United Kingdom 2

1052 posts / 0 new

Wed, 2019-10-16 02:05

#1002

JKR

Ken Burch wrote:

And it goes without saying that those who want Labour to go back to being the right-wing party it was under Blair, like nicky, have only been pushing for Corbyn to endorse having the party go all-out Remain because they know that that position would make a landslide Labour defeat a certain, because that position would throw every Labour seat in the North and Northeast of England to the Brexit Party, which would then hold all of those seats for the next ten to fifteen years.

This has been the motivation of the anti-Corbyn, antidemocratic wing of the PLP the whole time.

Why would Labour members want to help the Brexit Party and hurt their own party for the next ten to fifteen years?

Wed, 2019-10-16 03:10

(Reply to #1002) #1003

Ken Burch

JKR wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

And it goes without saying that those who want Labour to go back to being the right-wing party it was under Blair, like nicky, have only been pushing for Corbyn to endorse having the party go all-out Remain because they know that that position would make a landslide Labour defeat a certain, because that position would throw every Labour seat in the North and Northeast of England to the Brexit Party, which would then hold all of those seats for the next ten to fifteen years.

This has been the motivation of the anti-Corbyn, antidemocratic wing of the PLP the whole time.

Why would Labour members want to help the Brexit Party and hurt their own party for the next ten to fifteen years?

Because the Labour MPs I'm speaking of here would rather see Labour lose elections than accept the party being anything other than their private club and their ticket to the only thing they really care about: high paying corporate directorships and the kind of massive, unearned wealth they can acquire giving smug, pompous defenses of the status quo on the ruling class after-dinner speech circuit.

Wed, 2019-10-16 03:18

(Reply to #1003) #1004

Ken Burch

NorthReport wrote:

Ken, it seems the Labour MPs disagree with you

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-labour-referendum-jeremy-corbyn-general-election-final-say-vote-a9151131.html

Those are the same MPs who never accepted Corbyn as leader in the first place and have refused ever to treat him with any respect at all. They are pushing for Labour to go all-out Remain in order to ensure that Labour loses the next election, so they can force Corbyn out as leader and then rig the leadership ballot to exclude any non-Blairite candidates. That's what everything the anti-Corbynites have done for the last four years has been about.

Wed, 2019-10-16 12:58

(Reply to #1004) #1005

JKR

Ken Burch wrote:

How many Labour MP's fit into this category?

Wed, 2019-10-16 13:14

#1006

NDPP

"New: ComRes poll of 26,000 people shows that the majority of Brits want the referendum result delivered (regardless of how they voted), with LEAVE outpolling Remain as preferred outcome by 54% to 46%..."

https://twitter.com/isaby/status/1184373555443720192

"The tragedy for Labour is that it has been wrong on Europe. It has been on the opposite side of the argument to the British people at various times in history. Brexit was centre-left ideas made by centre-right politicians. If we'd been LEAVE we'd be the Gods of politics."

https://twitter.com/BrendanChilton/status/1183848981174112256

Thu, 2019-10-17 06:39

#1007

NDPP

WATCH: Juncker & Johnson Say Brexit Deal Struck Between EU and UK

https://www.euronews.com/2019/10/17/juncker-and-johnson-say-brexit-deal-...

"Jean-Claude Juncker and Boris Johnson have both announced that a Brexit deal has been struck between the EU and the UK..."

Labour Leave

https://twitter.com/labourleave/status/1183799891404955652

"We as a campaign will not support a deal with Brussels that in any way resembles the Withdrawal Agreement. Labour Leave supports a clean Brexit. That is what the people of this country voted for."

Thu, 2019-10-17 17:41

#1008

NDPP

BRINO By Boris: Brexit-In-Name-Only

https://twitter.com/C_Lapavitsas/status/1184891237863772160

"Johnson's deal accepts all EU constraints on public procurement and state aid, while adding a 'Free Trade Agreement'. It could block radical policies for decades. Johnson's deal with the EU is worse than May's and it has nothing to do with Lexit. But the answer to Johnson should not be to Remain in the restrictive and undemocratic EU. It should be LEFT BREXIT that would make radical policies possible."

Thu, 2019-10-17 22:39

(Reply to #1008) #1009

Ken Burch

JKR wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Because the Labour MPs I'm speaking of here would rather see Labour lose elections than accept the party being anything other than their private club and their ticket to the only thing they really care about: high paying corporate directorships and the kind of massive, unearned wealth they can acquire giving smug, pompous defenses of the status quo on the ruling class after-dinner speech circuit.

How many Labour MP's fit into this category?

(note: that question was a quote from JKR. I'm not sure why it's appearing like it's part of my post).

You'd have to assume the majority of the anti-Corbynites, virtually all of whom are only in their seats because Kinnock or Blair imposed them as parliamentary candidates against the will of their constituency parties, would fit in that category. It's virtually impossible to be an anti-Corbyn MP without being at least somewhat corrupt and cynical. The massive number of former Blairite MPs and cabinet ministers who have ended up in high-paying, often no-show corporate positions or commanding absurdly large fees on the ruling-class speaking circuit clearly bears this out.

Fri, 2019-10-18 02:03

#1010

JKR

I really hope this huge schism within Labour doesn't hand power to the Conservatives in the upcoming election.

Fri, 2019-10-18 10:30

#1011

NDPP

Johnson's Big Deal

https://twitter.com/DrLeeJones/status/1185093302699417600

"Very useful briefer on the Brexit deal. Makes clear that as predicted BJ has basically adopted the full NI backstop offered by the EU in 2018, but will activate it immediately (hence not technically a 'backstop'). More remarkable is all the detail yet to be worked out..."

Fri, 2019-10-18 15:06

#1012

Ken Burch

These last two threads support two points I've been trying to make:

1) The priority should not be on the fight to get a second referendum before the election, because even if it was possible to get a second referendum through this parliament-and the results of all previous parliamentary votes on the issue prove it isn't-it's far from clear that Remain would prevail in a second referendum, so having a second referendum would in all likelihood be a waste of time;

2) What matters is stopping Boris from getting what he wants-a goal that IS achievable if the majority of Labour MPs abandon their obsession with trying to destroy their party's current leader, and their obsession with trying to force said leader into taking a stand on Brexit they know would destroy Labour's chances of beating the Tories at the next general election, and focus instead on what they should be focused on; making sure Boris' Brexit proposal doesn't pass.

Fri, 2019-10-18 16:11

#1013

NDPP

"It is better for the UK to leave the EU with no deal than for the UK to accept a bad deal from the EU:' Agree: 45%, Disagree 27%. 75% of Leave voters agree, as do 22% of Remain voters."

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1185277757665742850

Fri, 2019-10-18 16:47

(Reply to #1013) #1014

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

NDPP wrote:

"It is better for the UK to leave the EU with no deal than for the UK to accept a bad deal from the EU:' Agree: 45%, Disagree 27%. 75% of Leave voters agree, as do 22% of Remain voters."

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1185277757665742850

If only there were a definintion of what is a "bad deal" this poll would actually mean something.

Fri, 2019-10-18 20:38

#1015

NorthReport

For three years, we remainers have held our breath. This is the moment our dreams may die

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/18/remainers-boris-johnson-brexit

Fri, 2019-10-18 20:55

#1016

NDPP

Prominent Remain and Leave Supporters Combine To Urge Opposition to Johnson's Sell-Out Deal

https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellMP/status/1185286556724150278

Bojo's new EU treaty is May's deal 2.0 with lipstick on the pig. Pound rises on the news - big capital approves.

Fri, 2019-10-18 22:01

#1017

JKR

Now that there is a specific Brexit plan it should be put to a referendum where people actually know what they're voting for.

Fri, 2019-10-18 22:58

#1018

NDPP

It may very well happen. The consistent pattern observed elsewhere is for EU power players to repeat their enabling processes until power is achieved and confirmed. Collaborationist politicians left and right are always available as is msm to sell and cheerlead to ultimate surrender and neoliberal victory. I expect the UK will be true to the same template.

Fri, 2019-10-18 23:10

#1019

NDPP

"MPs are paid in excess of 74,000 pounds a year and yet some of these are demanding additional expenses just for a one-off attendance in parliament this Saturday to debate Brexit. This is complete and utter ignorance and self-indulgence."

https://twitter.com/SocialistVote/status/1185265055161556992

From the many for the few. Never austerity for the pigs in parliament.

Sat, 2019-10-19 08:42

#1020

NDPP

'The People Don't Know Their True Power'

https://twitter.com/communicipalist/status/1185533324816797697

"So Boris Johnson is refloating the May deal and calling it 'radical' while the coalition of Brexit nay-sayers in Westminster conspire to overthrow democracy by - 1. disregarding 17.4 million votes. 2 - refusing to call an election. Thus with few exceptions our MPs need evicting asap!"

Sat, 2019-10-19 08:49

#1021

NDPP

LIVE: UK MPs Debate BoJo's Deal

https://www.rt.com/on-air/471296-uk-mps-debate-brexit-deal

"Special Saturday meeting to dismiss whether or not to adopt the latest Brexit deal. Several amendment related to the agreement are also on the agenda..."

Sat, 2019-10-19 09:40

#1022

josh

Vote it down.

Sat, 2019-10-19 16:29

#1023

NDPP

EU Imposes Anti-Union Law on Greece

https://twitter.com/labourleave/status/1185529613163925505

"Where would workers be without the beloved EU?"

Sat, 2019-10-19 16:32

#1024

josh

Fortunately, Syriza suffered a well-deserved defeat.

Sun, 2019-10-20 21:00

#1025

NDPP

'What Democracy is This?'

https://twitter.com/Hennee11/status/1185996442739056644

"General Election? What democracy is this? As a left wing leave voter who do I vote for now? Labour have become essentially a remain party. Who instead? Tories? Never; Farage? No, don't trust his motives; Lib Dems? Remainers; Greens? Remainers! HELP!"

'If voting changed anything they'd make it illegal*.' Emma Goldman

(Or just ignore it because you're 'racist' and 'deplorable' not to vote for EU neoliberalism.)

Sun, 2019-10-20 21:04

#1026

NDPP

WATCH: George Galloway - The Mother of All Talkshows (Ep. 18)

https://twitter.com/georgegalloway/status/1185976740356603904

Journo Patrick Chrystys on Brexit, Geopolitical analyst Maryam Susli on Syria, and more!

Tue, 2019-10-22 19:22

#1027

NDPP

A Parliamentary Dictatorship

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/10/21/a-parliamentary-dictatorship/

"...We have a Remainer parliament defying the members of a Brexit electorate. MPs are now doing things in parliament that they explicitly told voters in the GE of 2017, they would not do..."

Brits See Opportunism of MPs on Brexit

https://youtu.be/BE-cbyl9G3s

"UK PM Boris Johnson is in a showdown with Parliament to move forward with putting his new Brexit deal to a vote or else demanding a snap election. But will the strong-arm tactic work? Former MP George Galloway joins In Question to discuss the Brexit latest."

You Were Warned. You Didn't Listen.

https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1186717972594905088

"Latest YouGov poll gives the Tories a 17 percentage point lead over Labour among the C2DEs (the occupational working class). Staggering. Labour is hemmorhaging the support of its core vote..."

Tue, 2019-10-22 20:27

(Reply to #1027) #1028

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

A Parliamentary Dictatorship

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/10/21/a-parliamentary-dictatorship/

"...We have a Remainer parliament defying the members of a Brexit electorate. MPs are now doing things in parliament that they explicitly told voters in the GE of 2017, they would not do..."

Brits See Opportunism of MPs on Brexit

https://youtu.be/BE-cbyl9G3s

"UK PM Boris Johnson is in a showdown with Parliament to move forward with putting his new Brexit deal to a vote or else demanding a snap election. But will the strong-arm tactic work? Former MP George Galloway joins In Question to discuss the Brexit latest."

You Were Warned. You Didn't Listen.

https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1186717972594905088

"Latest YouGov poll gives the Tories a 17 percentage point lead over Labour among the C2DEs (the occupational working class). Staggering. Labour is hemmorhaging the support of its core vote..."

With the lopsided results of FPTP this will be a blow-out.

Wed, 2019-10-23 21:33

#1029

NDPP

EI: Palestine Activist Removed From Labour Shortlist After Smear

https://t.co/SQQ2Z1GdGr

"Monehen is the latest in a long line of victims in the witch hunt against the left and the Palestine solidarity movement that has been raging in Labour since 2015..."

WATCH: Labouring Under Anti-Semitism

https://rabble.ca/comment/5594706#comment-5594706

Norman Finkelstein analyzes the Apartheid Israel lobby problem in UK Labour etc

Fri, 2019-10-25 08:14

#1030

NDPP

Will We Ever Have An Election Again?

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/10/25/will-we-ever-have-an-election-a...

"This has become farcical. This Zombie parliament must end..."

Fri, 2019-10-25 10:57

(Reply to #1030) #1031

JKR

NDPP wrote:

Will We Ever Have An Election Again?

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/10/25/will-we-ever-have-an-election-a...

"This has become farcical. This Zombie parliament must end..."

The last election was just in 2017 so the next one is actually set for 2022. There was also another election in 2015.

Fri, 2019-10-25 13:39

#1032

NDPP

Lapavitsas: Boris' Deal is No Left Exit

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/10/boris-deal-is-no-left-exit

"...From the perspective of the left the worst mistake would be to reject Johnson's deal, only to campaign foursquare for Remain. If the Labour Party fell into this trap, it would be decisively isolated from broad swathes of its working class base, while putting an end to the prospect of socialist policies.

Rather, the left of the Labour Party ought to propose radical amendments to Johnson's deal, including eliminating the role of the European Court, scrapping the neoliberal dreams of Johnson's Free Trade Agreement, and clear terms allowing for industrial policy. There can [be] no socialist radicalism today within the European Union. Even at this late hour, that message ought to be stated loud and clear."

Fri, 2019-10-25 14:09

#1033

NDPP

John Pilger: Julian Assange's Extradition Case is A SHOW TRIAL (and vid)

https://www.rt.com/shows/going-underground/471597-john-pilger-assange-ex...

"On this episode of Going Underground, we speak to legendary journalist and filmmaker John Pilger about Julian Assange's latest extradition hearing on Monday, which he attended. He discusses how Assange appeared at the trial, the bias of the judge against the journalist, the lack of mainstream media coverage of his persecution, his health and condition in Belmarsh Prison, CIA spying on the WikiLeaks founder, and more!

Next we speak to Chris Williamson MP about Assange's extradition hearing, his motion in the House of Commons to condemn his treatment, why his persecution is of international importance, the silence of mainstream media on Julian Assange, the lack of vocal outrage from Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Front Bench over Assange's treatment, and more!"

Fri, 2019-10-25 14:28

#1034

nicky

Surely you must agree with this, Ken?

Ask yourself, would the Lib Dems be enjoying their current poll revival if Labour were led by someone instantly and intuitively identifiable as a conviction remainer? Or would remain voters feel no need to decamp to Jo Swinson in that scenario, happily rallying behind Labour instead? To be concise, Johnson yearns for an election because the remain vote is divided – and that is because millions of remainers have looked at Corbyn’s Labour and decided they need to look elsewhere.

Yet the curious thing about British politics just now is that, among Labour supporters, this is barely mentioned in public. To raise it is to bring social media ordure down upon on your head, as if it were improper or even sacrilegious to speak of such things – even though it is truly extraordinary that the party of opposition is not 20 points ahead of a government in office for nine years, so bitterly divided it has expelled 21 of its own MPs, including two former chancellors, and which has failed to deliver on its central promise. Such a government should be bracing itself for a wipeout. Instead, blessed by a record-breakingly weak opposition, it is preparing to win another term.

The diehards will say that to criticise Corbyn in this way is to side with the Tories against the poor and vulnerable. But the opposite is true. To stick with a path that makes five more years of Boris Johnson, and a hard Brexit, more likely is not to side with the poor and the vulnerable – it is to betray them.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/25/labour-jeremy-corbyn-party-leader-brexit-boris-johnson

Fri, 2019-10-25 15:25

#1035

Ken Burch

Yes, they would, because the Brexit Party would then win every Labour Leave vote and hold those votes for the next twenty years. It's not possible to win Labour Leave votes in the Labour heartlands when you take the we-agree-to-give-up-on-socialism "conviction Remain" position.

It's not possible to put Remain over everything else and want a decent society for the working and kept-from-working poor.

Neither is it possible to be no-deal Brexit and do so.

That's why Corbyn's position, whatever you think of Corbyn, is the only sensible one

For now, since it's impossible to get a second referendum or Article 50 repeal passed in this parliament, it's enough to stop Boris' "deal".

After that, what matters is getting the damn Tories out.

But you don't care about that.

If you did, you wouldn't have spent the last four years helping viciously slander Labour's leader and helping perpetuate the despicable accusation that he's nonchalant at best about a form of bigotry he has fought all of his life.

No one who'd lead Labour as a "conviction Remainer" could possibly be a socialist or oppose austerity in any case.

Fri, 2019-10-25 16:27

#1036

Ken Burch

Corbyn, unlike Swinson-whose support will collapse once her right-wing positions on almost all issues are exposed during the campaign-has offered the only position that can unite Labour Leave(most of the voters in the Labour heartlands) and Labour Remain(those working under the delusion that being all-out Remain is the only way to oppose xenophobia-it's not, actually, soft Brexit, which would preserve the immigration and human rights ties to the EU while freeing the UK from the unjustifiable constraints on spending taxation,and the ability to nationalize, all of which were the reasons Tony Benn opposed EU membership and all of which are the main reasons "social democratic" parties on the European mainland have totally abandoned social democracy and embraced Thatcherism, a stance which has destroyed popular support for every "social democratic" party and will continue to destroy it, as the EU leadership intended

If the EU could be made anti-austerity, it would be different.

If EU policies could ever be changed at all-they haven't on anything important since the institution was established, other than to be made more right-wing on economics and spending-it would be different.

But on economics, EU economic and spending rules are carved in stone for the rest of eternity and the only socialist position is to get out of those rules until the EU is replaced by a Europe-wide body that is not designed to present socialism from ever happening.

A Labour government can't BE a Labour government under EU rules.

And those of you who are anti-Corbynites don't care.

But go ahead with the abuse-those of you who are continuing to attack Corbyn, knowing that it's too late to change leaders before the snap election and knowing that Labour wouldn't run on a program any different than that from the Tories if anyone the PLP preferred to Corbyn was leading it. Just go ahead.

Your lot never wanted the Tories defeated...because as "Labour moderates", you never wanted Thatcherism brought to an end.

Fri, 2019-10-25 15:43

#1037

nicky

Ken, there are nineteen lies in your last two posts.

you might want to edit them

Fri, 2019-10-25 16:19

#1038

Ken Burch

I didn't lie about anything.

Everything in the EU IS unchangeable. The fact that none of the economic constraints have been changed since the creation of the institution proves it. If if was changeable, you wouldn't keep attacking Corbyn on this issue when he has said he would prefer to stay in the EU if it COULD be changed and when you know that the position he takes-a referendum with Remain as an option once Labour is elected-and when what he said proved he wasn't a hidden Leaver. The man is actually a heartbroken Remainer-he would be conviction Remain if it was possible to be conviction Remain without being conviction "preserve the EU status quo forever".

I respect those in the party who are Remain because they believe it's the only way to oppose xenophobia-it's not-but staying in an unchangeable and permanently right-wing on economics EU means you have to give up ending austerity and reversing Thatcherism. It is that fact that is the main reason most of the Labour Right is Remain-the antisocialist anti-Corbynites(there's no such thing as a socialist anti-Corbynite) want to stay in the EU because they want to make sure that if Corbyn is elected, he would be unable to do anything to the left of Blair.

It's possible to negotiate an arrangement that keeps the human rights protections-the ONLY progressive part of the EU-without staying in the economic constraints. And Boris' no-deal Brexit is dead now with his having had to ask for an extension, so why not admit that it's time to get off Corbyn's case?

Fri, 2019-10-25 16:30

#1039

Ken Burch

It wouldn't be a change to replace Boris with Starmer or Thornberry-whatever mildly social democratic values both of them might have would be crushed by the Blairites, and no one who identifies with professional politicians against activists, as both of them do, is still going to care about the poor. Why would anyone think otherwise? There's be no reason to celebrate a Labour "victory"-even if it was possible-if it was under a leader whose policies weren't a total repudiation of Blair's antisocialism and antidemocracy. And there wouldn't be anyone left in the party to go out and doorbell for Labour candidates if the socialists were kicked out again. It would be back to the dead zone of Ed Miliband, or maybe of his useless brother David-the one the Labour Right wanted as leader even though he had nothing to offer other than his hatred of everything the Left stands for.

The only way a leadership change could possibly work would be if the PLP was to guarantee that there'd be no moves to the right on any issue under any leader who replaced Corbyn. Labour can't be Labour anymore if it does move to the right of Corbyn on anything, so this should be a reasonable expectation, as should be the institution of full internal party democracy and Open Selection for sitting Labour MPs, with control of the candidate selection process returned fully to the constituency parties.

Sat, 2019-10-26 17:25

#1040

nicky

As I pointed out above Ken, you told nineteen lies in two posts. Here they are:

1. the Brexit Party would then win every Labour Leave vote

2. and hold those votes for the next twenty years.

3. It's not possible to win Labour Leave votes in the Labour heartlands when you take the we-agree-to-give-up-on-socialism "conviction Remain" position.

4. It's not possible to put Remain over everything else and want a decent society for the working and kept-from-working poor.

5. Corbyn’s position, whatever you think of Corbyn, is the only sensible one

6. it's impossible to get a second referendum or Article 50 repeal passed in this parliament, it's enough to stop Boris' "deal".

7. what matters is getting the damn Tories out. But you don't care about that.

8. [it is] a despicable accusation that he's nonchalant at best about a form of bigotry he has fought all of his life.

9. No one who'd lead Labour as a "conviction Remainer" could possibly be a socialist or oppose austerity in any case.

10. Swinson-whose support will collapse once her right-wing positions on almost all issues are exposed during the campaign-

11. "social democratic" parties on the European mainland have totally abandoned social democracy and embraced Thatcherism.

12. EU policies could ever be changed at all-they haven't on anything important since the institution was established, other than to be made more right-wing on economics and spending.

13. But on economics, EU economic and spending rules are carved in stone for the rest of eternity and the only socialist position is to get out of those rules until

14.the is designed to present socialism from ever happening.

15. A Labour government can't BE a Labour government under EU rules.

16. And those of you who are anti-Corbynites don't care.

17. it's too late to change leaders before the snap election.

18. Labour wouldn't run on a program any different than that from the Tories if anyone the PLP preferred to Corbyn was leading it.

19. Your lot never wanted the Tories defeated...because as "Labour moderates", you never wanted Thatcherism brought to an end.

Oh, and not a single one is backed up by any facts or analysis, only your simplistic unsupported assertions, however ridiculous.

Mon, 2019-10-28 08:58

#1041

NDPP

George Galloway - Mother of All Talkshows - October 28, 2019 (and vid)

https://twitter.com/ggmoats/status/1188712177521381376

"Is Al Baghdadi really dead? And will we Brexit on Thursday? Enjoy the full show!

Mon, 2019-10-28 09:59

#1042

NDPP

The Absurdity of Labour's Enthusiasm For the European Project

https://brexitcentral.com/the-absurdity-of-labours-enthusiasm-for-the-eu...

"I've never been able to understand my party's ignorance of economics and production. We're good at fostering consumption and excellence at the NHS, education, social services and welfare, but appalling at understanding the basic economics of building and sustaining an industrial base on which everything rests. Instead of growing the economy by state backing and export-led growth as competitors have done, we're left behind clinging to a protectionist bloc designed to protect French agriculture and German manufacturing at our expense.

EU membership means no nationalisations, no state aid to protect jobs, no effective regional policy, no massive deficit-spending to stimulate a flagging economy. Instead, Britain must continue to be drained and dragged down by a European Union, once dynamic but now on the brink of recession thanks to its German inspired neo-liberalism. The alternative to breaking out and fighting back is slow, long term decline..."

Mon, 2019-10-28 23:59

#1043

NDPP

The Never Ending Story

https://youtu.be/ZcipbeWSjtw

The other 27 EU nations have said 'yes' to another Brexit extension but UK-PM Boris Johnson is pushing for a new general election on December 12. UK Labour in a tailspin. George Galloway analyzes.

'Is It Any Wonder The Chickens Are On the Run?'

https://twitter.com/HarrietSergeant/status/1188955376814886912

"This is riveting. The vast majority of Remainer politicians are rated negatively. It might make them pause before asking the public a second time - on anything."

Tue, 2019-10-29 00:30

(Reply to #1043) #1044

JKR

NDPP wrote:

"The vast majority of Remainer politicians are rated negatively. It might make them pause before asking the public a second time - on anything."

Why shouldn't the UK public be allowed to accept or reject Boris Johnson's deal with the EU as the UK voters never voted for Boris Johnson's deal with the EU?

Tue, 2019-10-29 00:41

(Reply to #1044) #1045

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

As I pointed out above Ken, you told nineteen lies in two posts. Here they are:

1.   the Brexit Party would then win every Labour Leave vote

2.   and hold those votes for the next twenty years.

3.   It's not possible to win Labour Leave votes in the Labour heartlands when you take the we-agree-to-give-up-on-socialism "conviction Remain" position.

4.   It's not possible to put Remain over everything else and want a decent society for the working and kept-from-working poor.

5.   Corbyn’s position, whatever you think of Corbyn, is the only sensible one

6. it's impossible to get a second referendum or Article 50 repeal passed in this parliament, it's enough to stop Boris' "deal".

7. what matters is getting the damn Tories out. But you don't care about that.

8. [it is] a despicable accusation that he's nonchalant at best about a form of bigotry he has fought all of his life.

9. No one who'd lead Labour as a "conviction Remainer" could possibly be a socialist or oppose austerity in any case.

10. Swinson-whose support will collapse once her right-wing positions on almost all issues are exposed during the campaign-

11. "social democratic" parties on the European mainland have totally abandoned social democracy and embraced Thatcherism.

12. EU policies could ever be changed at all-they haven't on anything important since the institution was established, other than to be made more right-wing on economics and spending.

13. But on economics, EU economic and spending rules are carved in stone for the rest of eternity and the only socialist position is to get out of those rules until

14.the is designed to present socialism from ever happening.

15. A Labour government can't BE a Labour government under EU rules.

16. And those of you who are anti-Corbynites don't care.

17. it's too late to change leaders before the snap election.

18. Labour wouldn't run on a program any different than that from the Tories if anyone the PLP preferred to Corbyn was leading it.

19. Your lot never wanted the Tories defeated...because as "Labour moderates", you never wanted Thatcherism brought to an end.

Oh, and not a single one is backed up by any facts or analysis, only your simplistic unsupported assertions, however ridiculous.

None of those are lies. They are simply things that, as an economic privileged antisocialist who still thinks Blair was right to strip Labour of everything it stood for, you happen to disagree with.

Tue, 2019-10-29 06:34

#1046

nicky

Four more lies:

1. None of those are lies.

2. [I am] economic privileged

3. [I am]antisocialist

4. [I] still think Blair was right to strip Labour of everything it stood for.

Tue, 2019-10-29 06:46

#1047

nicky

It is amazing how much mendacity you can cram into one sentence, Ken.

you should perhaps write crime fiction.

In one of Dashiell Hammett’s stories, "The Golden Horseshoe," his nameless protagonist, the Continental Op, finds himself in a Tijuana bar staring at a sign on the wall—"Only genuine prewar British and American whiskey served here." He is trying to figure out just how many lies that nine-word sign contain. He’s counted four, but is sure that he’s missed a couple, when the action resumes.
L

Tue, 2019-10-29 07:20

(Reply to #1047) #1048

NDPP

JKR wrote:

NDPP wrote:

"The vast majority of Remainer politicians are rated negatively. It might make them pause before asking the public a second time - on anything."

Why shouldn't the UK public be allowed to accept or reject Boris Johnson's deal with the EU as the UK voters never voted for Boris Johnson's deal with the EU?

NDPP wrote:

Fair enough. So let Labour stop blocking a general election on it.

Tue, 2019-10-29 07:47

#1049

NDPP

Brexit is No Right Wing Coup, But the Means of Escaping the EU's Neo-Liberal Economics that are Harming Our Planet

https://t.co/lZ57jCydY7

"The mainstream media, New Labour, the Yellow Tories and the Establishment, would have you believe that Brexit is somehow a right-wing coup. The EU has become a dictatorial imposer of austerity and deregulation, uncaring about its impacts on the well-being of people and planet, and determined to derail any elected government that dares to dissent from its neoliberal ideology..."

All over the world they fight against neoliberalism. But here on this 'progressive' board they fight to retain it.

Tue, 2019-10-29 07:53

#1050

josh

Labor will support a December election.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/29/downing-street-signals-compromise-on-potential-general-election-date

Tue, 2019-10-29 08:05

#1051

NDPP

Boris Johnson's Withdrawal Agreement Does Not Amount To Leaving the European Union

https://www.thefullbrexit.com/johnson-wa-reject

"The Withdrawal Agreement (WA) between Boris Johnson and the European Union agreed this month is not Brexit. On the contrary, the agreement ties us into the neoliberal policies of the European Union at the expense of Britain's democratic self-government..."

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