FNs: don't vote for Canada!

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

If an indigenous person is a sovereignist then voting in a settler election would be a denial of their beliefs.

Absolutely not. They can determine their own beliefs and what is, or is not, a denial of them. That is not up to some white man to instruct them on.

They have the right to vote in federal elections and certainly, regardless of what they want in the future, their communities have needs that they have a right to advocate for at the ballot box. They have every right to reject Canada AND vote in an election for the candidate who would serve their interests the closest. -- Or to decide to boycott if they think that is a stronger message.

They have this right on account of the power of the Canadian state over their land and peoples- whether or not they agree with that power being there.

Your logic suggests that people in Quebec who want a distinct country do not have the right to vote in federal elections either or that people in Northern Ireland do not have a right to vote for a candidate of their choosing in British elections if they do not agree with NI being a part of Britain. They have a right to boycott, elect an MP who will not take a seat, or one who will to support in whatever way possible their view on sessession, or one who will advocate for other political priorities they have.

It. Is. Not. Up. To. You.

Your comment is shockingly paternalistic coming from someone who likes to lecture others about imperialism.

 

Sean you just built a very very tall straw man. Please stop telling me what I believe. I never fucking said anything about people rights to vote in any elections. I was commenting on the fact that the indigenous sovereignists I know personally have that view.

No you are lying. Nothing about Indigenous people you know just you saying that using this right is a denial of their beliefs. That is offensive. Denying the legitimacy of their beliefs if they vote is something you have no right to do.

I never told you what to believe I said you had no right to call into question the legitimacy of Indigenous people who choose to vote.

This is what you said:

"If an indigenous person is a sovereignist then voting in a settler election would be a denial of their beliefs. I am hoping that given the Liberals fight with the Human Rights tribunal and the NDP's strong candidates they will win over many First Nations communities that last time got sucked in by Trudeau's lies. I am not sure how many ridings it is but there are certainly a fair number where the indigenous population is large enough to swing an election."

Some Indigenous people vote in Canadian elections while some do not.   There are differing views within Indigenous nations as to how they approach settler state elections.   They need to be respected regardless as to the conclusion they draw.   That is all.

Well said Radiorahim and Sean

radiorahim wrote:

Some Indigenous people vote in Canadian elections while some do not.   There are differing views within Indigenous nations as to how they approach settler state elections.   They need to be respected regardless as to the conclusion they draw.   That is all.

Thank you for reiterating my point.

Whatever, lets get back to the issues.

quizzical wrote:

bs SeaninO. i got what kropotkin said the first time he said it which was exactly what both you and radio..said.

ffs you read it wrong and then jumped all over someone. 

why is it you only show up at election times and then start yelling at people?

btw what do you think you're doing when in jump in and go all hero?

Explain this:

"If an indigenous person is a sovereignist then voting in a settler election would be a denial of their beliefs."

He hasn't.

It certainly sounds like he is interpreting the action of an individual's vote as denying their beliefs. That deserved to be called out. Not sure what the pile-on does for you but fill yer boots.

As for being here at election time it is true I took a break for a few months from this place becuase of the bullshit here. But over the last very many years most of my posts have not been at election time. So what? Most people who were here in the past have left for a while - or stayed away permanently -- this place is going downhill. I am not committing to being here or leaving. I don't think there is any obligation to do either.

and by the way -- I see you do a lot of yelling yourself.

Sean pretty simple really. maybe you don't get it as clearly being from eastern Canada but here in BC most land isn't ceded. Sovereign nationhood is lived. 

a good many  Indigenous i know here don't vote nor sing or otherwise acknowledge O Canada at public events especially those events not acknowledging whose Nation they're on.

Kropotkin not a huge fan of Kanahus or rather her actions. she's a fabulous strong women. because i dont believe ends justify the phoney means, on any occasion i can't support her actions.

quizzical wrote:

Sean pretty simple really. maybe you don't get it as clearly being from eastern Canada but here in BC most land isn't ceded. Sovereign nationhood is lived. 

a good many  Indigenous i know here don't vote nor sing or otherwise acknowledge O Canada at public events especially those events not acknowledging whose Nation they're on.

Kropotkin not a huge fan of Kanahus or rather her actions. she's a fabulous strong women. because i dont believe ends justify the phoney means, on any occasion i can't support her actions.

 

Not sure wjhat your agenda is in this thread becuase you seem to be working extremely hard to avoid the point I was making which has absolutely nothing to do with me being in Eastern Canada which is a hobby horse of you and K.

I do not think it is up to anyone regardless of the province they live in to assume that all people of any group have to interpret their rights to vote to be consitent with any other beliefs they have. I objected to a comment and really it ran its course until you jumped in to revive the conflict and keep it going for your apparent amusement or whatever.

My reasoning may have been coloured in part by following the situation in Northern Ireland where many people vote in the UK elections who do not believe that the UK legitimately ought to control any part of Ireland. This is not a contradiction.

I know the culture here is so polarized that you are unable to get past my objection which is not hard to understand -- that is if you wanted to -- and that you have to find a bunch of ridiculous insults to keep the conflict going. I find it absurd that you find my position so much harder to understand than the comment which I already said was unfortunate given K's previously more balanced comments. We both had reached a point where the issue was done until you decided that you had not had enough popcorn or whatever and wanted to revive the thing. Exactly what the hell did you want to achieve by jumping into a spat that had ended and had ended with somewhat of  an acknowledgement on my part that the comment was not representative of all K had to say.

Then you attacked me for only coming back here after a few months away. Your attack was gratutitous given that the discussion had closed when you jumped in and not at all constructive. Your attack only revived a conflict that had ended. Kropotkin do not have to agree on everythign and you do not have to be an arbiter of other people's arguments. Frankly you do not have the skills, motivations or diplomacy to do that job. It is ironic that you could acuse me of picking a fight when I actually had a substantive comment to make on a principle you may disagree with but at least I explained it-- yours was just an insult to pick a fight.

***

Yes I know Indigenous people who do not identify with Canada or vote. I have never heard them say that this personal choice is the only universal choice to make for people who have this view.

I personally do not even identify nationally as I have become revolted by nationalism. You could say that me voting in a national election is a problem since I think national governments are counter productive in the world. I do not feel the need to reconcile this. I vote for the reasons I vote. In an ideal world I would prefer there were no national governments and just a single world government. I do not respect the role of Canada in ruling over Indigenous people or the real oppression and inequality they face. I have not made my protest into not voting. Probably it is becuase I think the gesture would be futile. This does not mean I do not respect those who make that choice.

Kropotkin has said much of the same thing. However, he made a comment that I objected to and criticized. It got resolved. You decided to have an extra dig at the fact that I live in Eastern Canada.

I have often found interaction with you difficult. You are often correct and I agree with you most of the time but your divisive attacks on people - like based on where they live - especially when it comes to attacking without even being involved in the initial conversations makes you impossible to ally with. This is too bad as the left in general has this circular firing squad tradition that you seem to have taken such a fondness for.

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/the-irony-of-the-first-nations-vote/?utm_medium=organic&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1570482165

Given that his wife, Joan Phillip, is running as an NDP candidate in the Central Okanagan-Similkameen-Nicola I expect he would be fully on side with the Orange team.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Given that his wife, Joan Phillip, is running as an NDP candidate in the Central Okanagan-Similkameen-Nicola I expect he would be fully on side with the Orange team.

he is and was with Jagmeet, Joan and Richard in Penticton last night.

It seems to me it's very paternalistic to tell indigenous people how they should or should not politically express themselves.

Urging indigenous people to vote exclusively for the NDP, or any other party, would be wrong too.

I get that point of view - very much so. I also know that different governments result in different outcomes for many First Nations, Inuit and Métis people. Not earth shattering differences, but some governments are worse than others. Pallister in Manitoba is a prime example of that.

I think you disrespect Indigenous people when you tell them how they should or should not express themselves politically.

NDPP wrote:

"By voting for a government of Canada, Indians would be recognizing the lawful jurisdiction of a foreign power over the bands...If Indians were to vote the concept of a Sovereign Indian state would receive a death blow."

https://twitter.com/1mohawklawyer/status/14131996607768244228

NDPP, that disgusting tweet you just posted has been deleted.

JKR wrote:

I think you disrespect Indigenous people when you tell them how they should or should not express themselves politically.

Then it is disrespectful to tell anyone how they should or should not express themselves politically. Should I tell a person from Quebec how to vote in a sovereignty referendum. I think not but it sure didn't stop millions of Canadians from sending messages to please stay and the thousands that sent hate mail telling them to leave. Personally I thought it was none of my business other than to express my opinion that a sovereign Quebec was fine by me since it was not my nation but I would never vote in favour of a sovereignty association agreement because I do not believe that Canada is a binary construct.

So tell me which of these opinions is respectful enough for you.

Indigenous voters are far more complex than voters from one province. An urban Manitoban Cree might benefit from voting but a sovereignist fighting for recognition of land title and not an extinquishment treaty process would be acknowledging that the Canadian state has current jurisdiction over the unceded territories that the riding is situated in. That is different than in Quebec where even hard core soverignists do not argue that the BNA Act has no bearing on their political status. The people of Quebec got special recognition in the constitution and indigenous people got constitutional enslavement to the state appointed Indian Agent.

Now how about my Toronto family, who are part of the Caribbean diaspora. Can I tell them how they should vote in Scarborough and Ajax or would that be disrespectful because they are also a minority and my circumstances as a white BC'er are culturally very different.

What is allowable political discourse?

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

What is allowable political discourse?

I think it is out of bounds to imply that Indigenous people who vote in a Canadian election are collaborators and traitors. I know many Indigenous people who vote and I think I have no right whatsoever to criticize them. I also know many Indigenous people who don't vote and I also have no right whatsoever to criticize them for that either.

Is it all right if I say that any citizen who votes in a Canadian election is an imperialist collaborator who supports the ongoing genocide of indigenous people? Your fucking attempt to set the boundaries of allowable discourse is very Democratic but very infuriating in this country.

JKR wrote:

I think saying people who vote in Canadian elections are imperialist collaborators is ok but singling out indigenous people for criticism is not ok. I think Indigenous people are beyond reproach when it comes to how they choose to deal with Canadian imperialism.

I think that treating my indigenous friends as noble "beings" that are beyond reproach for their political views would make them roll on the floor with laughter. But then I am related to some of them by marriage. I see your viewpoint as deeply racist since it implies that I need to change my political discourse about sovereignty depending on who I am speaking to. I personally try to treat all my indigenous family members and friends and business acquaintances the same as I treat my black family members and friends which is the same as how I treat the rest of the people I meet and am friends and family with. I think respect is speaking ones mind to another as an equal not mincing one words. It is like someone trying to tell me I can't criticize Israel because that would be antisemitic. I disagree with both ideas.