Is the NDP dive deliberate? (Sid Ryan)

81 posts / 0 new

Thu, 2019-08-29 13:52

Pondering

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/08/29/labour-leader-sid-ryan-quits-campaign-for-ontario-ndp-nomination/

Longtime labour leader Sid Ryan is dropping out of the NDP nomination race in Oshawa, Ont., because he says the party hasn’t approved his candidacy in time to have a fair fight.

In a long post on Facebook, the former president of the Ontario Federation of Labour says “the entire process is a shambles” and complains NDP headquarters has “failed miserably to deliver on the basic principles of openness, fairness and democracy.”

He says he submitted his nomination papers in plenty of time, but hasn’t heard whether the party considers him an acceptable candidate for a nomination vote scheduled for Sept. 6.

He says there now isn’t enough time for him and other candidates to campaign for support from New Democrats in Oshawa.

Ryan has run for the New Democrats five times, in provincial and federal elections, coming a close second several times.

On Facebook, he says he’d reconsider withdrawing if the party assures a “fair process” where all candidates can campaign for members’ votes.

When Dion tried to make a deal with Layton the powers that be within the Liberal party deliberately sabotaged his interview with the CBC or CTV, I forget which. Probably amongst the worst betrayals of the Canadian people.

I am wondering if there are forces within the NDP that want Singh to fail ASAP so he can be replaced as Dion was. The buck stops at the leader's desk but everything isn't under their control.

At the same time Singh has a chance to reverse this particular error. He needs to phone Sid Ryan ASAP and tell him the problem is being addressed immediately. Anything else dooms the party.

Thu, 2019-08-29 14:44

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

RIP NDP. You're toast

Thu, 2019-08-29 19:48

brookmere

I am wondering if there are forces within the NDP that want Singh to fail

Sure - pretty much everyone in Saskatchewan for example. I don't think they have much say over federal nominations though.

Here's a fact for you - Sid Ryan supported Niki Ashton for leader. Also, Niki's father lost a rather nasty provincial leadership contest to Waub Kinew, whom Singh describes as his "friend and brother", and Niki directly criticised Singh for his support.

You think this job on Ryan is happening behind Singh's back? I doubt it.

Thu, 2019-08-29 19:54

WWWTT

I know for a fact that Sid has been on at least one committee to search for candidates for the ONDP. Ironically, Adam Giambrone was also on the same committee!

Adam is a fucking dick head! As far as I'm concerned, that dirt bag deserves nothing but failure for his lack of creative vision and arogance. I can see Adam being best buds with Justin.

Anyways, if Sid feels something isn't right, I'll take his word for it! I hope that Jag can straighten this out.

Thu, 2019-08-29 20:30

JeffWells

I don't believe there is an orchestrated campaign to tank the NDP, I think it just appears that way because the NDP has become just that horrible.

Think of what it's become, as we're at THE historical moment when most Canadians think favourably of socialism, and socialism is what the moment demands.

The executive and leadership have earned this.

Thu, 2019-08-29 22:05

Debater

Isn't Sid Ryan a bit of a loose canon sometimes?

He has been a strong speaker in the past (and has a great Irish accent to go along with it).

But is the NDP perhaps better off with a calmer candidate for Oshawa?

Thu, 2019-08-29 22:30

(Reply to #6) #7

kropotkin1951

JeffWells wrote:

I don't believe there is an orchestrated campaign to tank the NDP, I think it just appears that way because the NDP has become just that horrible.

Think of what it's become, as we're at THE historical moment when most Canadians think favourably of socialism, and socialism is what the moment demands.

The executive and leadership have earned this.

The NDP "insiders" have over and over again been proven wrong when they have abandoned the principles that conventions passed. In the '90's they decided nobody wanted to talk about electoral reform so that fundamental part of the platform was downplayed just as the public woke up to the problems with our confederation. The Reform reaped that justifiable backlash against the system even attracting NDP voters.

Then just as a new generation is starting to wake up to the realities of brutal capitalism Jack and Tom go to the convention after the historic breakthrough and try to take socialism out of the constitution and run the next campaign as a left liberal party indistinguishable from the Liberal Red Book.

In both of those cases the party went from historic highs to abysmal failure. After the first crash the only thing that kept the NDP brand alive were BC MP's like Svend and Libby.

Fri, 2019-08-30 07:39

cco

Debater wrote:

Isn't Sid Ryan a bit of a loose canon sometimes?

He has been a strong speaker in the past (and has a great Irish accent to go along with it).

But is the NDP perhaps better off with a calmer candidate for Oshawa?

The "polished iron-fisted leader with the caucus of trained seals" strategy has certainly been working for the NDP, hasn't it?

Fri, 2019-08-30 08:23

josh

I am wondering if there are forces within the NDP that want Singh to fail

He's doing a good job of it on his own.

Fri, 2019-08-30 09:50

(Reply to #9) #10

brookmere

Debater wrote:
But is the NDP perhaps better off with a calmer candidate for Oshawa?

Perhaps, but isn't the local membership supposed to make that decision? What does that "D" stand for?

Fri, 2019-08-30 09:58

#11

Mighty Middle

The NDP just sent Sid Ryan a letter esentially saying "Don't let the door hit you on the way out" (which he is sharing on his facebook) - thoughout this whole ordeal, Sid Ryan still has not heard a single word directly from Jagmeet Singh

https://www.facebook.com/sid.ryan.1257/posts/121693459191741

Fri, 2019-08-30 10:00

(Reply to #11) #12

Mighty Middle

WWWTT wrote:

I can see Adam being best buds with Justin.

Adam has gone on TV multiple times esentially saying Justin Trudeau is an airhead - in fact he even said he is more qualified to be Prime Minister than Justin!

Fri, 2019-08-30 10:31

(Reply to #12) #13

R.E.Wood

Mighty Middle wrote:

The NDP just sent Sid Ryan a letter esentially saying "Don't let the door hit you on the way out" (which he is sharing on his facebook) - thoughout this whole ordeal, Sid Ryan still has not heard a single word directly from Jagmeet Singh

https://www.facebook.com/sid.ryan.1257/posts/121693459191741

It's transparent and dispicable behavior from Singh and the federal executive. Sid Ryan is right - they're dragging their feet vetting certain candidates in order to ensure their "chosen" candidate wins the nomination. Singh's responsible behind-the-scenes for this specific case, I have no doubt. It's petty political payback. Yet another reason reinforcing my decision to not vote NDP as long as Singh is leader.

Fri, 2019-08-30 12:12

#14

swallow

A bureaucrat's response. I imagine the NDP is the only party that follows its own nomination rules to the letter.

Fri, 2019-08-30 14:31

#15

NDPP

NDP : "A party of the working class, led by the middle class, in the interest of the ruling class." Fuck the No Difference Party sellouts Sid. Start a real people's party.

Fri, 2019-08-30 17:01

#16

Mighty Middle

Erin Weir was just on CTV News and said the NDP is using the vetting process to block and impede potential candidates from seeking nominations, which is denying the grassroots of their democratic say on who they want representing them in their ridings.

Fri, 2019-08-30 17:38

#17

NDPP

Alas a necessary process to screen out the 'antisemites' who support BDS.

Fri, 2019-08-30 17:55

(Reply to #17) #18

WWWTT

Mighty Middle wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

I can see Adam being best buds with Justin.

Adam has gone on TV multiple times esentially saying Justin Trudeau is an airhead - in fact he even said he is more qualified to be Prime Minister than Justin!

Thanks for backing up my comment :)

Fri, 2019-08-30 18:41

#19

Mighty Middle

Janet-Lynne Durnford put her name forward to carry the party banner in Simcoe North all the way back in May, but as Labour Day weekend approaches her candidacy had still not been approved. She is the only candidate to contest the nomination, and has now withdrwan her candidacy. So now NO ONE is running for the nomination in Simcoe North for the NDP

http://theleftchapter.blogspot.com/2019/08/the-ndps-centralized-culture-...

Fri, 2019-08-30 19:16

#20

Debater

Yes, the NDP is very far behind on candidate selection this year.

David Akin posted this graphic yesterday, which was retweeted by Chantal Hebert & other journalists:

https://twitter.com/davidakin/status/1167259344834105350

Fri, 2019-08-30 19:27

(Reply to #20) #21

Wilf Day

kropotkin1951 wrote:
In the '90's they decided nobody wanted to talk about electoral reform so that fundamental part of the platform was downplayed just as the public woke up to the problems with our confederation. The Reform reaped that justifiable backlash against the system even attracting NDP voters.

Fallacy. PR was not in the NDP policy in the '90s.
The 2001 convention started the process, and the PR committee brought a resolution for MMP to the 2003 convention which was debated by the full convention (while electing Jack leader) which added a 5% threshold and approved the policy. It has been reconfirmed ever since.

Fri, 2019-08-30 19:51

(Reply to #21) #22

Aristotleded24

Debater wrote:
Yes, the NDP is very far behind on candidate selection this year.

David Akin posted this graphic yesterday, which was retweeted by Chantal Hebert & other journalists:

https://twitter.com/davidakin/status/1167259344834105350

How the heck has the NDP nominated fewer candidates than 2 parties without official party status, one of which is led by an alt-right racist whom nobody actually likes?

Fri, 2019-08-30 20:01

#23

Debater

Well, part of the problem is that the NDP has no candidates at all in New Brunswick or PEI, so that's one of the factors keeping them behind:

https://twitter.com/davidakin/status/1167260227537973250

Fri, 2019-08-30 20:02

(Reply to #23) #24

Aristotleded24

Debater wrote:
Well, part of the problem is that the NDP has no candidates at all in New Brunswick or PEI, so that's one of the factors keeping them behind:

https://twitter.com/davidakin/status/1167260227537973250

That makes sense intellectually, but on a different level, it still feels like WTF?

Fri, 2019-08-30 20:32

(Reply to #24) #25

kropotkin1951

Wilf Day wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:
In the '90's they decided nobody wanted to talk about electoral reform so that fundamental part of the platform was downplayed just as the public woke up to the problems with our confederation. The Reform reaped that justifiable backlash against the system even attracting NDP voters.

Fallacy. PR was not in the NDP policy in the '90s.
The 2001 convention started the process, and the PR committee brought a resolution for MMP to the 2003 convention which was debated by the full convention (while electing Jack leader) which added a 5% threshold and approved the policy. It has been reconfirmed ever since.

Excuse me I did not mention PR. The NDP ran on abolishing the Senate, I am sorry that I was not specific enough for you. The insiders in Ontario determined that the NDP would advocate in support of the Constitutional changes. The people of BC like the people of Quebec looked closely at the deal and did not accept the NDP position that a mediocre deal was better than no deal at all.

Preston then ran on the West wants in and in BC swept away Bulroney's MP's and many NDP MP's as well.

Fri, 2019-08-30 20:34

#26

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

I agree that the NDP have the least number of candidates nominated is a true WTF. Also, Sid Ryan got screwed by the NDP backroom decision makers. He is pretty much one of a handful of NDP members who are household names. Another head-scratching WTF.

Fri, 2019-08-30 21:21

(Reply to #26) #27

brookmere

Aristotleded24 wrote:
How the heck has the NDP nominated fewer candidates than 2 parties without official party status, one of which is led by an alt-right racist whom nobody actually likes?

Bernier and May simply pick paper candidates who often don't live in the ridings where they are running, which in turn often don't have local associations (e.g. May's daughter running in Quebec previously). The more established parties at least have to go through the appearance of a process involving the local association.

Fri, 2019-08-30 21:21

#28

josh

Nikki Ashton, or whoever takes over next year, is going have a big clean up job to do.

Fri, 2019-08-30 23:16

#29

quizzical

where's Ann McGrath, Jordan Reid and Ryan Sudds in all this?

they all need kicking to the curb.

Sat, 2019-08-31 07:12

(Reply to #29) #30

Debater

brookmere wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:
How the heck has the NDP nominated fewer candidates than 2 parties without official party status, one of which is led by an alt-right racist whom nobody actually likes?

Bernier and May simply pick paper candidates who often don't live in the ridings where they are running, which in turn often don't have local associations (e.g. May's daughter running in Quebec previously). The more established parties at least have to go through the appearance of a process involving the local association.

That's true. The Greens and the People's Party have much more flexibility with their candidates because virtually none of them will get elected and some of them have been moved about the board already.

Latest example: when Pierre Nantel left the NDP and joined the Greens to become the candidate for Longueuil-Saint Hubert, the existing Green candidate in the riding, Casandra Poitras, was bumped over into Longueuil-Charles LeMoyne.

Sat, 2019-08-31 08:05

#31

Mighty Middle

Alexander Boulerice told the Quebec media that the NDP will have nominated at least 2/3rd of their candidates in Quebec

AFTER the writ is dropped in September.

Speaking about Anne McGrath, she was interviewed on CTV and downplayed any worry about candidates NOT being nominated. Pointing to the 2011 campaign, that when a "wave" happens, voters don't look at the local candidate, but the party and the leader.

Sat, 2019-08-31 15:37

#32

R.E.Wood

Singh is also not concerned about the lack of nominated candidates: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jagmeet-singh-burnaby-south-fall-electi...

Sat, 2019-08-31 15:57

#33

Misfit

This is embarrassing and then some. If nobody cares then what are they doing in their jobs???

PEI and NB do not represent more than half of Canada constituency wise.

If you cannot get nominations done in Saskatchewan which is a historical stronghold for the NDP then you have a problem a very very big problem.

I have never seen things run so shoddily before. If these people turn off a hardline supporter like me then they have a very huge problem.

Sat, 2019-08-31 16:01

#34

pietro_bcc

I tried to give Singh the biggest benefit of the doubt I could (even though he wasn't my choice for leader), but yeah he's a disaster and not giving candidates a fair chance at running a local campaign.

Sat, 2019-08-31 16:45

#35

Pondering

This isn't down to one man, Singh, and I don't thing the leader has that much clout. I think the backroom executive is in charge of the party including nominations. The leader has some power but not over the really big stuff. The leader is the figurehead that takes responsibility for everything which protects the backroom. They just switch out leaders blaming to old leader for everything that went wrong. The money men are in charge.

Sat, 2019-08-31 23:03

#36

Debater

Article on the NDP candidate selection issues:

NDP struggling to nominate candidates as election call draws nearer

Aug 30, 2019

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ndp-nomination-candidates-1.5263840

Sat, 2019-08-31 23:24

(Reply to #36) #37

Left Turn

quizzical wrote:

where's Ann McGrath, Jordan Reid and Ryan Sudds in all this?

they all need kicking to the curb.

Hear Hear!!!

Also the NDP needs to get rid of Brad Lavigne, if he is still working for them. He was previously a PR consultant for one of the fossil fuel companies. Gah!

Sun, 2019-09-01 00:14

#38

Ken Burch

There is no excuse for the NDP dragging its feet on vetting-especially since it looks as though the intent is to essentially have the insiders parachute candidates in rather than letting the riding associations choose them. It goes without saying that any NDP candidate being essentially forced on a riding by the insiders at party HQ will always be a bland passionless cypher who stands for nothing at all, and whose only real qualification is photographing well. Nothing positive has ever come from the anti-left insiders of a left-of-center party insisting on imposing the candidates THEY prefer over the candidates the riding associations or constituency parties would have chosen if allowe to.

Sun, 2019-09-01 00:38

(Reply to #38) #39

Aristotleded24

Misfit wrote:
This is embarrassing and then some. If nobody cares then what are they doing in their jobs???

PEI and NB do not represent more than half of Canada constituency wise.

If you cannot get nominations done in Saskatchewan which is a historical stronghold for the NDP then you have a problem a very very big problem.

I have never seen things run so shoddily before. If these people turn off a hardline supporter like me then they have a very huge problem.

Even Audry McLaughlin and Alexa McDonnough didn't have this many vacancies when they were unable to run full slates. They certainly didn't have anywhere near whole provinces who didn't have candidates for their seats.

Sun, 2019-09-01 02:38

(Reply to #39) #40

kropotkin1951

pietro_bcc wrote:

I tried to give Singh the biggest benefit of the doubt I could (even though he wasn't my choice for leader), but yeah he's a disaster and not giving candidates a fair chance at running a local campaign.

There is no doubt that some of the key management staff need replacing but Jagmeet is doing his job as a Leader, he is not Mathieu Vick, the President of the Federal Executive Board. The party is the Federal Executive there is not supposed to be a dictatorship. The NDP Ottawa team has always performed below expectations and acted like living in Ottawa gave them some revealed truths about politics that mere mortals outside the NCR could never understand.

Sun, 2019-09-01 10:23

#41

R.E.Wood

Quite a lot of fascinating detail here about why the vetting process was essentially frozen in Simcoe North, and why there will apparently be no NDP candidate in that riding:

NDP's vetting process under fire after Simcoe North hopeful backs out

The federal New Democratic Party is taking flak in Simcoe North after an Orillia woman withdrew her candidacy for the nomination.

Janet-Lynne Durnford was hoping to earn the right to run for the NDP in Simcoe North, but as the vetting process dragged on, she decided to back out.

“It was a very difficult decision to make, but I think it was the only decision I could make,” Durnford said.

... “We were super-excited. We could not ask for a more ideal candidate,” said EDA vice-president Elizabeth Van Houtte. “We’re just severely disappointed in the vetting process and how it was handled.”

Almost half of the country’s 338 ridings do not yet have NDP candidates, but the party insists that will change.

“We will have a diverse team of excellent candidates running in each of the 338 ridings,” said NDP press secretary Nina Amrov.

That’s news to Van Houtte, who, prior to Amrov’s response, told OrilliaMatters, “We do not, as a board, have another potential candidate.”

“It was only (Durnford),” she said. “I’m saddened that this will be the first time in my entire life that, where I live, the party that I believe in wholeheartedly won’t have a candidate.”

Asked why the vetting process was taking so long, Amrov replied, “When it comes to candidate nominations, the rules are the same for everyone, and they are in place to ensure the process is fair to everyone. Ms. Durnford repeatedly refused to provide information requested by the campaign, and was well aware that her vetting file could not be completed until she did so.”

Durnford said she was not asked “repeatedly” to provide information — and the information she refused to provide was private.

When the party learned Durnford was a member of a private Facebook group where longtime friends kept in touch, she said, “the NDP vetting people asked to have access to this group.”

“I said, ‘Absolutely not',” she said, noting the group members discuss personal matters and she was not willing to violate their privacy.

Durnford said she sent some screen shots of the group to the party to prove the members were personal friends.

“I wish they hadn’t gone down that road,” she said of Amrov’s statement, “because it puts the vetting people in a very poor light.”

She said the party also asked her to provide information from the time she was a member of the Snopes Urban Legend message board, which no longer exists. Durnford said she found archives dating back to 2003 and provided what she could.

“I bent over backwards to give them what they needed,” she said.

For the party to attract passionate candidates, the policy for vetting “needs to be reviewed to reflect a modern world,” Van Houtte said.

“They need to put more trust in the EDAs and move quickly, in a timely fashion,” she said, describing the vetting process as “flawed.”

https://www.barrietoday.com/local-news/ndps-vetting-process-under-fire-a...

Sun, 2019-09-01 10:44

#42

Mighty Middle

One of the political pundits on CBC speculates it might be Sid Ryan vocal support for BDS that stalled his nomination.

Sun, 2019-09-01 12:03

#43

Pondering

I don't really care what stalled the process and maybe he should be rejected but the process was disrespectful. If someone is willing to put time and effort into becoming a candidate they should be treated respectfully and personally especially if they are as high profile as somone like Sid Ryan. It makes the party look really bad, like any other establishment party. The NDP cannot afford that.

Sun, 2019-09-01 20:24

#44

Misfit

BDS would do it.

Mon, 2019-09-09 18:05

(Reply to #44) #45

Ken Burch

Pondering wrote:

This isn't down to one man, Singh, and I don't thing the leader has that much clout. I think the backroom executive is in charge of the party including nominations. The leader has some power but not over the really big stuff. The leader is the figurehead that takes responsibility for everything which protects the backroom. They just switch out leaders blaming to old leader for everything that went wrong. The money men are in charge.

Then it's time to clear out the backroom men. Everything they have done has been a total failure, and it is now obvious that they are trying to cost the party as many seats as possible in the next election.

There is no positive defense of the use of the vetting process as a means to force candidates out of the race, or of anything else they've done at any time in recent NDP history. Or NDP history at any point, since all the backroom men have ever done is to say "no" and push people away.

Tue, 2019-09-10 19:04

(Reply to #45) #46

Pondering

Ken Burch wrote:

Pondering wrote:

This isn't down to one man, Singh, and I don't thing the leader has that much clout. I think the backroom executive is in charge of the party including nominations. The leader has some power but not over the really big stuff. The leader is the figurehead that takes responsibility for everything which protects the backroom. They just switch out leaders blaming to old leader for everything that went wrong. The money men are in charge.

Then it's time to clear out the backroom men. Everything they have done has been a total failure, and it is now obvious that they are trying to cost the party as many seats as possible in the next election.

There is no positive defense of the use of the vetting process as a means to force candidates out of the race, or of anything else they've done at any time in recent NDP history. Or NDP history at any point, since all the backroom men have ever done is to say "no" and push people away.

I think they are centrist and want to get rid of Singh. They are salaried so it is all about making sure they get paid by the primary donors.

Tue, 2019-09-10 19:15

(Reply to #46) #47

Ken Burch

Pondering wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Pondering wrote:

This isn't down to one man, Singh, and I don't thing the leader has that much clout. I think the backroom executive is in charge of the party including nominations. The leader has some power but not over the really big stuff. The leader is the figurehead that takes responsibility for everything which protects the backroom. They just switch out leaders blaming to old leader for everything that went wrong. The money men are in charge.

Then it's time to clear out the backroom men. Everything they have done has been a total failure, and it is now obvious that they are trying to cost the party as many seats as possible in the next election.

There is no positive defense of the use of the vetting process as a means to force candidates out of the race, or of anything else they've done at any time in recent NDP history. Or NDP history at any point, since all the backroom men have ever done is to say "no" and push people away.

I think they are centrist and want to get rid of Singh. They are salaried so it is all about making sure they get paid by the primary donors.

Who hires and fires those people? Are their positions elective or appointive?

And if they achieve their seeming objective and reduce the NDP to 5 or 10 seats, will they all get cushy jobs with the Liberals a week later?

Tue, 2019-09-10 19:20

#48

Ken Burch

Scariest thought: is the Executive Council holding Singh hostage in some way? Are they saying "dump us and we'll take you down!"?

Tue, 2019-09-10 20:45

(Reply to #48) #49

WWWTT

Ken Burch wrote:

Scariest thought: is the Executive Council holding Singh hostage in some way? Are they saying "dump us and we'll take you down!"?

I think that's a little over the top paranoia.

Tue, 2019-09-10 21:00

#50

cco

The executive's elected by convention, not appointed by the leader. Singh couldn't dump them if he wanted to.

Tue, 2019-09-10 21:33

#51

Pondering

The constitution is here:https://xfer.ndp.ca/2018/Documents/2018-CONSTITUTION.pdf

Whenever I have said “executive” what I really meant was the officers. When Dion and Layton were going to overthrow Harper, Harper and Dion were supposed to submit taped statements to CBC. Dion’s was an hour late because no one showed up to tape him. In the end one of his staff took it on an iphone. After that Dion had to resign but it was due to the failure of the Liberal organization not him personally.

From the NDP constitution, severely edited…

President, Vice President, Treasurer, elected at Convention

i The Vice President Labour shall be nominated by a caucus of labour delegates and ratified by Convention.

(f) National Director

General Description: The National Director shall be the Chief Executive Officer of the

Party and shall be paid such remuneration as may be determined by the Officers.

i The National Director shall be appointed by the Officers and ratified by the Council.

The Executive of the Party shall consist of the Officers, and:

(a) eleven regional representatives. ….

(b) the Northern Caucus shall elect one regional representative

(c) two representatives from Labour affiliates elected by the Labour Caucus at Convention and submitted to Convention for ratification.

(d) the Chairs of the Participation of Women Committee, the New Democratic Youth of Canada, the Racial Justice and Equity Committee, the Aboriginal Commission, the Lesbian-Gay Bisexual-Transgendered Committee, the Persons Living with disAbilities Committee and the Federal Caucus representative - all elected by the respective Caucus at Convention and ratified by Convention.

5. The Executive shall meet at least three times per calendar year. At all meetings of the Executive, ten members shall constitute a quorum. An Executive member who fails to attend three successive meetings without adequate justification shall cease to be a member of the Executive.

The CEO has the most power in any organization. I suspect that there is never any competition in the election of officers. Does anyone know? The officers hire the CEO (National Director).

More to come....

Is the NDP dive deliberate? (Sid Ryan)

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