Quebec anglophones are Quebecois too, aren't they?
I sure hope so! Though I do speak both languages now. What's the definition of an "anglophone"? For that matter, what's the definition of a "Québécois"?
The longer I live, the less I know.
Will Quebec Left Ever Rise with NDPQ or QS?
Wed, 2019-12-04 22:42
#52
Thu, 2019-12-05 07:37
#53
I certainly hope so. However, there are some who would vehemently deny it. For example, Leonard Cohen was certainly a beloved Québécois artist, while Mordechai Richler, from the same Eastern-European Jewish background, would problably not have viewed himself as such. Though now passions have cooled and the library in Mile-End, where many his stories were set, has been named after him, along with other tributes.
We must not forget longstanding anglophone communities in certain rural areas, whose reality is very different.
Thu, 2019-12-05 08:49
#54
I certainly hope so. However, there are some who would vehemently deny it. For example, Leonard Cohen was certainly a beloved Québécois artist, while Mordechai Richler, from the same Eastern-European Jewish background, would problably not have viewed himself as such. Though now passions have cooled and the library in Mile-End, where many his stories were set, has been named after him, along with other tributes.
We must not forget longstanding anglophone communities in certain rural areas, whose reality is very different.
Québécois(es) - Quebecers - are people who live in Québec. You know, like Albertans are people who live in Alberta. Canadians are people who live in Canada. We don't categorize people by how they feel about themselves. And what's with your Cohen and Richler examples? What does Eastern-European Jewish background have to do with anything?
So with all the respect and friendship I feel for you, lagatta, I have no clue what you're talking about.
Thu, 2019-12-05 10:51
#55
I think she is referring to self-identification as opposed to classification.
Thu, 2019-12-05 11:32
#56
I think she is referring to self-identification as opposed to classification.
I also don't think she meant it to be relevant that both Cohen and Richler happen to be Jewish. They're just two examples of prominent anglo-Quebeckers, with differing approaches to self-identification as "Quebecois".
Thu, 2019-12-05 11:44
#57
I think the discussion of who is Quebecois is different from the example of who is Albertan, because nationalism has become tangled into the Quebecois identity. I am not a nationalist, I don't want Quebec to become a country (unlike the PQ and QS) and I don't grudgingly accept that Quebec will remain in Canada for the time being (unlike the CAQ.) I love Canada and I'm happy to live in this country.
I think that because of Quebec nationalism, its more of a question and I feel that there is more exclusivity when it comes to identity where you either identify as Quebecois or Canadian (whereas I'd assume that the majority of Albertans identify as Albertan and Canadian, the same is not true in Quebec.)
If your definition of Quebecois is someone who lives in Quebec then sure, I'm Quebecois. But when it comes to personal identification for me it goes Montrealer and Canadian.
Thu, 2019-12-05 12:10
#58
I think she is referring to self-identification as opposed to classification.
I don't think you get to be a Quebecer or a Canadian or an Albertan or a Montrealer through self-identification. It's about things like citizenship, residence, right to vote, obligation to pay taxes... Montrealers are Quebecers and Quebecers are Canadians whether they like it or not - unless and until they change that objective reality, whether individually, or through some collective act (like seceding from confederation).
How you see your own identity, what language you speak, who you hang out with, what religions you practise or abjure, all these and more are very important. But they don't make or break your reality as a Montrealer or Quebecer or Canadian.
My parents immigrated to Canada. My family moved to Québec. Anyone who questions whether I'm a real Canadian or a real Québécois (irrespective of how I feel) is expressing racism or some other kind of xenophobia. As progressive people, we have no choice but to fight against these conceptions of a "nation". In my opinion. Otherwise, we are lost.
Thu, 2019-12-05 12:18
#59
I think she is referring to self-identification as opposed to classification.
I also don't think she meant it to be relevant that both Cohen and Richler happen to be Jewish. They're just two examples of prominent anglo-Quebeckers, with differing approaches to self-identification as "Quebecois".
She didn't say "Jewish". She said "Eastern-European Jewish". If lagatta didn't mean that to be relevant to her comment, then I am bewildered as to why she mentioned it. Perhaps she could explain. Because I'm also of Eastern-European Jewish origin. So I'm interested.
Lagatta presumes that Richler (who, being dead, can't speak for himself) would not have described himself as a Quebecer - or a Québécois - not sure which she means, or both. She describes Cohen as a "beloved Québécois artist". It is perfectly clear to me what she means. I think she means that the "real" Québécois accept Cohen as one of their own, while they saw Richler as alien (because of his well-known views on various issues), but since his death, passions have cooled.
I read lagatta's brief comments as distinguishing between "real" Québécois and the rest of us. Otherwise, I don't even begin to understand the relevance of Cohen being a "beloved Québécois artist" (what does that mean??) vs. Richler being something else.
If I'm wrong about what lagatta was saying, I hope she will correct me. And I hope I'm wrong.
Thu, 2019-12-05 12:43
#60
She didn't say "Jewish". She said "Eastern-European Jewish". If lagatta didn't mean that to be relevant to her comment, then I am bewildered as to why she mentioned it. Perhaps she could explain. Because I'm also of Eastern-European Jewish origin. So I'm interested.
Oh, okay, I didn't see notice(or remember) that line from her post. I can think of some fairly innocuous reasons for her mentioning that, but I guess I'll let her speak for herself.
Thu, 2019-12-05 15:09
#61
swallow
La chose importante, c’est que 80% des anglophones disent qu’ils se définissent comme Québécois dans le sondage, une affirmation que nous n’aurions jamais faite il y a même une décennie. (Et c’est même plus que le nombre de personnes qui s’identifient comme Ontariens chez nos voisins).
Thu, 2019-12-05 19:07
#62
La chose importante, c’est que 80% des anglophones disent qu’ils se définissent comme Québécois dans le sondage, une affirmation que nous n’aurions jamais faite il y a même une décennie. (Et c’est même plus que le nombre de personnes qui s’identifient comme Ontariens chez nos voisins).
Fantastic find, swallow! I know Josh Freed personally - and I can't recall whether I saw this piece way back when. Beautiful, isn't it?
Thu, 2019-12-05 22:11
#63
HORRORS, Unionist. I do hope you don't think I have any prejudice against people of Eastern European Jewish origin! I worship Rosa and Emma. The difference is between a person who valued Québécois culture (obvious not every aspect of it, nor do I) and another, from the same ethnic and geographical background, who held francophone Québécois in deep contempt.
Edited to add, forgot to mention Lea, which is deeply absentminded on my part as I knew her personally.
Thu, 2019-12-05 22:14
#64
As for Josh Freed, I do know him personally, if not very well. Mostly about utilitarian cyclist/pedestrian activism. And I'm very happy to see that his outlook on belonging has changed, also because there are so many people from different origins who view themselves as Québécois.
Thu, 2019-12-05 22:15
#65
swallow
Wasn't Mordechai Richler part of Quebecois culture himself?
Thu, 2019-12-05 22:51
#66
swallow
I cannot resist sharing this piece from Maclean's where Richler describes himself as Quebecois.
https://archive.macleans.ca/article/1978/6/12/o-israel-quebec-and-canada-i-stand-on-guard-for-ye
I've not yet read any of the new translations but was interested to see that the publishing house Boreal now describes Richler as "l’un des plus grands écrivains québécois." Perhaps there's room for all of us ici after all.
Fri, 2019-12-06 03:15
#67
I always thought he kind of had it in for Quebecois culture, and francophone Quebecois culture in particular. What was his issue with francophones anyway?Wasn't Mordechai Richler part of Quebecois culture himself?
Fri, 2019-12-06 10:43
#68
swallow
Richler was himself a producer of Quebecoise culture. So no, he did not have it in for Quebecoise culture, unless you define Quebecois as including only francophone, in which case it is at least arguable.
Many do define Quebecois as francophone only. Most Quebec anglos do not. Modern publishers and cultural producers mostly do not. I hope babblers do not. That is the entire point of all my posts on this thread.
Apologies for the thread derailment, but how the Quebec left defines Quebecois is perhaps a key aspect of its future. The younger left is often post-nationalist. The older, Pequiste-generation left retains a francophone-Quebecois-nationalism that I think hampers its prospects. QS tends to favour the post-nationalist side, or at least it has until this year.
Fri, 2019-12-06 11:21
#69
Richler didn't hate Francophones. He just dared to disagree with Quebec nationalism and loi 101. Years ago I looked through all the supposed "disgusting" things he's said and there was only 1 that I would really class as inappropriate. He claimed that the PQ sang a version of a Hitler Youth song (which he later acknowledged was one of the stupidest things he ever said, he acknowledged that he should've looked into whether it was true rather than just take Irwin Cotler's word (who was the person who originated this claim) and apologized.) Everything else Richler is criticized for is nonsense.
Meanwhile you had Richler being compared to a Nazi and one of his books being referred to as Mein Kampf by elected politicians. You had him being disrespected for years still not receiving any tribute by the province of Quebec (despite being the most world renowned author from Quebec in our history.) You had the city of Montreal giving him a slap in the face as a tribute by naming an old dilapidated gazebo after him (though in fairness after the city's anglophone community expressed their displeasure to this "tribute" Coderre did the right thing and named the Mile End Library after him which was a great tribute.) Things are slowly changing, but he'll never get the respect he deserves as an author.
Also, Lionel Groulx was a racist and the fact that he still has a metro station named after him is disgusting.
Fri, 2019-12-06 11:41
#70
I believe Richler also said that the Lower Canada rebels had a plan to slaughter Jews, which was completely untrue and in fact radically misstated their actual views on religious freedom.
(Then again, Richler was also the guy who reported that Edmonton has a paucity of trees, based on what he could see from a downtown hotel room. In fact, a minute's walk from that hotel would have shown him enough trees to last a lifetime.)
Fri, 2019-12-06 16:03
#71
Richler was himself a producer of Quebecoise culture. So no, he did not have it in for Quebecoise culture, unless you define Quebecois as including only francophone, in which case it is at least arguable.
Many do define Quebecois as francophone only. Most Quebec anglos do not. Modern publishers and cultural producers mostly do not. I hope babblers do not. That is the entire point of all my posts on this thread.
Apologies for the thread derailment, but how the Quebec left defines Quebecois is perhaps a key aspect of its future. The younger left is often post-nationalist. The older, Pequiste-generation left retains a francophone-Quebecois-nationalism that I think hampers its prospects. QS tends to favour the post-nationalist side, or at least it has until this year.
I agree with all of that - and that has been the main point of all my posts since lagatta mentioned Cohen and Richler.