Detention of Meng Wanzhou - CFO of Huawei

1054 posts / 0 new

Sat, 2018-12-15 18:54

Noops

Neocynic wrote:

All Canadians should feel embarrassed and ashamed by this blatantly politically motivated kidnapping and arrest of Huawei's CFO. Cowardly Canadian officials allowed their greater loyalty to American neocons and their militarist agenda to trump their presumed loyalty to Canada's best interests and the rule of law. If anyone should be in jail, it should be those officials for treason. Sad sad day for all Canadians...
. The case is so ridiculously flimsy that it is obviously a politically motivated prosecution to hold her hostage to US/China trade talks, as Trump the Twit himself has just now admitted. It is pure cowardly bullshit to argue this is a "purely" legal proceeding.

Excellent!

Particularly liked the name "Trump the Twit". :)

Sat, 2018-12-15 19:06

#153

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Do you think they would have been obligated to arrest someone for not paying speeding tickets? Would the PM have signed off on that?

They totally would not have been obligated -- the act restricts eligibility for extradition to crimes for which the normal sentence would be two years or more.

Quote:
You keep referring to Canada as a democratic country so what the f$$$ is your point?

I guess it's that billionaires aren't really compatible with communism. But what say you?

Sat, 2018-12-15 19:21

#154

kropotkin1951

Magoo there appears to have been an insufficient case against this individual citizen of China. We don't jail executives in this country for much of anything and certainly not for the type of obfuscation of corporate structures that Meng is accused of. She is not the controlling mind of the company accused of breaching the sanctions. They claim she might have been incorrect when she said a subsidiary was not a subsidiary. I have done lots of labour law and have heard more than one executive under oath obfuscate the corporate structure do try and avoid succession rights of unions. I can't imagine anyone arresting them no matter what the penalties are for lying to a tribunal. This is pure political bullshit and the Canadian side should have told the US a firm NO.

Sat, 2018-12-15 19:46

#155

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
They claim she might have been incorrect when she said a subsidiary was not a subsidiary.

Perhaps. But she's not being tried in Canada, and it would be inappropriate for Raybould-Wilson to second guess that.

Quote:
This is pure political bullshit and the Canadian side should have told the US a firm NO.

Canada may get its chance, if the U.S. makes the formal extradition request. But prior to that, it's not Canada's job to try or judge the case, short of determining some basic prima facie validity.

Sat, 2018-12-15 19:47

(Reply to #155) #156

WWWTT

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Actually Hua Wei is an employee owned company! Ms Meng's father, Ren Zheng Fei only owns a very small portion of it (1.4%). Profits are shared with 64% of employees who own shares. There's a total of 180 000 employees (700 in Canada). You know of any Canadian or American equivalent cco? Zuckerberg would be jumping out of a window before he ever did something like that!

That's super. But she's still a billionaire. A communist billionaire! Imagine that! Karl Marx could never have.

You keep referring to China as a "communist" country. Do you know what communism means? And can you tell us how it's compatible with one or two individuals amassing billions of dollars by employing others to do the work?

Sure I known the Chinese definition of communism. I also figured you out Mr Magoo! Long time ago. China is a communist socialist country that has many successful people. China only uses the US to serve its own interest, and when they clash, China easily tightens the thumb screws on Trump and watch him squirm. Same with Canada and the liberals.

I suspect you really want the US imperialists to win. That’s why you’re always trying to discredit China’s communist government.

Sat, 2018-12-15 19:52

#157

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
I suspect you really want the US imperialists to win. That’s why you’re always trying to discredit China’s communist government.

I'm just suggesting that maybe having some private billionaires (and two stock exchanges) might exempt China from the "communist" club. You seem to have nothing to say about that.

Sat, 2018-12-15 20:18

(Reply to #157) #158

WWWTT

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Canada did not need to arrest her. The charge against her was insufficient as a reasonable cause to have her arrested. Do you think they would have been obligated to arrest someone for not paying speeding tickets? Would the PM have signed off on that?

The Chinese arrested a couple of low level spooks in retaliation, so that seems like a measured response. They cited national security and that severely limits the legal options available to the accused. It is also true that under Canadian law you have no rights if you get arrested under our national security laws so its not like anyone should be surprised that the Chinese system is almost identical to ours.

There’s actually a very real threat from Islamic extremists in China who are enraged that an atheist communist government is in power. These groups are probably getting funding weapons training and protection from western operatives in China. A similar operative acting out of the US British embassies in Beijing is suspected to be behind the Tiananmen Square fiasco 30 years ago

These Canadian operatives were probably suspected and followed by the Chinese security for some time. There’s probably more. The arrest of Ms Meng gave China enough reason to detain them. If she’s actually deported to the US, China will keep arresting US nationals they suspect

Sat, 2018-12-15 20:29

(Reply to #158) #159

WWWTT

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
I suspect you really want the US imperialists to win. That’s why you’re always trying to discredit China’s communist government.

I'm just suggesting that maybe having some private billionaires (and two stock exchanges) might exempt China from the "communist" club. You seem to have nothing to say about that.

LOL! You just don’t know when to quit hey?

Let me ask you this, does everyone in Canada smoke pot? According to your logic the answer would be yes.

I know, way deep down Mr Magoo, you’re thankful that China will stand up to imperialism.

Sun, 2018-12-16 00:30

#160

kropotkin1951

In 2007, the RCMP-Interpol website listed the following countries as having extradition treaties with Canada: Albania, Argentina, Austria, Belgium, Bolivia, Chile, Colombia, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Ecuador, El Salvador, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Hong Kong, Hungary, Iceland, India, Israel, Italy, Korea, Latvia, Liberia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Mexico, Monaco, Netherlands, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Portugal, Romania, San Marino, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Thailand, United States and Uruguay.

How many of these countries would Canada arrest an executive of a US company for? I am sure that if Haiti or Guatemala wanted to have Bill Gates extradited for lying to a regulatory body that was investigating one of his companies the Canadian authorities would feel that their hands were tied. They would have to follow the process and Bill would have been jailed and now most likely he would be out on bail waiting for a hearing. Does anybody else think this would never happen.

Sun, 2018-12-16 04:34

#161

NDPP

Canada will never act vis a vis USA in any way other than as vassal or flunkey. Or as Chomsky accurately described the relationship: 'We are the masters and you shine our shoes.' It becomes a bit tedious to hear Trudeau, Freeland et al repeat the stale and mendacious nostrums about Canada's 'obligation' to arrest Ms Meng because above all else supposedly, Canada is 'a rule of law' country and this has nothing to do with politics. Bullshit. Only idiots or Canadians could believe such nonsense.

For more on Canada's 'obligations' and 'the rule of law', notice the 'credibly suspected' foreign criminals who it doesn't arrest even when its own law clearly calls for it to do so:

Lawyers Against War: 'Duty to Arrest Richard Cheney.'

http://www.nightslantern.ca/law/archive.htm

Sun, 2018-12-16 06:36

(Reply to #161) #162

WWWTT

kropotkin1951 wrote:

In 2007, the RCMP-Interpol website listed the following countries as having extradition treaties with Canada: Albania, Argentina, Austria, Belgium, Bolivia, Chile, Colombia, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Ecuador, El Salvador, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Hong Kong, Hungary, Iceland, India, Israel, Italy, Korea, Latvia, Liberia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Mexico, Monaco, Netherlands, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Portugal, Romania, San Marino, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Thailand, United States and Uruguay.

How many of these countries would Canada arrest an executive of a US company for? I am sure that if Haiti or Guatemala wanted to have Bill Gates extradited for lying to a regulatory body that was investigating one of his companies the Canadian authorities would feel that their hands were tied. They would have to follow the process and Bill would have been jailed and now most likely he would be out on bail waiting for a hearing. Does anybody else think this would never happen.

That is a very good point.

I suspect that what’s happening here is that the arrest of Ms Meng is a huge departure from what the extradition treaties were meant for(obviously).

When Freeland and Justin say that the rule of law must proceed, they’re actually making huge huge lies and misrepresentations. They would be telling the truth, if in fact there was were cases similar to the Ms Meng. But that’s not the case is it?

Sun, 2018-12-16 14:05

#163

NDPP

Canadian Ambassador to China Meets With Detained Michael Spavor

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canadian-ambassador-to-china-meets-with-de...

"Global Affairs Canada said Sunday that John McCallum, Canada's ambassador to China had met with Spavor earlier in the day..."

Pompeo's Arrogance Apparent in Intervention to Press China to Release Two Canadians

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1132030.shtml

"Canada is still clamoring about how 'unacceptable' it is for China to keep its people in custody, and still insisting that Meng's arrest under US request was banned at law. The world is not an expansion of legal systems and values expressed by the US and Canada. Different systems should be integrated in an inclusive environment.

Insolence and arrogance, represented by the US and Canada through their blatant accusation of China is the worst detriment to the world order. Ottawa must be aware that China has many cards to play and going against Beijing is a bad idea. Staying away from the tensions between China and the US should be what it seeks."

Trudeau/Freeland's dangerous US lackeyism losing Canada's 2nd largest trading partner, and driving us into even deeper collaboration with the American psycho regime.

Sun, 2018-12-16 14:22

#164

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Ottawa must be aware that China has many cards to play and going against Beijing is a bad idea.

It's true. China can just keep detaining Canadians until we roll over and do as they say, or until every Canadian in China is in custody.

This is what you think we should do, yes?

Sun, 2018-12-16 14:49

(Reply to #164) #165

Noops

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I am sure that if Haiti or Guatemala wanted to have Bill Gates extradited for lying to a regulatory body that was investigating one of his companies the Canadian authorities would feel that their hands were tied. They would have to follow the process and Bill would have been jailed and now most likely he would be out on bail waiting for a hearing. Does anybody else think this would never happen.

Canada would never touch Gates. For you see, you don't mess with Uncle Sam!

Sun, 2018-12-16 18:18

#166

NDPP

An end to Canada's US dirty work: Free Meng Wanzhou!

Sun, 2018-12-16 15:54

#167

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
I am sure that if Haiti or Guatemala wanted to have Bill Gates extradited for lying to a regulatory body that was investigating one of his companies the Canadian authorities would feel that their hands were tied.

Like most conjecture, that's possible. If that were to happen, could we count on you to demand that Canada not do Haiti's dirty work, and rip up that treaty?

This is just such spurious logic. Y9u believe that in a different situation, Canada would rip up a treaty, ergo Canada should rip up a treaty in this situation too.

Sun, 2018-12-16 16:19

(Reply to #167) #168

WWWTT

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Ottawa must be aware that China has many cards to play and going against Beijing is a bad idea.

It's true. China can just keep detaining Canadians until we roll over and do as they say, or until every Canadian in China is in custody.

This is what you think we should do, yes?

Lots of Chinese in Canada to! Canada can detain more Chinese people. Now I know you’d like that, but do you think Canada would do that?

Just the fact that Canada basically can’t do anything much more than extradite Meng to the US makes team Justin and the liberals look very weak! And every time this is in the news, that’s just more bad news for the liberals.

Sun, 2018-12-16 16:36

(Reply to #168) #169

WWWTT

NDPP wrote:

And end to Canada's US dirty work: Free Meng Wanzhou!

Meng is free on bail. And probably enjoying life in Vancouver.

I’m sure the liberals want to see Meng gone yesterday, or better yet, none of this ever happened in the first place!

To me this is looking like a plot by China to discredit US imperialism. I know for a fact Beijing was never happy that wealthy Chinese nationals were moving millions out of the country. Many of these nationals were actually wanted for corruption and were/ are slowly trying to prepare to flee in case China got enough evidence on them.

Now I could be wrong because HuaWei does big business in Canada, so Beijing could have granted Meng to invest in Canada to help secure contracts?

Esentially what I’m saying NDPP is that there’s probably a lot to this that we will never know about. Also probably a whole slew of other countries and organizations Involved outside of Canada China US and Iran.

Sun, 2018-12-16 16:41

(Reply to #169) #170

WWWTT

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
I am sure that if Haiti or Guatemala wanted to have Bill Gates extradited for lying to a regulatory body that was investigating one of his companies the Canadian authorities would feel that their hands were tied.

Like most conjecture, that's possible. If that were to happen, could we count on you to demand that Canada not do Haiti's dirty work, and rip up that treaty?

This is just such spurious logic. Y9u believe that in a different situation, Canada would rip up a treaty, ergo Canada should rip up a treaty in this situation too.

LOL. Why Mr Magoo? Why such a question when you know very well that Gates only became the richest person in the world by being a patent troll and extracting wealth without returning any value making life a little more painful for millions of people?

In other words, there’s people that deserve to be in jail, many in jail who shouldn’t be there.

Sun, 2018-12-16 17:04

(Reply to #170) #171

contrarianna

kropotkin1951 wrote:

....

How many of these countries would Canada arrest an executive of a US company for? I am sure that if Haiti or Guatemala wanted to have Bill Gates extradited for lying to a regulatory body that was investigating one of his companies the Canadian authorities would feel that their hands were tied. They would have to follow the process and Bill would have been jailed and now most likely he would be out on bail waiting for a hearing. Does anybody else think this would never happen.

Quite so. State lawfare is inherently selective.
Many are instilled with the false notion that the state-corporate justice systems actually reflect "Justice", a term which by definition entails impartiality and equal treatment for similar situations.

The U.S., not China, is the real threat to international rule of law
JEFFREY D. SACHS
NEW YORK
CONTRIBUTED TO THE GLOBE AND MAIL
PUBLISHED DECEMBER 12, 2018
....
The United States rarely arrests senior business people, U.S. or foreign, for alleged crimes committed by their companies. Corporate managers are usually arrested for their alleged personal crimes (such as embezzlement, bribery or violence) rather than their company’s alleged malfeasance. Yes, corporate managers should be held to account for their company’s malfeasance, up to and including criminal charges, but to start this practice with a leading Chinese business person – rather than the dozens of culpable U.S. CEOs and CFOs – is a stunning provocation to the Chinese government, business community and public.
....
Ms. Meng’s arrest is a shocking break with practice. Yes, hold CEOs and CFOs accountable – but start at home in order to avoid hypocrisy, self-interest disguised as high principle and the risk of inciting a new global conflict.

Quite transparently, the U.S. action against Ms. Meng really seems to be part of the Trump administration’s broader attempt to undermine China’s economy by imposing tariffs, closing Western markets to Chinese high-technology exports and blocking Chinese purchases of U.S. and European technology companies. One can say, without exaggeration, that this is part of an economic war on China – and a reckless one at that....

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-the-us-not-china-is-the-...

See also:
Canada abetting Washington's 'new Cold War' with Huawei arrest, says economist
Jeffrey Sachs believes arrest an attempt by U.S. to 'stop China's rise' at all costs
Justin Li · CBC News · Posted: Dec 15, 2018 3:19 PM ET | Last Updated: December 15

....
"She's charged with — as I understand it — fraud, for a presentation she gave to HSBC about Iran dealings," said Sachs.

"It's interesting that HSBC was itself sanctioned for massive violations of U.S. sanctions to Iran, but not a single executive faced any charges, much less an arrest in a foreign airport, and dragged through a process like [Meng]," he added.

"This is extraordinary, and I understand why China's reaction is as it is, because it's absolutely, completely out of the norm."....

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-us-huawei-arrest-international-t...

Sun, 2018-12-16 17:28

(Reply to #171) #172

Noops

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
I am sure that if Haiti or Guatemala wanted to have Bill Gates extradited for lying to a regulatory body that was investigating one of his companies the Canadian authorities would feel that their hands were tied.

Like most conjecture, that's possible. If that were to happen, could we count on you to demand that Canada not do Haiti's dirty work, and rip up that treaty?

This is just such spurious logic. Y9u believe that in a different situation, Canada would rip up a treaty, ergo Canada should rip up a treaty in this situation too.

You should know Mr. Magoo that logic does not enter into the equation when we
are dealing with an exceptional country like the U.S., hell bent on fulfilling the New World Order.

Sun, 2018-12-16 17:36

#173

Mr. Magoo

If you've abandoned logic "because Trump", I guess that's your right, but I'm not ready to just throw my hands in the air and say "but this crazy mixed up world makes no sense any more so I may as well join in!".

Sun, 2018-12-16 18:03

(Reply to #173) #174

Paladin1

NDPP wrote:

Bullshit. Only idiots or Canadians could believe such nonsense.

So are you an idiot or are you a believer?

Sun, 2018-12-16 18:10

#175

contrarianna

Addendeum to my last post:

Chretien's Foreign Affairs cabinet minister dishes on how state-driven "not political Rule of Law" actually operates:

Why former foreign minister John Manley thinks Canada botched Huawei affair
John Manley says detaining Meng Wanzhou should have been an opportunity for 'creative incompetence'
....
[Q:] It's a bit late, I guess, now. But was it a mistake for Canada to detain Ms. Meng?

[Manley:]As I said, I think it was a good opportunity for a little bit of creative incompetence on the part of Canadian authorities and somehow just miss her.

This has happened from time to time that we sometimes don't always do exactly everything we needed to do and the world really wouldn't have been any wiser about it....

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-friday-edition-1.4946...

Sun, 2018-12-16 18:12

(Reply to #175) #176

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Canada did not need to arrest her. The charge against her was insufficient as a reasonable cause to have her arrested. Do you think they would have been obligated to arrest someone for not paying speeding tickets? Would the PM have signed off on that?

The Chinese arrested a couple of low level spooks in retaliation, so that seems like a measured response. They cited national security and that severely limits the legal options available to the accused. It is also true that under Canadian law you have no rights if you get arrested under our national security laws so its not like anyone should be surprised that the Chinese system is almost identical to ours.

The PM does not sign off in the way you are suggesting -- here is part of the statement from the minister:

Ms. Meng was arrested pursuant to a provisional arrest warrant issued by a judge of the Supreme Court of British Columbia, a procedure which is contemplated in both the Extradition Act and the Treaty on Extradition between Canada and the United States in circumstances where urgency has been established. The decision to seek a provisional arrest warrant from the court is made by Department of Justice officials without any political interference or direction.

The next steps in the case are as follows:

Under the terms of the extradition treaty, the United States has 60 days from the date of Ms. Meng’s arrest to make a full extradition request.
Department of Justice officials have a further 30 days to determine whether to issue an Authority to Proceed which will formally commence the extradition process.
Should an Authority to Proceed be issued, an extradition hearing will be scheduled by the British Columbia Supreme Court.

*****

It seems that there was little choice so far. However, I wonder if there is any interum ability to introduce a motion regarding Trump's comments and end this without having to wait? It seems that there has been no political involvement by Canada into the outcome, although given the comments from Trump, perhaps there should be, with a view to ending this early.

Sun, 2018-12-16 18:26

#177

NDPP

German Cyber Watchdog Says No Evidence That Huawei Spies

https://on.rt.com/9klk

"Germany's cyber-security authority says claims that Huawei is spying on customers are not backed up by evidence and has urged caution before boycotting the Chinese telecommunications giant. 'We've never been asked to install a backdoor for espionage anywhere, there's no law that forces us to do it, we never did it and we never will,' a company spokesperson said."

Sun, 2018-12-16 18:32

(Reply to #177) #178

kropotkin1951

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Ms. Meng was arrested pursuant to a provisional arrest warrant issued by a judge of the Supreme Court of British Columbia, a procedure which is contemplated in both the Extradition Act and the Treaty on Extradition between Canada and the United States in circumstances where urgency has been established. [emphasis added]

This is an unusual not routine measure that requires urgent circumstances. A line I used a lot when dealing with employers was that your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency requiring suspension of the normal contract rules.

I do not see any urgent circumstance that required this extraordinary process. The US could easily have issued an arrest warrant and requested Meng to appear in court. After all there is no imminent danger and the acts were supposedly committed a few years ago. This kind of law specifically bars political charges and how can possibly breaching unlawful sanctions against Iran be anything except political at its core. You have jumped down the letter of the law rabbit hole. The Department of Justice had ample reason to say sorry this is not a extraditable offense and we are not arresting her. As for the Imperial Magoo. Of course I would want Canada to apply the same proper judicial standard to all countries. I would not want us to play these kinds of plausible denial games; the devil made me do it, my hands were tied when the liberty of people is involved.

The idea that Canada does not have a say in whether it arrests people as requested by foreign governments is just a overly strict interpretation of the statute. However it is really hard for a vassal state to say no to requests from its imperial center especially when they come wrapped in plausible deniability.

Sun, 2018-12-16 19:14

#179

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
I think it was a good opportunity for a little bit of creative incompetence on the part of Canadian authorities and somehow just miss her.

This has happened from time to time that we sometimes don't always do exactly everything we needed to do and the world really wouldn't have been any wiser about it....

Good Liberal advice.

Quote:
It seems that there was little choice so far.

Well, we had:

1. rip up the treaty. Fuck treaties, man!

2. play stupid.

Here's my idea, that I think Canada should have done: when the U.S. was about to ask us to arrest Meng we could have hung a "gone fishin' sign on the door, and pretended we were fishing. Who could argue with that? If the U.S. made any kind of stink about it, some junior Minister could point to the sign and make an exaggerated shrug as though saying "what do you want me to do about it... they've clearly gone fishing".

So now there's three things we could have done, all of them far superior to arresting Meng in accordance with an international treaty we signed years ago.

Sun, 2018-12-16 19:40

#180

NDPP

"Under dual criminality unless Canada believes Huawei actions constitute a crime in Canada they are not required to serve the warrant. How can it be a crime when they allow Huawei to operate?"

https://twitter.com/SmithCan1/status/1074343880076611584

The Bind Canada's In...

https://twitter.com/wicary/status/1074296315364823040

Sun, 2018-12-16 19:58

#181

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Under dual criminality unless Canada believes Huawei actions constitute a crime in Canada they are not required to serve the warrant. How can it be a crime when they allow Huawei to operate?

Would it be SOP for Canada to expel a company because it's alleged one of their executives committed fraud?

And this guy claims to be a retired lawyer. Huh.

Sun, 2018-12-16 20:58

#182

WWWTT

@NDPP

Canada isn’t in any sort of bind. Justin and the liberal crew are! They’re the government, they allowed Meng to be arrested in the first place, they could have avoided all of this if they had a backbone.

I cant see how Justin is going to get out of this? He hasn’t even come close yet

Sun, 2018-12-16 22:52

(Reply to #182) #183

Noops

WWWTT wrote:

@NDPP

Canada isn’t in any sort of bind. Justin and the liberal crew are! They’re the government, they allowed Meng to be arrested in the first place, they could have avoided all of this if they had a backbone.

I cant see how Justin is going to get out of this? He hasn’t even come close yet

The only way he gets out is if someone does it for him. He's actually digging his heels in on it!

Either the U.S. doesn't make the formal request or they do but Meng/Huawei appeals and draws this out for years and years.

Sun, 2018-12-16 22:58

(Reply to #183) #184

Noops

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
It seems that there was little choice so far.

Well, we had:

1. rip up the treaty. Fuck treaties, man!

2. play stupid.

Here's my idea, that I think Canada should have done: when the U.S. was about to ask us to arrest Meng we could have hung a "gone fishin' sign on the door, and pretended we were fishing. Who could argue with that? If the U.S. made any kind of stink about it, some junior Minister could point to the sign and make an exaggerated shrug as though saying "what do you want me to do about it... they've clearly gone fishing".

So now there's three things we could have done, all of them far superior to arresting Meng in accordance with an international treaty we signed years ago.

Actually your idea is not as silly as it seems.
The good 'ol U.S. of A. adopted this very tactic during 9/11 with their air defences.
Worked like a charm and none of the top brass had to pay. They even got promoted!

Mon, 2018-12-17 03:51

#185

NDPP

Indeed, this obvious solution has been discussed widely since the crisis began. I heard ex deputy PM John Manley mention it again last week. Because Canada had the opportunity to avoid this crisis and didn't take it, we must assume Trudeau/Freeland et al made a conscious and calculated decision to capture/kidnap Meng Wanzhou for Washington. And China clearly knows it too.

And so after being thoroughly screwed with USMCA, 'to save the auto industry', we were told, our second largest global trading relationship is also chucked in the trash for nought.

Since ultimately, it was his decision, Justin Trudeau has a lot to answer for. Sadly, taking dives for Uncle Sam against their own national interests is nothing new for Canadian governments or the Vichy politicians that lead them.

A Wiser Government Would Have Warned Meng Wanzhou to Stay Away

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-a-wiser-government-would...

"...All of which brings us to the arrest of Meng Wanzhou on her arrival in Vancouver. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has admitted knowing about the extradition request several days in advance - in other words, before Ms Meng boarded her flight to Canada. There was ample time for a discrete conversation with someone at Huawei Canada.

A similar suggestion by former deputy prime minister John Manley - that the Trudeau government missed an opportunity for 'creative incompetence' has been described as an attack on the rule of law. However, there is nothing in the US-Canada Extradition Treaty that prohibits warning an individual to stay beyond the reach of Canadian law.

The Chinese government knows this. Its reaction has been excessive [not at all imho] - including detaining two Canadian citizens - but the anger will have been stoked by the knowledge Ms Meng could have been warned. Now that the courts are involved, the moment for political decision making has past. Years of appeals and worsening China-Canada relations could be ahead.

Mon, 2018-12-17 07:44

(Reply to #185) #186

cco

Quote:

"...All of which brings us to the arrest of Meng Wanzhou on her arrival in Vancouver. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has admitted knowing about the extradition request several days in advance - in other words, before Ms Meng boarded her flight to Canada. There was ample time for a discrete conversation with someone at Huawei Canada.

If Harper had discreetly leaked information about a criminal warrant to a billionaire's corporate underlings to help said billionaire avoid prosecution, would we have considered that good statecraft, or criminal obstruction of justice?

Mon, 2018-12-17 08:14

#187

NDPP

Not even close. From above Globe article - the author : 'Michael Byers holds the Canada Research Chair in Global Politics and International Law at the University of British Columbia.'

Huawei CFO: Trump's Trade War Hostage

https://sptnkne.ws/kqCr (and podcast)

"Canada's arrest of Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou at the US' request earlier this month makes her a de-facto hostage of Trump's trade war with China."

Butina, Huawei CFO Cases Sparks Concern US Judiciary Politicized

https://youtu.be/zyavyUAR7eU

With China/Russia anything goes. Because they deserve it.

Mon, 2018-12-17 14:31

#188

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
If Harper had discreetly leaked information about a criminal warrant to a billionaire's corporate underlings to help said billionaire avoid prosecution, would we have considered that good statecraft, or criminal obstruction of justice?

Ya, these "better ideas" really aren't getting better.

What if the government just totally pretended they don't speak English? Could that have worked?

I don't think it's a great day when we tell the government that they failed us by not being dishonest. When they're just as dishonest with us in the future ("Oh, sorry, the plans for that affordable housing somehow got misplaced") what will we say to them? Certainly not that we have higher expectations of them.

It's also ironic that it's apparently "obvious" that Canada is "sucking up" to the U.S. to preserve trade deals, but we should have helped Meng avoid the law because now we've put Canada/China trade deals in jeopardy.

Mon, 2018-12-17 14:59

(Reply to #188) #189

bekayne

NDPP wrote:

A Wiser Government Would Have Warned Meng Wanzhou to Stay Away

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-a-wiser-government-would...

"The Chinese government knows this. Its reaction has been excessive [not at all imho] - including detaining two Canadian citizens

So at what point does it become excessive? 10 Canadians detained? 100? 1000?

Mon, 2018-12-17 16:01

#190

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
So at what point does it become excessive?

As revenge for arresting a Chinese billionaire (and "sucking up" to Trump) even thousands wouldn't go far enough.

Trump's offhand comment about intervening is legally sufficient proof, evidently, that the U.S. is doing this for political reasons and we should not accept this.

But when a few days later China arrests two Canadians on vague charges, after pretty much hinting that there would be payback, we must remember that China is acting honestly and in good faith, and if we had more principle we'd humbly ask them to arrest even more Canadians on even more vague charges until we learn our lesson.

Mon, 2018-12-17 16:05

(Reply to #190) #191

Noops

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
If Harper had discreetly leaked information about a criminal warrant to a billionaire's corporate underlings to help said billionaire avoid prosecution, would we have considered that good statecraft, or criminal obstruction of justice?

Ya, these "better ideas" really aren't getting better.

What if the government just totally pretended they don't speak English? Could that have worked?

We get it Magoo. Everything the Canadian government has done so far with the Meng affair is AOK with you. :(

Mon, 2018-12-17 16:12

(Reply to #191) #192

Noops

bekayne wrote:

NDPP wrote:

A Wiser Government Would Have Warned Meng Wanzhou to Stay Away

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-a-wiser-government-would...

"The Chinese government knows this. Its reaction has been excessive [not at all imho] - including detaining two Canadian citizens

So at what point does it become excessive? 10 Canadians detained? 100? 1000?

Depends who they arrest.
They clearly have the upper hand now.

The U.S. cemented the "in our national security interest" excuse some time ago, as legit.
Now any country, including China can use it and thumb their nose at them.

If they arrest low level spooks, then 10+ would seem reasonable.
If they arrest high level, CEO's/CFO's from top corporations, then probably 2 or 3 would seem reasonable.

Mon, 2018-12-17 16:15

#193

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Everything the Canadian government has done so far with the Meng affair is AOK with you. :(

It's better than:

a) ripping up a treaty we signed in good faith years ago

b) pretending we're stupid, incompetent, or both

c) knowingly obstructing justice

I feel like asking the government to ignore treaties, be intentionally incompetent, or obstruct justice would set a bit of a dangerous precedent.

But what say you? Are these the sorts of problem solving strategies we should encourage?

Mon, 2018-12-17 17:37

(Reply to #193) #194

Paladin1

Mr. Magoo wrote:

I don't think it's a great day when we tell the government that they failed us by not being dishonest. When they're just as dishonest with us in the future ("Oh, sorry, the plans for that affordable housing somehow got misplaced") what will we say to them? Certainly not that we have higher expectations of them.

It's also ironic that it's apparently "obvious" that Canada is "sucking up" to the U.S. to preserve trade deals, but we should have helped Meng avoid the law because now we've put Canada/China trade deals in jeopardy.

Funny how that works eh?

Mon, 2018-12-17 18:10

#195

voice of the damned

I think the argument from trade-deals is just being used as an any-weapon-to-hand by people who oppose the detention of Meng for other reasons. Taken to its logical conclusion, our foreign-policy should just be based on following the lead of whoever is offering the best trade deals at any given time.

I also don't buy the argument that we should worry about offending public opinion in China. I'm sure a lot of Americans were upset when we didn't follow them into the Iraq War in 2003, but making people in other countries feel good about Canada should not be the overarching priority of the Ministry Of Foreign Affairs.

I do think there is something to the suggestion that Canada could have avoided this whole fiasco by quietly warning Meng to stay out of the country. Yeah, it's a bit sneaky, but it's still within the realm of the law, and if we don't want to be in a position of having to take sides in the case, I think it's one of the realpolitik options available to us(though we'd probably have to keep it on the hush-hush). I'm sure governments do stuff like that all the time to avoid embarrassing squeezes.

Mon, 2018-12-17 18:26

(Reply to #195) #196

Noops

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Everything the Canadian government has done so far with the Meng affair is AOK with you. :(

It's better than:

a) ripping up a treaty we signed in good faith years ago

b) pretending we're stupid, incompetent, or both

c) knowingly obstructing justice

I feel like asking the government to ignore treaties, be intentionally incompetent, or obstruct justice would set a bit of a dangerous precedent.

But what say you? Are these the sorts of problem solving strategies we should encourage?

Hey dude, why are you sucking up to the Americans?
Do you think they would care one iota if the shoe was on the other foot, what Canada thought?
First comes America (U.S.), then the rest of the world. And damn any treaty if it turns ugly on us (U.S.) or isn't in our best interests (politically, financially, legally etc.).

That is the real world. Get with the program and stop living in the "but the contract says..." world.

Mon, 2018-12-17 18:32

(Reply to #196) #197

voice of the damned

Noops wrote:

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Everything the Canadian government has done so far with the Meng affair is AOK with you. :(

It's better than:

a) ripping up a treaty we signed in good faith years ago

b) pretending we're stupid, incompetent, or both

c) knowingly obstructing justice

I feel like asking the government to ignore treaties, be intentionally incompetent, or obstruct justice would set a bit of a dangerous precedent.

But what say you? Are these the sorts of problem solving strategies we should encourage?

Hey dude, why are you sucking up to the Americans?
Do you think they would care one iota if the shoe was on the other foot, what Canada thought?
First comes America (U.S.), then the rest of the world. And damn any treaty if it turns ugly on us (U.S.) or isn't in our best interests (politically, financially, legally etc.).

That is the real world. Get with the program and stop living in the "but the contract says..." world.

So, if Conrad Black had been apprhended at an airport in Canada, instead of at his mansion in Florida, when the feds charged him with embezzlement(or whatever it was), you'd have said Canada shouldn't send him to the USA for trial, because the Americans don't really care about us?

Mon, 2018-12-17 18:39

(Reply to #197) #198

NDPP

[quote=voice of the damned]

I'm sure a lot of Americans were upset when we didn't follow them into the Iraq War in 2003,

[quote=NDPP]

Canada's 'Open Secret': Deep Complicity in the Iraq War

http://rabble.ca/babble/national-news/canadas-quotopen-secretquot-deep-c...

Sorry for the drift but too important to let this common Canadian misperception pass.

Mon, 2018-12-17 18:46

(Reply to #198) #199

voice of the damned

NDPP] [quote=voice of the damned] I'm sure a lot of Americans were upset when we didn't follow them into the Iraq War in 2003, [quote=NDPP wrote:

Canada's 'Open Secret': Deep Complicity in the Iraq War

http://rabble.ca/babble/national-news/canadas-quotopen-secretquot-deep-c...

Sorry for the drift but too important to let this common Canadian misperception pass.

Yes, but I don't think the average American yahoo, fired up against those pacifist wimps up in Canada, would have been mollified to hear about the complicity described at that link. They wanted Canada involed to the same degree that the UK was.

My point was that, whatever it was they wanted, the Canadian government was not obligated to take their feelings into account. Nor is the government obligsted to take into account the "feelings" of the Chinese people, contra the ambassador's lament posted above.

Mon, 2018-12-17 19:14

#200

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Yeah, it's a bit sneaky, but it's still within the realm of the law, and if we don't want to be in a position of having to take sides in the case, I think it's one of the realpolitik options available to us(though we'd probably have to keep it on the hush-hush). I'm sure governments do stuff like that all the time to avoid embarrassing squeezes.

I wouldn't doubt that they do, but if we don't generally say "good, good" when we find out then it doesn't seem like a great idea, even though it certainly qualifies as another idea.

Borrowing your Conrad Black example, if we all found out that Stephen Harper called Conrad on the QT to say "don't come back to Canada for a while, we've been asked to arrest you if you do" would we say that was a good idea? If not, why would it be a good idea now?

As far as not taking sides, as I see it, we haven't. We didn't arrest Meng out of our own animus or trade plans, we did it because years ago we agreed to, and we've been on both ends of many extraditions since.

The idea that Trudeau knew this was going to happen, chose not to do something illegal or dishonest, so therefore it "proves" that he wanted this and is probably "in on the plan" is absurd.

It's like saying "you knew your team was behind, and you could have cheated but you chose not to so clearly you wanted the other team to win". A ten year-old would see through that "logic".

Mon, 2018-12-17 19:39

(Reply to #200) #201

WWWTT

Noops wrote:

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
If Harper had discreetly leaked information about a criminal warrant to a billionaire's corporate underlings to help said billionaire avoid prosecution, would we have considered that good statecraft, or criminal obstruction of justice?

Ya, these "better ideas" really aren't getting better.

What if the government just totally pretended they don't speak English? Could that have worked?

We get it Magoo. Everything the Canadian government has done so far with the Meng affair is AOK with you. :(

Its actually communist China that Mr Magoo is uncomfortable with

Detention of Meng Wanzhou - CFO of Huawei

Pages