Corbyn’s Labour and the path to power

956 posts / 0 new

Mon, 2019-02-18 11:13

epaulo13

I will be brief about this, since that is all it deserves. The secret seven are finally out, to the surprise of no one.

They call it a split; I call it doing a Jonestown. MPs quitting Labour today have just blown their "nuclear option" prematurely, in the least convincing manner. While damaging to Labour ahead of the Brexit deadline, expeditiously for May, it chiefly harms Corbyn's opponents in Labour.

Allow me to ask the obvious questions. How many trade unions do you think will affiliate to a party founded by Chuka, Luciana, and Leslie, all recently spotted drinking the Anna Soubry kool-aid? How many councillors? How many members? Bear in mind that all of these individuals have awful relations with their local parties: hence their claim to be victims, driven out by the intolerance of yada yada. How many of these individuals would remain MPs after a general election? You could count the number in binary. Look at their breakaway statement. Is that the basis for a major realignment in British politics? Look at the issues they've chosen to split over. Brexit? They've just made it more likely that a version of May's deal will pass. Antisemitic takeover of Labour? Few outside the circumference of Westminster really believe that. Venezuela? Really?

I've said before that this is not 1981. There is no generalised anti-socialist climate in this country at the moment, no deep-rooted backlash against the unions, no pervasive sense that Labour's problems stem from having been too statist, and so on. Actually-existing-Corbynism, more Wilsonite than Bennite, is very popular. Chris Leslie merely seems aloof from reality when he bangs on about 'communism' and 'marxism'. Nor, even if conditions were similar to 1981, do these vain Blairites have the heft or hard-headedness of the old hammers of the Left....

Mon, 2019-02-18 12:50

#353

josh

Yes, this is not 1981. And having a third neo-liberal, and a second neo-con, party will likely benefit Labour by dividing the non-left vote even further.

Mon, 2019-02-18 12:56

(Reply to #353) #354

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

Corbyn is getting what he wants. Turning Labour into an unelectable little sect.

these seven MPs reflect the views of 80% of Labour members on Brexit. By continuing to ignore that 80% Corbyn is turning into Labour’s worst nightmare.

nicky, everyone in the UK knows the Tories can't be made to call a second referendum, so it's pointless to put a fight for what can't happen before all other objectives. Preventing Brexit, even if it were possible, is not more important than unifying the anti-Tory vote. And nobody to Corbyn's right can ever win the votes of people under 35. Besides which, nobody to Corbyn's right in the party disagrees with May or Boris on any major issues-the people who want him out are all pro-austerity and anti-worker, like you are.

Labour would be ten points behind the Tories in the polls if anyone you approved of was leader. The fact that Owen Smith got no crowds at his own attempted leadership rallies proved this.

There's simply no way forward for Labour if it does what you wants, puts the fight for a second referendum-a fight which can't be won-first. As you've been repeatedly shown, leading with a fight against Brexit-when Brexit is a trivial issue ultimately-instantly costs Labour three million votes, and there's nowhere else in the electorate that they'd make that up and then add the additional half-million to a million over that which would be needed to actually win an election.

Putting the Blairite, anti-socialist fight to stop Brexit ahead of everything else is a recipe for certain defeat. But since you're a reactionary, that's actually what you want. You still haven't given up on the pointless fight to put the Third Way crowd, a crowd who have no popularity and no ideas, back in control of Labour.

Mon, 2019-02-18 13:12

#355

Ken Burch

In any case, all of these defectors now have a moral obligation to stand down from their seats and submit themselves to their constituents at by-elections. It's telling, btw, that the pathetic remnants of the LibDems have offered no support to this lot.

Mon, 2019-02-18 14:44

#356

josh

https://mobile.twitter.com/georgegalloway/status/1097442398458781696

Mon, 2019-02-18 17:28

#357

nicky

Ken, you are naive to think that Corbyn is some great inspiration to the youth.

it is the youth who are massively abandoning Labour, according to recent polling. And who are doubtless heavily represented in the 150,000 members Labour has lost in the past few months.

What you ask? Are the evil Blairites behind the youth being disenchanted with Corbyn, as you might like to think.

No, it is because the youth of Britain, more than any other demographic, see their future in Europe. They are disgusted that Corbyn has lied to them and betrayed them on the issue that is most important to them.

Mon, 2019-02-18 17:41

#358

josh

What do we want? To be run by bankers in Brussles! When do we want it? Now!

Mon, 2019-02-18 21:19

(Reply to #358) #359

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

Ken, you are naive to think that Corbyn is some great inspiration to the youth.

it is the youth who are massively abandoning Labour, according to recent polling. And who are doubtless heavily represented in the 150,000 members Labour has lost in the past few months.

What you ask? Are the evil Blairites behind the youth being disenchanted with Corbyn, as you might like to think.

No, it is because the youth of Britain, more than any other demographic, see their future in Europe. They are disgusted that Corbyn has lied to them and betrayed them on the issue that is most important to them.

Corbyn hasn't lied to them. It would be lying for him to put a push for a second referendum-a referendum which cannot happen, because the Tories cannot under any circumstances, be made to allow it to happen-before all else. And it's time to retire the canard that Corbyn could have prevented the victory in the EU ref but somehow refused to do so. In truth, he campaigned for Remain all over the country, as much as any other Labour figure. There was nothing he could have said or done that could possibly have prevented a Leave victory, because it was impossible to get working-class voters in the North of England to vote to keep their country in a system which imposes permanent austerity on them.

What the hell was he supposed to do, nicky? What the hell was he supposed to say? And why should he be putting an unwinnable fight to force a second referendum above any and all other concerns, especially since it is impossible to change the EU in such a way as to get it to permit non-austerity governance.

Mon, 2019-02-18 20:46

#360

nicky

Mon, 2019-02-18 20:47

#361

nicky

Mon, 2019-02-18 21:18

#362

Ken Burch

You've just tried and failed to post two images.

Mon, 2019-02-18 22:03

(Reply to #362) #363

Aristotleded24

nicky wrote:
Corbyn is getting what he wants. Turning Labour into an unelectable little sect.

these seven MPs reflect the views of 80% of Labour members on Brexit. By continuing to ignore that 80% Corbyn is turning into Labour’s worst nightmare.

So you would still rather bash Corbyn than put aside personality politics and discuss actual issues.

Typical right-wing approach. Unsurprising coming from a right-wing poster.

Mon, 2019-02-18 22:17

(Reply to #363) #364

Aristotleded24

cco wrote:
The point, like the last few of these campaigns, is to convince people that Corbyn Must Go™. First it was "He'll lead us to the worst defeat in Labour history!", then it was "His caucus has no confidence in him!", then "He's an anti-Semite!", then "He's a Russian stooge!". Now that none of those took, the Red Tories (and, I suspect, MI5) are back to stamping their feet and declaring, with no proof, that Tony Blair would be wiping the floor with May right now.

This reminds me of a debate between Bill O'Reily and Bill Maher a long time ago. O'Reily made the point that if Bush was that unpopular that he should be ahead in the polls. Maher countered, using the example of Jimmy Carter, to explain that often incumbents retain high levels of support heading into and during a campaign, regardless of what kind of baggage the incumbent government is saddled with.

Tue, 2019-02-19 06:15

#365

nicky

Sorry, I tried to post images of more disastrous polling numbers for Corbyn but I suspect they would have no more impact with some than the blank images.

Ken asks, “What the hell was he supposed to do, nicky?”

well, perhaps follow Labour policy as set down by the conference and press for a new referendum.

let me ask you Ken, “ what the hell is the following Labour supporter to do.”

he is one of the 80%of Labour members who wants to stay in the EU and who supports a”people’svote“

He wants Corbyn to follow the Conference policy for a new referendum

he is one of the 58% of the general population who would now vote to stay in the EU

he is one of the 72 % of the public who disapproves of Corbyn.

he is appalled at Corbyn tolerating anti-semitism in the party.

he believes that Corbyn is leading Labour to a disaster that threatens I it’s very existence.

he wants a party that reflects not just his views on Brexit but respects the democratic processes of its membership.

Tell me Ken, in the current climate what is that voter to do?

Tue, 2019-02-19 08:10

#366

josh

he is appalled at Corbyn tolerating anti-semitism in the party.

Big lie.

Tue, 2019-02-19 12:07

#367

Ken Burch

As to the referendum, it's enough that he has it as an option if Labour comes to power. Since it's impossible to cause a second referendum while the Tories are still governing, and since it has been repeatedly shown that adopting an all out "stop Brexit" position would iustantly cost Labour 3 1/2 million votes. Those who are pushing for an all out stop-Brexit position know this, and your lot is pushing for it for the sole purpose of making sure Labour can't win the next election-you know that, if those 3 1/2 million votes are lost from the 2017 total, there's no area of the spectrum that didn't vote Labour last time which will make up for those votes.

Corbyn also never deserved to be blamed for the Leave victory. It's been repeatedly shown that there was nothing he could have done or said to have prevented that outcome. It made no difference that he acknowledged that there are legitimate problems with what the EU does.

And Corbyn has done everything he could ever have done to fight antisemitism-btw, you've now proven yourself to be a right-winger by your invocation of the now-totally discredited "Labour's a den of antisemitism" canard. Corbyn has always opposed antisemitism; it's just that he rejects the idea that he has to defend what Netanyahu does to prove that he opposes it. Antisemitism is a trivially small problem within Labour and within the UK, there are many other forms of bigotry that are far more prevalent in that country, and it's never antisemitism to support Palestinian self-determination and oppose what the Israeli government does to Palestinians.

Your last post veers very close to incoherent rage. And I've never seen you post anything on this topic that wasn't in exact accordance with the Thatcherite/Blairite "line" on Corbyn, so it is increasingly hard to credit you.

Labour can never win another election under the kind of leader you want-a leader who still believes in austerity, who still wants the unions weak, who still thinks "humanitarian intervention" was ever a real thing, who still thinks the rich will tolerate a society with any empathetic, democratic values.

Tue, 2019-02-19 12:14

#368

Ken Burch

There's a big difference between wanting to stay in the EU, btw, and insisting that the EU issue matters more than actually getting the Tories out of power. Most Labour supporters accept that Corbyn needs to do what he is doing to hold the party together. You just want him to drive 3 1/2 million voters away from Labour because you care more about keeping Jeremy out of 10 Downing Street than you do about anything else. BTW...if you're about to bust out the "if you knew who I was" thing...just TELL US who the hell you are. You obviously don't care about fighting poverty, bringing down the bosses and ending war.

Tue, 2019-02-19 12:36

#369

epaulo13

Labour’s volunteer army would grow in a snap election, Momentum poll finds

The size of Labour’s volunteer base would grow if a snap general election were called, according to a Momentum poll of over 1,500 party members.

Asked about their campaigning activities in 2017, 64% of respondents confirmed they went canvassing during the last snap election.

But a greater proportion – 71% of those who answered – said they would canvass if an election were held this year, while a further 17% indicated that they would consider doing so.

The left-wing group, which grew out of Jeremy Corbyn’s first leadership campaign and now has over 40,000 members itself, suggested the research showed there could be a 38% increase in the number of Labour volunteers for a 2019 campaign.

quote:

A Momentum source pointed out that the findings have produced evidence opposing claims that Labour members are disillusioned and leaving the party over its position on Brexit.

Tue, 2019-02-19 12:43

#370

epaulo13

Local Labour parties tell “Independent Group” MPs to stand down

Local Labour Parties in the constituencies of MPs who have quit the party to form “The Independence Group” are calling on their representatives to stand down and allow by-elections to take place.

The seven splitters have only resigned from the Labour Party, not as MPs, which means their constituents won’t have the opportunity to vote for a Labour candidate until the next general election.

John McDonnell has already said that the “honourable thing for them to do now is to stand down and fight by-elections back in their constituencies”.

Luciana Berger‘s CLP, Liverpool Wavertree, tweeted a statement: “We are extremely disappointed that Luciana Berger has made the decision to resign from the Labour Party. 35,000 people in Wavertree voted for the Labour manifesto in 2017, yet they are no longer represented by a Labour MP.

“We call on Luciana Berger to immediately resign the seat, to give the people of Wavertree the opportunity to decide who represents them in parliament.”

The chair of Chuka Umunna‘s CLP, Joel Bodmer, has sent an email to all local Labour members stating: “I am… writing to Chuka today, thanking him for all his work as our Labour MP, and asking him to immediately call a by-election, to allow the people of Streatham to have their say.”

Bodmer is not regarded as a Corbynite, but instead as a “stay and fight” activist.

Tue, 2019-02-19 13:30

#371

nicky

ken very quaintly says that I take " the Thatcherite/Blairite "line" on Corbyn"

I prefer to think I take the line of the 80% of Labour MPs who voted non-confidnce in him, or the 80% of Labour members who oppose Brexit, or the 72% of the British piblic who think he is a bad leader.

Who would have thought that the "Thatcherite/Blairite "line" on Corbyn" was so universal.

Tue, 2019-02-19 13:45

(Reply to #371) #372

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

ken very quaintly says that I take " the Thatcherite/Blairite "line" on Corbyn"

I prefer to think I take the line of the 80% of Labour MPs who voted non-confidnce in him, or the 80% of Labour members who oppose Brexit, or the 72% of the British piblic who think he is a bad leader.

Who would have thought that the "Thatcherite/Blairite "line" on Corbyn" was so universal.

Corbyn's landslide re-election victory in 2016 put the meaningless, non-binding "no-confidence motion" to rest. The "no-confidence motion" NEVER obligated Corbyn to simply give-up the leadership and let the MPs rig a succession ballot to include only non-left wing candidates, as you would have preferred. And the plain and simple fact is, there is no potential alternative figure in the PLP, at least none other than an actual left-winger, who could ever get the party into a lead in the polls or achieve any personal popularity.

Tue, 2019-02-19 13:47

#373

Ken Burch

And those who oppose Brexit in the party are NOT demanding that Corbyn put an unwinnable fight for a second referendum ahead of every other issue. Brexit is not THAT freaking important-it doesn't outweigh creating a humane, democratic, egalitarian future for the people of the UK. It's not worth costing the party 3 1/2 million votes at a general election, as a post upthread proved it would.

Tue, 2019-02-19 13:57

#374

josh

The turncoats won't stand in a byelection because they know they'd lose.

Tue, 2019-02-19 14:01

(Reply to #374) #375

josh

Ken Burch wrote:

And those who oppose Brexit in the party are NOT demanding that Corbyn put an unwinnable fight for a second referendum ahead of every other issue. Brexit is not THAT freaking important-it doesn't outweigh creating a humane, democratic, egalitarian future for the people of the UK. It's not worth costing the party 3 1/2 million votes at a general election, as a post upthread proved it would.

Agree. But that won't stop the Blairites from doing everything in their power to sabotage the party.

Tue, 2019-02-19 15:48

(Reply to #375) #376

Ken Burch

josh wrote:

The turncoats won't stand in a byelection because they know they'd lose.

It'll be interesting to see if May gives any of the peerages at the next Honours List. They must know they've just ended their careers in electoral politics.

Tue, 2019-02-19 16:21

#377

nicky

Ken, polls in fact show that Brexit is judged by a huge majority of the British public as the most important issue, even if you disagree

Tue, 2019-02-19 16:32

(Reply to #377) #378

Sean in Ottawa

nicky wrote:

Ken, polls in fact show that Brexit is judged by a huge majority of the British public as the most important issue, even if you disagree

This means that the breakaway 7 might be doing what they need to do and be at less electoral risk for doing this than if they had not stood up.

Again it does not matter what your position is - it matters what the constituency thinks.

Tue, 2019-02-19 23:31

(Reply to #378) #379

Aristotleded24

nicky wrote:
No, it is because the youth of Britain, more than any other demographic, see their future in Europe. They are disgusted that Corbyn has lied to them and betrayed them on the issue that is most important to them.

Did it ever occur to you that the collapsing economy may have left some of those youth so poor, broke, and living paycheque-to-paycheque that the idea of actually travelling to Europe is a pipe dream that takes a back seat to daily survival?

Wed, 2019-02-20 06:12

#380

NDPP

Make Deserters Face the Ballot Box, Say Voters

https://twitter.com/M_Star_Online/status/1097928462814326785

"Thousands challenge MPs who quit party to fight for their jobs in by-election..."

The Artist Taxi Driver (and vid)

"The funny tinge group."

https://youtu.be/veq4OMG_ST8

Wed, 2019-02-20 08:09

#381

nicky

New Times YouGov poll with TIG as an option has LAB down to 26% CON 38 LAB 26 TIG 14

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/20/tory-mps-defect-independent-group-soubry-allen-wollaston

Wed, 2019-02-20 08:13

#382

josh

Ipsos is the most pro-Tory pollster, but not all that surprising. The turncoats’ goal is to destroy the Labour Party, and ensure that the Conservatives win. But their debut pails in comparison to the Gang of Four’s Social Democrats in 1981. Where they were leading for a while in the polls.

Wed, 2019-02-20 12:16

#383

nicky

Josh, do you think Corbyn bears any of the blame for Labour’s malaise?

Wed, 2019-02-20 12:54

(Reply to #383) #384

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

Josh, do you think Corbyn bears any of the blame for Labour’s malaise?

The man has been under attack from a group of his own MPs for the whole time he's been leader-attack he's done nothing to deserve. That's obviously going to hurt.

It's not as though everything would be fine if only someone from the right wing of the party was leading. And nothing would be different if Corbyn were leading with an unwinnable fight for a second referendum.

Wed, 2019-02-20 13:23

(Reply to #384) #385

josh

nicky wrote:

Josh, do you think Corbyn bears any of the blame for Labour’s malaise?

No. He’s been under merciless attack from large segments of the PLP and the media from the day he was elected.

Wed, 2019-02-20 13:36

(Reply to #385) #386

Ken Burch

josh wrote:

nicky wrote:

Josh, do you think Corbyn bears any of the blame for Labour’s malaise?

No. He’s been under merciless attack from large segments of the PLP and the media from the day he was elected.

It all goes back to the arrogance in the implacable Blairite hostility to the idea that the people who work for and elect Labour government should have an actual say in what the party stands for...and to the arrogance Blairite refusal to accept that Jeremy has twice won the leadership by landslide margins and thus represents what most of the people who support Labour actually WANT.

People like those nicky is fighting for here still haven't given up on restoring the old state of affairs in which the hard-right wing of the party-many of whom had been in the SDP in the Eighties, working solely in that era to make sure that Margaret Thatcher could never be beaten at a general election-would be treated as Labour's natural ruling class, entitled to make all decisions, choose nearly all candidates, and sneer down at the working-class left-wing majority the party with corrosive, negating contempt-all the while demanding that that same powerless majority within the party give Labour their all-out support at elections.

It was this approach which had come close to wiping Labour out in local government in the UK-a wipeout which would have meant that future Labour candidates would come solely from the corporate world-and had cost it millions of votes at the polls in 2005, 2010, and 2015.

This is fine for the anti-Corbynites, because politics for them is simply about setting themselves up for massive salaries at no-show jobs as repayment for the war they fought against working people, the poor, and all those who campaign for peace, justice and a decent world.

Wed, 2019-02-20 16:05

#387

epaulo13

How We Answered the Lies

It was only a matter of time: the US right has decided that the best way to attack rising socialist forces is to accuse them of antisemitism. In the space of a week, Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez was pilloried for exchanging a friendly phone call with the British Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, then Ilhan Omar faced a welter of abuse for pointing out the role the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) plays in Washington politics.

The link between Corbyn and AOC gives the game away: the inspiration clearly comes from a similar campaign to brand the Labour left in Britain as being riddled with antisemitism from top to bottom. And there’s plenty for US socialists to learn from the British experience.

Don’t believe everything you read.

The articles attacking AOC for her chat with Corbyn took it for granted that the Labour leader was an antisemite, as if this was a well-established fact. There’s a circular logic at work here: it’s as if there couldn’t have been so many stories in the media accusing Corbyn of antisemitism if there wasn’t some truth behind it.

1. Let’s take one of those stories, from the New York Times, which published an account of the 2017 Labour Party conference by Howard Jacobson. According to Jacobson, “a motion to question the truth of the Holocaust was proposed” from the conference floor. This was a blatant falsehood — there was no such motion — but the NYT’s fact-checkers allowed Jacobson to get away with it, and the article remains uncorrected on their website to this day.

Anyone who read Jacobson’s article and believed it to be accurate would naturally have found it horrifying. If a motion supporting Holocaust denial could make it onto the conference agenda, that wouldn’t just condemn the branch proposing it. What kind of party would even allow such a motion to be discussed?

Now imagine the same kind of casual mendacity repeated over and over again for several years, filling up every available space in the British media. Newspapers with a liberal reputation, like the Guardian, have often been the worst offenders.

So if you want to keep your wits about you in this debate, never assume something must be true because it appears in print. Distrust all media outlets, including the ones that like to cultivate a progressive image, and research the claims being made. Time and time again, you’ll find those claims to be false or grossly exaggerated.

Wed, 2019-02-20 17:14

#388

epaulo13

An empowered mass movement will help Labour rebuild Britain

Whether rescuing crumbling public services from the ravages of austerity or mounting serious resistance to the global rise of the right and climate change, today’s challenges demand that we build a powerful, purposeful, dynamic movement. Rooted in socialism, solidarity and internationalism, such a movement is the only meaningful response to the political alienation that so many felt as they cast their EU referendum votes over two long years ago.

In 2017, Labour’s empowering campaigning smashed through politics as a public school debating chamber and relocated real discussions about real lives in communities across the country. Millions of people were energised by principles, vision and values....

Wed, 2019-02-20 18:50

#389

nicky

New polling conducted yesterday though by Survation for the Daily Mail suggests that it is Labour who should be most worried by the new party’s success. When asked in the survey who they would vote for if there was a general election tomorrow, 8 per cent of the respondents opted for ‘A new centrist party opposed to Brexit’ if one existed. If these results materialised in a general election, this would make the Independence Group the third largest party, behind the Conservatives on 39 per cent and Labour on 34 per cent. Revealingly, the majority of the new party’s vote share has come from Labour, causing the party to fall into second place, five points behind the Conservative Party.

Even more worryingly for Labour, when the respondents were asked who they thought best represents the people of Britain, Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour or this new group of independent MPs, 23 per cent opted for Labour, and 40 per cent the new group.

Wed, 2019-02-20 19:08

(Reply to #389) #390

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

New polling conducted yesterday though by Survation for the Daily Mail suggests that it is Labour who should be most worried by the new party’s success. When asked in the survey who they would vote for if there was a general election tomorrow, 8 per cent of the respondents opted for ‘A new centrist party opposed to Brexit’ if one existed. If these results materialised in a general election, this would make the Independence Group the third largest party, behind the Conservatives on 39 per cent and Labour on 34 per cent. Revealingly, the majority of the new party’s vote share has come from Labour, causing the party to fall into second place, five points behind the Conservative Party.

Even more worryingly for Labour, when the respondents were asked who they thought best represents the people of Britain, Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour or this new group of independent MPs, 23 per cent opted for Labour, and 40 per cent the new group.

You never wanted Labour to win. You just wanted New Labour back-even though the people who support the party-unlike you-want every part of the militarist, pro-austerity New Labour agenda scrapped. If you'd actually wanted the Tories beaten, you'd have admitted that the 2017 election result meant that the war against Corbyn should end. And you know full well that Corbyn leading with the hopeless fight to for a second referendum wouldn't have stopped the defection of the Iggies.

Wed, 2019-02-20 20:08

#391

nicky

Ken, I do want Labour to win.

Even though Corbyn did unexoectedly well in 2017, he did lose. Since that time his approval has dropped like a stone and he is an a handicap to Labour's success. The poll I just posted shows the same thing that many others show - that Corbyn runs well behind his party.

the question you should be asking, Ken, is whether Corbyn wants Labour to win. If he did he would recognize how unelectable he has made Labour and step aside as leader.

I eagerly await your reply to see how much you abuse me instead of responding to my arguments.

Wed, 2019-02-20 20:16

(Reply to #391) #392

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

Ken, I do want Labour to win.

Even though Corbyn did unexoectedly well in 2017, he did lose. Since that time his approval has dropped like a stone and he is an a handicap to Labour's success. The poll I just posted shows the same thing that many others show - that Corbyn runs well behind his party.

the question you should be asking, Ken, is whether Corbyn wants Labour to win. If he did he would recognize how unelectable he has made Labour and step aside as leader.

I eagerly await your reply to see how much you abuse me instead of responding to my arguments.

If you wanted Labour to win, you wouldn't be pushing to get rid of the only leader who can get the votes of the young. No "moderate" leader will ever win the votes of people under 40 again, and certainly not any who puts the unwinnable fight for a second referendum ahead of the fight to beat the Tories and build socialism.

There simply isn't any good alternative figure as leader, other than maybe John McDonnell. It certainly goes without saying that none of those who falsely accused Jeremy of antisemitism are going to fight against austerity and perpetual war against Arabs and Muslims.

Clearly, you'd prefer the program of the IG-a "group" that agrees with the Tories on all major issues.

It's not abuse to point out that your vendetta against Corbyn was totally discredited by the 2017 result, and that that result proved that Corbyn would have led Labour to victory if only the Blairites hadn't keep trying to remove him as leader DURING the 2017 election, at a time when they knew a leadership change was impossible and at a time when they knew that nobody they could put in in Jeremy's place could ever inspire popular enthusiasm from anyone.

And it's not abuse to point out that it was creepy as hell that you stalked me over in the Outremont thread, a thread that has nothing to do with this discussion.

The fact is, you don't care about working-class voters or the poor, because if you did you wouldn't be working to undermine the only person who can possibly defeat the party that is immiserating the poor in Britain.

Wed, 2019-02-20 20:21

#393

Ken Burch

Why DO you think you're entitled to talk down to everyone who disagrees with you here anyway, nicky? Or to simply post drive-bys and refuse to engage anything any actual argument anyone here makes? I seriously doubt you have any claim to personal or intellectual superiority, or superiority of political instincts, than any of the rest of us.
It wouldn't be worth it to have Labour win with a leader you'd support, because obviously no one you would support would be anti-austerity or antiwar. There simply isn't anybody who even exists in the PLP that you would APPROVE who is like that. To be a Labour moderate is to give up on changing anything important.

Wed, 2019-02-20 20:20

(Reply to #393) #394

Aristotleded24

nicky wrote:
Ken, I do want Labour to win.

Even though Corbyn did unexoectedly well in 2017, he did lose.

Do you think Theresa May called the snap election in 2017 hoping to lose her majority government? You must not have been following the same campaign as the rest of us. The conventional wisdom going into that campaign at the time was that the Conservatives would win a massive majority and that would be the end of Corbyn's leadership and the Labour Party. Corbyn exceeded expectations.

nicky wrote:
I eagerly await your reply to see how much you abuse me instead of responding to my arguments.

How about you try engaging the arguments people have put forward in this thread? There are other issues facing the British public besides Brexit. Do you have an opinion about that? How about issues like poverty, climate change, and war?

Wed, 2019-02-20 20:28

#395

josh

Let’s not forget how after the 2017 election, Nicky virtually disappeared from here. I don’t know whether it was out of disappointment or out of embarrassment. Now he’s back spewing the same anti-Corbynism.

Wed, 2019-02-20 23:18

#396

Aristotleded24

Ash Sakar takes on splitters

Thu, 2019-02-21 00:20

(Reply to #396) #397

JKR

Aristotleded24 wrote:

...There are other issues facing the British public besides Brexit....

It seems to me that Brexit is the biggest political event for the UK since WW2. I think it is even capable of realigning UK politics in much the same way as WW1 did.

Thu, 2019-02-21 06:39

#398

NDPP

"Tony Blair tipped to join new Independent Blairite Group..."

https://twitter.com/SocialistVoice/status/1098350685102460930

Labour Peers Could Leave Over Anti-Semitism

https://twitter.com/damian_from/status/1098341340180566016

"This article proves how deeply embedded support of racist [Israeli] apartheid has become in UK Labour."

"A lie must be called a lie, a liar a liar. The politics of apologia, appeasement concession and surrender have failed over three years of political haemorrage. There is no 'Labour anti-Semitism crisis', opposition to Israel is not anti-Semitism, Corbyn is not an anti-Semite."

https://twitter.com/georgegalloway/status/1098263027676336128

"Anti-Semitism', We always use it..."

https://youtu.be/7BEULD6YHsc

The problem in UK, is the same as in USA and Canada. The problem is Israel and its presence in our politics. And pretending it isn't. Until Corbyn decides to declare his enemy and defeat it, the sabotage will continue.