Easy to be pro-China here. Enough already!

voice of the damned wrote:

I don't care what anyone wants to  say for or against China, but can't these topics all be kept to one thread, maybe two, tops?

Another day, another China thread. Enough already!

So North Report where are you and your ancestors from and when are you going back.

I can see you believe in the Canadian Charter right to Freedom of Expression except for people who are pro-China. Interesting take on freedom and democracy.

North, before you post more about China, please understand a few things:

1) One of the things Chinese people, in and out of government, are most touchy about is the legacy of Western imperialism and meddling in China, and the arrogant Western assumption that the political and economic leaders of "the West"-as well as those who identify with their viewpoint, such as yourself- is entitled to lecture China about democracy and human rights and to do so from a standpoint of inherent moral superiority.  This is why it is imperative to reject the idea that "the West" is the gold standard on any of those issues, and to avoid, if one is to support human rights and democratization campaigns on the terms of the people of those countries who start them, ever endorsing ANY Western efforts to subvert or co-op oppositional movements for "the West's" own purposes.  ALL existing states need radical social, political, and econoimc change, not China and Russia alone with "the West" being presented as the world's "betters".  When people in "the West" single out China and Russia on this, we can actually have the effect of undermining dissidents in those countries, and that is something we should never, under any circumstances do.  If people in "the West" give the Chinese and Russian governments the chance to label dissidents as lackeys of Western imperialism, we are essentially signing their death warrants.

2) If you are going to support democratization in China or Russia-both of which are legitimate causes ot support, if supported on the terms of the Chinese or Russian democracy movement organizers and not on anyone else's terms-you need to be speaking out, with equal passion and relentlessness, for radical change in "the West".  I thought I had been doing that, but it seems that I actually hadn't, and I don't want you to repeat my mistakes on that.   "The West"  needs as much change as anyplace else, after all.

3) Whatever degree of freedom and democracy that exists in any Western society exists, not out of anything intrinsic to "the West", but was forced ON the West from below, by heroic dissenters and courageous activist movements which were vilified as a threat to the existing order in every country where they functioned.  If there is any freedom in "the West", it is in SPITE of its leaders and its existing political, social, and economic structures, and whatever freedoms we thought we could count on in "the West" are now under moral threat from racism, fascism, nationalism, and the social traumas caused by unrelenting economic austerity.   This is another reason that, while it is legitimate to carefully support democracy activists on their own term, it is necessary to be wise and tactful in how that is done.

Well said on post 33 Ken, especially agree with point 3.

Ken Burch wrote:

2) If you are going to support democratization in China or Russia-both of which are legitimate causes ot support, if supported on the terms of the Chinese or Russian democracy movement organizers and not on anyone else's terms-you need to be speaking out, with equal passion and relentlessness, for radical change in "the West".

3) Whatever degree of freedom and democracy that exists in any Western society exists, not out of anything intrinsic to "the West", but was forced ON the West from below, by heroic dissenters and courageous activist movements which were vilified as a threat to the existing order in every country where they functioned.  If there is any freedom in "the West", it is in SPITE of its leaders and its existing political, social, and economic structures, and whatever freedoms we thought we could count on in "the West" are now under moral threat from racism, fascism, nationalism, and the social traumas caused by unrelenting economic austerity.   This is another reason that, while it is legitimate to carefully support democracy activists on their own term, it is necessary to be wise and tactful in how that is done.

Thanks Ken, well said.

Unionist wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

1) One of the things Chinese people, in and out of government, are most touchy about is the legacy of Western imperialism and meddling in China, and the arrogant Western assumption that the political and economic leaders of "the West"-as well as those who identify with their viewpoint, such as yourself- is entitled to lecture China about democracy and human rights and to do so from a standpoint of inherent moral superiority.  This is why it is imperative to reject the idea that "the West" is the gold standard on any of those issues, and to avoid, if one is to support human rights and democratization campaigns on the terms of the people of those countries who start them, ever endorsing ANY Western efforts to subvert or co-op oppositional movements for "the West's" own purposes.  ALL existing states need radical social, political, and econoimc change, not China and Russia alone with "the West" being presented as the world's "betters".  When people in "the West" single out China and Russia on this, we can actually have the effect of undermining dissidents in those countries, and that is something we should never, under any circumstances do.  If people in "the West" give the Chinese and Russian governments the chance to label dissidents as lackeys of Western imperialism, we are essentially signing their death warrants.

2) If you are going to support democratization in China or Russia-both of which are legitimate causes ot support, if supported on the terms of the Chinese or Russian democracy movement organizers and not on anyone else's terms-you need to be speaking out, with equal passion and relentlessness, for radical change in "the West".  I thought I had been doing that, but it seems that I actually hadn't, and I don't want you to repeat my mistakes on that.   "The West"  needs as much change as anyplace else, after all.

3) Whatever degree of freedom and democracy that exists in any Western society exists, not out of anything intrinsic to "the West", but was forced ON the West from below, by heroic dissenters and courageous activist movements which were vilified as a threat to the existing order in every country where they functioned.  If there is any freedom in "the West", it is in SPITE of its leaders and its existing political, social, and economic structures, and whatever freedoms we thought we could count on in "the West" are now under moral threat from racism, fascism, nationalism, and the social traumas caused by unrelenting economic austerity.   This is another reason that, while it is legitimate to carefully support democracy activists on their own term, it is necessary to be wise and tactful in how that is done.

You nailed it, my friend. Thank you.

You are welcome.  This is what I have always believed on these issues.  My assumption had been that people knew my views well enough to be aware of that, but apparently I hadn't communicated all of this well enough.  Apologies for not having expressed all of that fully enough in the past.

The positions I take on this are reflective of my presence on the internationalist, anti-authoritarian libertarian socialist left-it's horrifying that I expressed myself unclearly enough to make anyone think that I've somehow turned into a right-wing "anticommunist" social democrat at this stage of my life.

Red Winnipeg wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

So North Report where are you and your ancestors from and when are you going back.

I can see you believe in the Canadian Charter right to Freedom of Expression except for people who are pro-China. Interesting take on freedom and democracy.

Wait. You are PRO-China??

I am a deep sleeper agent for the CPC. I spent 17 years on this board waiting for them to activate me and finally the moment has come.

"Too little, to late" I really hope they don't go down that rabbit hole... the military will fuck them up in the end if they keep at it.