses
In a federal leaders’ debate, when the NDP’s Tom Mulcair questioned Conservative Leader Stephen Harper on General Dynamics Land Systems Canada’s (GDLS) $15-billion deal to supply armoured vehicles to Saudi Arabia, it drew fire from Unifor, the union that represents workers at the London plant.
Saudi Dissident To Sue Israel Spyware Firm NSO Group Over Khashoggi Murder
https://twitter.com/CJPME/status/1069675252416950273
"Omar Abdulaziz, a Saudi activist based in Canada, has filed a lawsuit against Israeli spyware firm NSO Group for hacking his phone at the behest of Saudi Arabia. The lawsuit claims the spyware was used to track Abdulaziz's communications with Khashoggi."
Did CSE/CSIS facilitate this surveillance, I wonder?
Very possible NDPP!
Follow this case if you can and see what comes out of it.
Saudi Dissident To Sue Israel Spyware Firm NSO Group Over Khashoggi Murder
https://twitter.com/CJPME/status/1069675252416950273
"Omar Abdulaziz, a Saudi activist based in Canada, has filed a lawsuit against Israeli spyware firm NSO Group for hacking his phone at the behest of Saudi Arabia. The lawsuit claims the spyware was used to track Abdulaziz's communications with Khashoggi."
Did CSE/CSIS facilitate this surveillance, I wonder?
Why would they need to. I'm sure the Mossad did.
Even some Republican senators in the U.S. have had enough.
Following briefing by CIA Director on Khashoggi murder, GOP @SenBobCorker says “no question” Saudi Crown Prince “murdered him”
@LindseyGrahamSC on MBS: "I cannot support arm sales to Saudi Arabia as long as he's in charge of this country"
"More than 50 US-Saudi Airstrikes hit Yemen over the last 10 hours today, 25 of them hit Saada and Sanaa. Saudi escalation at the border at its highest level today. All this happens on the eve of UN sponsored talks about peace talks in Sweden."
https://twitter.com/narrabyee/status/1069990983700484096
Canada won't stop selling arms to the butchers because Canadians won't make them stop. But perhaps an email isn't too much trouble?
Yemen On the Brink (and vid)
https://www.rt.com/shows/crosstalk/445604-yemen-trump-administration-iran/
"The Trump administration's continued support of the Saudi-led war is morally indefensible. Blaming Iran for the humanitarian crisis in Yemen only ensures more suffering. It is time to end this senseless conflict."
Canada won't stop selling arms to the butchers because Canadians won't make them stop. But perhaps an email isn't too much trouble?
If you want them to really notice your email maybe you should include some ideas where the government will make up the loss of the $15 billion dollar contract. Higher taxes perhaps?
Canada won't stop selling arms to the butchers because Canadians won't make them stop. But perhaps an email isn't too much trouble?
If you want them to really notice your email maybe you should include some ideas where the government will make up the loss of the $15 billion dollar contract. Higher taxes perhaps?
General Dynamics gets the money I believe.
And perhaps we could transfer $15 billion from the estimated $45 in direct and indirect subsidies we give annually to Big Oil, instead of relying on the bloody Saudi profits of Murder Inc Canada and Yemeni genocide?
Canada won't stop selling arms to the butchers because Canadians won't make them stop. But perhaps an email isn't too much trouble?
If you want them to really notice your email maybe you should include some ideas where the government will make up the loss of the $15 billion dollar contract. Higher taxes perhaps?
General Dynamics gets the money I believe.
Well, what's the plan for compensating the workers, at least? Does General Dynamics Canada have to pony up, or is it the government? IANAL, but I would assume that, legally, GDC can't be forced to pay, since they themselves wouldn't be the ones terminating the contract. So, that would either leave the government footing the bill, or the workers go uncompensated.
Well, what's the plan for compensating the workers, at least? Does General Dynamics Canada have to pony up, or is it the government?
I worked all my life. Contracts were acquired by the employer. Contracts were lost by the employer. Workers worked, workers got laid off. Compensation if you got laid off: 1) Up to 15 weeks of EI while actively seeking employment. 2) Whatever your union negotiated as a top-up or extension or severance with the employer.
So: The government is on the hook for nothing. EI is a fund made up of contributions from employers and workers.
General Dynamics is on the hook for whatever their collective agreement says, which I don't know. That's a private matter between them and the union. They're not entitled to any government compensation that I can remotely imagine - unless the government made some promise to them and broke it? I do hope the government is not making promises to big companies that they then break and we have to pick up the tab.
So cancel the arms deal, now. Maybe some workers will be out of work for a while. Too bad. We ain't gonna study war no more.
Saudi Arabia Slams US Senate for Naming MBS as 'Responsible' For Khashoggi Murder
Perfect cue for JT to follow head office and cut the contract for our death-machines.
Saudi Arabia Slams US Senate for Naming MBS as 'Responsible' For Khashoggi Murder
Perfect cue for JT to follow head office and cut the contract for our death-machines.
At a loss of 15 Billion dollars for the economy, 13'500 Canadian jobs and a huge cancelation penalty. That's going to be an interesting sell to Canadian tax payers.
Is the Yemeni Canadian voting base large enough to make it a worth while move by the Liberals? At at 2016 census of 6'600 Yemeni Canadians in Canada I doubt it.
