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Do you understand the Kurdish story?

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Fri, 2019-10-25 21:48

#1

Unionist

Do you understand the Kurdish story?

I don't.

Turkey Warns U.S. Against Hosting Syrian Kurdish Military Commander

Quote:

Turkey is demanding that U.S. officials call off plans to meet with Mazloum Abdi, the Kurdish commander-in-chief of the Syrian Democratic Forces which fought alongside American troops to dislodge Islamic State insurgents from northeastern Syria.

"Our allies' dialogue with a terrorist wanted with a red notice is unacceptable," Turkish foreign minister Mevut Cavusoglu told Turkey's state-run Anadolu news agency Friday.

Turkish officials label Abdi, whose given name is Ferhat Abdi Şahin, a terrorist and link him to a separatist insurgency in Turkey known as the PKK, or Kurdish Workers Party. The U.S. State Department lists the PKK as a foreign terrorist organization.

"He is wanted for multiple terror attacks targeting the Turkish security forces, a NATO army, as well as civilians," Fahrettin Altun, Turkey's Director of Communications, told the Anadolu agency.

President Trump spoke with SDF commander by telephone on Wednesday and afterward praised the Kurdish general's "courage" in a tweet and addressed him directly, writing, "I look forward to seeing you soon."

Abdi, for his part, tweeted on Thursday that Trump had invited him to visit the U.S. "According to the circumstances on the ground," he added, "I will decide what to do in coming days."

Fri, 2019-10-25 22:01

#2

Sean in Ottawa

Without getting into the debate about whether the US should ever have been there at all or what the Kurdish groups ought to be labeled as (or the Americans for that matter).

The key theme in this story that does seem widely understood is that the US fought with allied with and supplied Kurds who they just sold out to be slaughtered.

Either they should not have been allied with them or they should not have sold them out are questions for debate. However, there is little debate about the fact that they did both and that is why it is a scandal.

Sat, 2019-10-26 09:14

(Reply to #2) #3

Unionist

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

The key theme in this story that does seem widely understood is that the US fought with allied with and supplied Kurds who they just sold out to be slaughtered.

So, I've been looking for evidence that Kurds have been in the past, or are now being, "slaughtered". Got any credible links? Serious question.

Sat, 2019-10-26 09:33

#4

NDPP

The Guardian of course!

The Kurds Have Faced Their Own 'Endless War. And This is a Dark New Chapter*

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/14/kurds-endless-war-...

"Since 1984 nearly 50,000 kurds have been killed in the conflict with Turkey..."

*may not be exactly as advertised.

Sat, 2019-10-26 13:10

(Reply to #4) #5

Unionist

NDPP wrote:

"Since 1984 nearly 50,000 kurds have been killed in the conflict with Turkey..."

Thanks, NDPP. Good example of the kind of uninformative piece that is frustrating my efforts to get any information.

The author of this opinion piece: "Giran Ozcan is the Peoples’ Democratic party (HDP) representative to the USA and is based in Washington. The HDP is a pro-Kurdish, pro-minority political party in Turkey."

As for the headline, here's what the article actually says: "Since then, almost 50,000 people have been killed – mostly Kurdish and on the side of the PKK – after war broke out in 1984."

Sounds like military conflicts - even if the 50,000 figure (over 35 years) is accurate. Interestingly, there is no allegation of deliberate slaughter of civilians or non-combattants.

So asking my babble hive:

Does anyone have any information about slaughter of Kurds by Turkey (or any other regime)?

Sat, 2019-10-26 13:29

#6

kropotkin1951

This is a piece explaining a process that was initiated under the European Court of Human Rights. The Kurds seem to be a perfect example of one person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist. This and most other articles deal with the Turkish states abuse of its own Turkish people within its borders. Everything from banning their language to expunging the term Kurd from official usage. I think that so far the Kurdish in Northern Syria have not had their cities or villages wiped out but have defended them from all hostile invaders.

The ECtHR judgment was especially important because, as the first of its kind relating to displacement in the southeast of Turkey, it established a true record of events and provided compensation. It stated clearly that the Turkish army had been responsible for driving law-abiding farming families from their homes. It provided substantial compensation for material losses, as well as non-pecuniary damages for the trauma of the displacement. Displaced villagers who had for years been chased away from the offices of government officials and local prosecutors now had somewhere they could apply for justice and expect a fair hearing. In other ECtHR decisions after Akdivar, the court held that Turkish security forces had burned Kurdish villagers’ homes and/or forcibly evacuated them.16 There were also friendly settlements—agreements to settle the dispute without a court judgment— during this period, in which the Turkish government paid substantial sums to displaced persons.17 The damages awarded by the court and the settlements reached between the parties averaged, in mid-2005, TL 82,591 ($55,336) per family. According to the Ministry of Justice in 2001, at that time there were 1,500 cases involving house destruction in the southeast that were pending against Turkey before the ECtHR.18

These cases were of great concern to the Turkish government because they threatened to result in repeated court findings of Turkish military responsibility for the destruction of houses in the southeast and in substantial damages being awarded to the plaintiffs, as well as reprimands from the Council of Europe’s Committee of Ministers. The large number of cases pending before the ECtHR may have been a determining factor in the Turkish government’s decision to enact the Compensation Law.

https://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/eca/turkey1206/3.htm#_Toc152994672

Sat, 2019-10-26 14:19

#7

NDPP

Good luck with your search and answers to your question U. Certainly, I have posted some information to the Syria thread, though not specifically dealing with the question of massacres. 'The Kurds' clearly doesn't do justice to the tangled skein of threads , competing narratives and perspectives on this subject out there right now. As one example this from an 'Assyrian' news site:

The Truth About Kurds in Syria

http://www.aina.org/news/20191025175432.htm

"...The YPG/PKK and much of the international media spread many falsehoods in an attempt to confuse the public and distort historical and current realities. This appears to be one of the greatest and most alarming disinformation campaigns by the media in history."

Sat, 2019-10-26 14:23

(Reply to #7) #8

Webgear

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Without getting into the debate about whether the US should ever have been there at all or what the Kurdish groups ought to be labeled as (or the Americans for that matter).

The key theme in this story that does seem widely understood is that the US fought with allied with and supplied Kurds who they just sold out to be slaughtered.

Either they should not have been allied with them or they should not have sold them out are questions for debate. However, there is little debate about the fact that they did both and that is why it is a scandal.

The Kurds were first sold out in the fall of 2017 in Iraq by the USA and their allies. This is just the most recent betrayal of the Kurds by the West.

Sat, 2019-10-26 14:36

(Reply to #8) #9

voice of the damned

NDPP wrote:

Good luck with your search and answers to your question U. Certainly, I have posted some information to the Syria thread, though not specifically dealing with the question of massacres. 'The Kurds' clearly doesn't do justice to the tangled skein of threads , competing narratives and perspectives on this subject out there right now. As one example this from an 'Assyrian' news site:

The Truth About Kurds in Syria

http://www.aina.org/news/20191025175432.htm

"...The YPG/PKK and much of the international media spread many falsehoods in an attempt to confuse the public and distort historical and current realities. This appears to be one of the greatest and most alarming disinformation campaigns by the media in history."

I've seen that website before, and then as now, I'm taking it with a grain of salt. They're pretty clearly an Assyrian/Christian chauvinist outfit, and appear to FAVOUR western intervention when it suits the interests of their group...

US, Europe Must Arm the Assyrians, Provide Immediate Humanitarian Aid

https://tinyurl.com/yyovq4m9

And their "op-ed" section contains diatribes about how Muslim immigration is ruining the west, Christians in the USA and Europe are victims of discrimination etc.

https://tinyurl.com/y4r5x854

Sat, 2019-10-26 14:41

voice of the damned

They seem to like this Peter Ahern guy...

President Trump will attract a lot more flak over his executive order in months to come. Perhaps there are ways that it can be more tidily designed and implemented. But he has got the fundamental principles right. Majority Christian nations should adopt immigration policies which preserve and protect their own harmony and social cohesion and they should help out their Christian brothers and sisters. The best way to do this is to prioritize Christians in refugee policy.

And yes, I am well aware that Christians suffer MAJOR injustices in the Middle East, and are well deserving of consideration in refugee policies. I'm pretty sure, however, that Ahern did not simply come to his "More Christians, fewer Muslims" conclusion from objectively analyzing the raw data.

https://tinyurl.com/yx9ek6qa

Sat, 2019-10-26 15:16

NDPP

Rabble.ca also published an important piece on the topic in 2017 by the acclaimed and knowledgeable Jonathan Cook:

How Kurdish Independence Underpins Israel's Plan to Reshape the Middle East

http://rabble.ca/news/2017/10/how-kurdish-independence-underpins-israel%...

"Israel views the Kurds as a key ally in an Arab-dominated region. Last month at the Herzlya conference, an annual jamboree for Israel's security establishment, justice minister Ayelet Shaked called for a Kurdish state. She has stated that it would be integral to Israeli efforts to 'reshape' the Middle East."

Sat, 2019-10-26 15:18

(Reply to #11) #12

bekayne

voice of the damned wrote:

NDPP wrote:

Good luck with your search and answers to your question U. Certainly, I have posted some information to the Syria thread, though not specifically dealing with the question of massacres. 'The Kurds' clearly doesn't do justice to the tangled skein of threads , competing narratives and perspectives on this subject out there right now. As one example this from an 'Assyrian' news site:

The Truth About Kurds in Syria

http://www.aina.org/news/20191025175432.htm

"...The YPG/PKK and much of the international media spread many falsehoods in an attempt to confuse the public and distort historical and current realities. This appears to be one of the greatest and most alarming disinformation campaigns by the media in history."

I've seen that website before, and then as now, I'm taking it with a grain of salt. They're pretty clearly an Assyrian/Christian chauvinist outfit, and appear to FAVOUR western intervention when it suits the interests of their group...

US, Europe Must Arm the Assyrians, Provide Immediate Humanitarian Aid

https://tinyurl.com/yyovq4m9

And their "op-ed" section contains diatribes about how Muslim immigration is ruining the west, Christians in the USA and Europe are victims of discrimination etc.

https://tinyurl.com/y4r5x854

The fact the article originally appeared in Robert Spencer's Jihad Watch should have been a red flag.

Sat, 2019-10-26 15:20

Sean in Ottawa

The situation with the Kurds is complicated by the identities of the countries they are in that mostly excludes them as a part of the national identity. For this reason they, through their very existence, are a threat.

A number of countries have imposes a form or retaliatory collective punishment on the community when there have been nationalists speak out. The problem of course is that no community would be able to control this. The reaction only hardens attitudes among Kurds and makes it impossible to control more speaking out and more reaction as the circle continues.

One exception to this is Iran. One of the 20th century Shahs rebranded Persia as Iran which is more inclusive as the Persians are one of many groups therewith majorities in parts of the country. While and Kurish state project is viewed as a threat, their existence in Iran is not an existential threat to the boundaries of the region. They are in the same category there as Azeris and Bluchistanies (if I am spelling this correctly).

In Iran many Kurds are Sunnis and they suffer to some degree with other Sunnis but not on account of being Kurds per se and Kurds there (if Shia) do make it to the top of power.

I think it will be very difficult to distinguish when people are dying who started it and connect all the regions but there are certainly examples of large volumes of Kurds dying by being attacked by some of these countries. This has inspired a strong nationalism that only ncreases the liklihood of the next event.

There has also been musings from imperialist countries that have made matters more complicated to the effect that a Kurdish state ought to have been created out of the embers of the Ottoman empire when Europeans carved up the region in their own interest. Naturally any state that is presently there is quite uncomfortable and threatened.

Yes complicated.

Really this story is not unique though when you look at global history - particularly where imperialist forces have remade places to their own interest and dominated any political evolution of the region.

Sat, 2019-10-26 15:52

voice of the damned

Bekayne wrote:

The fact the article originally appeared in Robert Spencer's Jihad Watch should have been a red flag.

And Spencer apparently works for the David Horowitz Freedom Center.

Sat, 2019-10-26 19:30

NDPP

Blowback: US-Armed 'Moderate Rebels' Slaughter Kurds in Syria

https://youtu.be/IjSnPMCch3g

Max Blumenthal and Aaron Mate discuss 'moderate rebels' and outrage over Turkey's atrocities against Kurdish civilians. It remains a developmental task for Canadian progressives to come to terms with their own continuing collaboration and complicity in the western project to destroy and dismember Syria.