Kremlingate part 2

voice of the damned wrote:

^ What "establisment norms" do you think Trump is in such flagrant violation of to make "the establishment" so desperate to get rid of him that they would fabricate stuff from whole-cloth to push him from office? He's generally a trash-talking bozo, which may hurt the GOP electorally if it alienates enough people in the groups that he insults and villifies, but otherwise, his policies are more-or-less the standard right-wing agenda, and not much of a threat to anyone's bottom-line.

I can think of a couple of things quickly offhand: First, I really dislike the US for reasons I'll elaborate on as we go on but even I wouldn't say they are filthy racists to the degree that Trump has promoted. He's brought the pointy hats and bedsheets out of the closets of the south that were moldering away since the 60's.

And then the buddying up to Russia, which none of we socialist leaning people would conedemn if we're thinking straight, but which drives fear and loathing into the hearts and minds of the US establishment!

Why would any NDP'er not think of those two themselves? Why couldn't an NDP'er think of a few more examples of why Trump and his sidekick Bolton must be eliminated soon?

Nuclear war started by Trump against Russia/China/N.Korea bring anything scary to mind?

NDPP wrote:

Death of Russiagate: Mueller Team Tied to Mifsud's Network

https://t.co/QLjlkQlXZ8

"...What we are left with is an indication of collusion between factions of the US and UK intelligence community in fabricating evidence of Trump-Russia collusion, a scandal that would have rocked the legacy press to its core, if Western establishment-based media had a spine..."

 

Spy Theories and the White House: Donald Trump as Russian Agent

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/01/21/spy-theories-and-the-white-house...

"The level of absurdity in US politics has now reached such vertigo inducing levels as to render all manner of things permissible. In the impoverished manic era of Donald Trump, the accusers have mimicked the man they wish to destroy...Ironically enough, the United States is witnessing the tendencies it has encouraged for decades in other states: foster local indignation, suspicion and paranoia, and unleash them against the leader of the day..."

I don't think you're reading it right and that's because you aren't acknowledging that Trump is evil trash and he has it coming. But as to the conclusion, I'll give you my view on how it's going to end.

It'll end with a whimper because the FBI/Mueller are more interested in upholding the corrupt establishment than bringing down the R party and by bringing down their pres. So I see the FBI/Mueller telling Trump that his kids are toast if he doesn't step down after his 4 year term. That will be a facesaver for Trump and everybody but the most jaded Dems will be happy. Otherwise, the Kennedy solution may be required. 

Even though it looks to the rest of the world that the US are nothing but a bunch of racist lowlife bums, it's not exactly true for all of them. There are some good ones and they know that their country is in great danger if Trump isn't dealt with soon. 

As to Russia messing in US politics? Of course they did and the US does too, probably more than any other country, with the possible exception of China now. But Trump did more than that and he did it for some different reasons. He's guilty as hell but as I've suggested, we most likely will never learn the truth because of Trump coming to accept the FBI/Mueller's facesaving offer. And then, if they need to whack him Kennedy style, we won't find out either. Same as Kennedy.

NDPP wrote:

All US presidents are 'evil trash'.

The Jimmy Dore Show

https://youtu.be/VwuFvE0eskM

"Mueller contradicts Buzzfeed 'Bombshell' Trump story."

Counterspin for those who buy their party's line. It's as if several of Trump's lieutenants haven't pled guilty to crimes and gone to jail already. They must be suggesting that Trump was squeaky clean and above it all. 

I predict the truth or non-truth in the buzzfeed story will be nuanced and be successfully spun either way, according to your politics.

Michael Moriarity wrote:

montgomery wrote:

I predict the truth or non-truth in the buzzfeed story will be nuanced and be successfully spun either way, according to your politics.

I agree with this. The best analysis of the matter that I've seen was by Marcy Wheeler.

Do you have a link to Marcy's opinion piece?

Michael Moriarity wrote:

That is a link.

Seems to be the wrong link but I'll read the whole thing if it isn't. I did look up a link to what Marcy Wheeler had to say and watched the vid. I chose the 12 minute one because you hadn't said anything specific about her opinion. Hour and a half videos need some reference to 'what it's all about and the time on the vid we'll hear it. Would you like to state the point on which you think Marcy got it about right?

Michael Moriarity wrote:

montgomery wrote:

Michael Moriarity wrote:

That is a link.

Seems to be the wrong link but I'll read the whole thing if it isn't. I did look up a link to what Marcy Wheeler had to say and watched the vid. I chose the 12 minute one because you hadn't said anything specific about her opinion. Hour and a half videos need some reference to 'what it's all about and the time on the vid we'll hear it. Would you like to state the point on which you think Marcy got it about right?

Well, the article attempts to explain the conflict between the Buzzfeed story and the denial by Mueller spokesman Peter Carr. She posits that the sources for the story were FBI agents or assistant U.S. Attorneys in the southern district of New York. These are the guys who raided Cohen's office, and prosecuted him for the campaign financing offences for which he got around 3 years in the pen. She spells out in detail how the interests of this office differ from those of Mueller's operation, and weaves it all together into a reasonable explanation for the apparent contradiction.

Sorry for the delay and the misunderstanding which was mine. I didn't connect Marcy and the empty wheel. But now that I've read it, I like it too! 

So Mueller and the FBI need to do some house cleaning if it's true. 

The Jimmy Dore Show

https://youtu.be/4LYJSb-h9m8

"FBI admits sabotaging progressive politicians as policy..."

Michael Moriarity wrote:

montgomery wrote:

So Mueller and the FBI need to do some house cleaning if it's true. 

In any Imperial administration, there will always be cabals and power struggles. That will never change.

Please allow me to correct that: 

In any  administration, there will always be cabals and power struggles. That will never change.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Why did you take out the descriptor "imperial" do you not think the US is an imperialist power?

Could he be saying any theoretical administration this would apply to -- not just Imperial and also not just American? I did not see the comment as suggesting that the US were not an imperial power but that he felt the rule was universal. It arguably is.

This is something that may go with any power structure -- whether or not it is imperial.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Indeed every organization has human politics that can get nasty. The more power in the organization the larger the struggles are for that power. I thought we were talking about some of the most powerful organizations any empire has produced so I thought the descriptor was very apt.

I've made my contempt for the US regime under Trump crystal clear! I'll even call it a neo-Nazi regime if it pleases you, because that's what it is. How bloody dare you suggest otherwise by suggesting I purposely left out the word, 'imperial'?

Apologies for the quoting errors. This format with the small quote box is difficult. A change to a more usuable format??

Michael Moriarity wrote:

montgomery wrote:

Apologies for the quoting errors. This format with the small quote box is difficult. A change to a more usuable format??

There is a small triangle icon in the lower right corner of the text entry control. You can drag it to make the entry box larger, and easier to edit and compose text in.

Thank you Michael!

Trump associate Roger Stone arrested:

“Mr. Stone was charged with seven counts, including obstruction of an official proceeding, making false statements and witness tampering.”

The indictment also says Stone “was contacted by senior Trump campaign officials to inquire about future releases” of stolen information by Wikileaks.

After one WikiLeaks release, the indictment says an associate of a high-ranking Trump campaign official texted Stone “well done.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/25/us/politics/roger-stone-indicted-mueller-investigation.html

https://mobile.twitter.com/LouiseMensch/status/1088796654638108672

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/who-directed-senior-trump-campaign-official-contact-stone-wikileaks

 Looney-tunes... But an accurate snapshot of the contemporary confused mindset of some so-called Canadian 'progressives.' Reactionary and Russopobic believers in msm conspiracy theories despite all evidence to the contrary.

Pogo wrote:

MSM for the most part is very tame.  There are a lot of progressive people in the US, mostly women, that are providing the detailed analysis of the Trump Kleptocracy and its international connections (Russia, but not just Russia).

And it's pretty much an international thing, as far as I can tell. I participate on a few other boards, with participants from across the anglosphere, and the general consensus seems to be that Trump is a godawful shitstain of a human being.

So, it would appear that the American MSM has, indeed, done a bang-up job of brainwashing almost everyone in Canada, the UK, Ireland, the Antipodes etc. into believing that there is something truly wretched about the Donald. Odd that they weren't able to achieve the same degree of success with their own countrymen before the last election.

josh wrote:

Hard to figure what that means josh. My guess is that it's a defeated, lying criminal bastard doing his impression of Nixon, being in pretty well the same shit now. 

I'm probably as anti-US establishment as the rest of the people who frequent this board, but I sure the hell can't accept that it's nothing but one big plot against Trump by the CIA/FBI/Mueller. 

I hope I got your intention right josh?

Roger Stone's Indictment Offers More Proof of No Contact Between Him and Julian Assange - WikiLeaks

https://on.rt.com/9n0w

"The indictment of Roger Stone[d], former adviser to Donald Trump, who was arrested by the FBI, has revealed more evidence that Trump's campaign had no 'backchannel' with WikiLeaks..."

"Statement from Julian Assange's US lawyer Barry Pollack on Roger J Stone: 'The down military-style arrest of Mr Stone, a 66 year old political consultant, was wholly unnecessary and served no purpose other than intimidation." (1/3) See thread.

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/1088868771702419457

"As I've said before, Stone had no actual link to WikiLeaks, he just trolled everyone into thinking that he did. He's now being indicted for lying to Congress - not to Mueller btw - about his efforts to find out what Wikileaks had from two people who also had no real link either."

https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1088823042044776448

Roger Stone's link to Wikileaks like Paul Manafort's didn't happen. So we throw another Russiagate nothingburger on the now towering pile. Brains turned to shit by relentless Russophobic msm lies and propaganda. Soon you crave nothing else and swallow everything.

Russia Could 'Flip the Switch' on US Electricity Anytime Warns Maddow on New Conspiracy

https://on.rt.com/9nfg

"They had to pull Alex Jones off major platforms to clear space for Maddow. Conspiracists don't like competition."

Once you have been rendered toxic with msm induced Russophobia you'll swallow anything true or not about the hated ones. Watch these same Neo-McCarthyite haters begin to resonate and fulminate similarly against China.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Russiagate was not bullshit. Why should we take one false extreme over the other in this story?

We can believe both that the Russians were interfering to create instability AND that the US is a global threat to peace AND that the US is the greatest threat to Canada. Why must we assume either side is innocent?

I do not think that Russians intended to help Trump for his sake. Their interest in him was that he is a force of instability - once they realized this he became an objective of their campaign.

This is not a binary issue: the US is terrible. That the Russians are doing something terrible themselves does not change that. It is not even about which is worse -- why does it matter?

Why does it matter which side the Russians were interfering to help? There are well supported claims that it was all sides -- they were promoting division until they realized just how awful he could be and that he could get elected. The fact that the US has a record of being the state with the greatest level of interference outside since the colonial powers occupied countries does not excuse Russia's tactics. Even the fact that Russia may have done this due to previous aggression, does not make what Russia did okay. (Russia was turned into a hostile country when it could have turned the other way by the actions of the US, Europe and NATO -- they could have been welcomed when they were trying to engage instead of being attacked and threatened.)

I know this. But it does not make them not a threat now or excuse what they have done.

The fact that the greatest threat of election interference, and the greatest examples of it come from within, does not make their efforts okay.

I don't really give much of a crap about the US now since I do not consider their electoral process as worth recognition or redeemable, but Canada is also vulnerable. It has to be concerned about threats from within in terms of interference, it has to be concerned about distortions of the process through financing, and it has to be concerned about interference from outside.

Pretending the Russians did not interfere in elections is not good for Canada, just becuase the Russians are not the greatest threat from outside to Canada (that threat comes from the US). The experience with how the Russians did it exposes vulnerabilities. The motive of the Russians is actually less of a threat to Canada than the one from the US. They were seeking advantage from discord. Certainly the Russians could be a threat to Canada in the next election -- even if it is a much smaller threat than that coming from the US.

The threat from the US is also different: The Russians wanted advatnage by creating trouble. The US will likely use some of the same techniques to change the result in order to make the Canadian government more to its liking. What the Russians did may have been dirty but the technique they used against the US, if employed by US actors against Canada, threaten Canada's independence (whatever is left of it).

Pretending this did not happen is not going to help this. Taking sides is not either -- the techniques were cheap and can be used not just by a country whose leadership is hostile, but by any group within the country or outside.

Canada should be terrified about what the US right wing learned about this and how they might employ what they learned against us. So pretending that it was all bullshit is a very bad idea. Don't even think that the Russians invented this -- the US used this type of tacic before, even if they were offended that it was used against them later. The US has more money, a greater interest, and more groups independent of their government capable of doing this to Canada. Plus Canada is an easier target becuase we are a smaller market.

Well said Sean! I find huge agreement with the most of that! I'll only criticize again a little bit because it's a little too lengthy and covers too much ground IMO.

And one small bit where I have to disagree: 

Sean said: "This is not a binary issue: the US is terrible. That the Russians are doing something terrible themselves does not change that. It is not even about which is worse -- why does it matter?"

It matters very much which is worse. The US is far worse and is the cause of all the problems. But I think you had said that in your post, in not exactly the same words.

Quote:

Sean said: (Russia was turned into a hostile country when it could have turned the other way by the actions of the US, Europe and NATO -- they could have been welcomed when they were trying to engage instead of being attacked and threatened.)

Right on the money!

Marcy Wheeler has two articles up today, in which she pieces together bits of evidence which are already public. In particular, she points out some pretty amazing coincidences of timing between the June 9 meeting at Trump Tower, and the planned but never executed trip by Michael Cohen to St. Petersburg, where he was being promised a meeting with Putin, to ask for approval of the Moscow Trump Tower, which would have been a $300Million deal for the Trump Organization. Sure doesn't look like a nothingburger to me.

Russiagate is Finished

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/02/russiagate-is-finished.html

"Finally the conspiracy theory has run out of steam. Russiagate is finished..."

Why the DNC Was Not Hacked By the Russians

https://twitter.com/ElizabethVos/status/1096159928362901505

Former Technical Director NSA, Bill Binney & Larry Johnson former CT and CIA share their advanced expertise on alleged DNC 'hack'.

CrossTalk: Farewell Russiagate (and vid)

https://youtu.be/rLWMyWs6l2w

"The bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee shocked the liberal media world after it admitted there was no  evidence of so-called collusion between Trump world and Russia. So what have the last two years been all about?"