China

Sean only some HK activists carry imperial symbols. I don't trust them. I do trust the fact they are in the minority. I also know that well trained minorities in all chaotic breakdowns in society often end up in control when the dust settles. Not recognizing the difference between normal citizens protesting in the streets and modern day brown shirts is far more dangerous IMO. There is no black and white in anything and to not recognize the regime change NGO's presence in inciting the rioting would be like ignoring the idea that some of the people in the streets might be CPC agent provocateurs.

Freedom and democracy are illusive terms. The thing I find fascinating is that HK which has a very limited form of democracy under the one country, two systems laws is still more democratic than under British rule.

I will continue to poke holes in the imperial messaging that calls all HK demonstrators freedom fighters when it is clear that some of them are brown shirts.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean only some HK activists carry imperial symbols. I don't trust them. I do trust the fact they are in the minority. I also know that well trained minorities in all chaotic breakdowns in society often end up in control when the dust settles. Not recognizing the difference between normal citizens protesting in the streets and modern day brown shirts is far more dangerous IMO. There is no black and white in anything and to not recognize the regime change NGO's presence in inciting the rioting would be like ignoring the idea that some of the people in the streets might be CPC agent provocateurs.

Freedom and democracy are illusive terms. The thing I find fascinating is that HK which has a very limited form of democracy under the one country, two systems laws is still more democratic than under British rule.

I will continue to poke holes in the imperial messaging that calls all HK demonstrators freedom fighters when it is clear that some of them are brown shirts.

I agree with all you say here. I do not think I have contradicted any of it. I do not agree with the promoting of this as a giant US conspiracy which is what a number of posts have done here. 

I do not think that one form of flawed democracy can be particularly measured against another. Hong Kong was a colony that had greater personal freedoms than it has now amid what was a racist system although fewer political freedoms. I do not agree with those who think people should have to choose between these.

I also believe in the right to self determination something people speak about on this site with respect to Quebec and Catalonia but refuse to extend in sympathy in less politically correct places. Hong Kong has expressed considerable desire for self determination despite never having it from either the British nor the present. I do not think that a comparison between those two addresses this desire or negates it.

The essential problem with the right to self determination is the inevitable interest of others and interference. Thus, I am in the position where I sympathise with the protestors and think support in places like this is not a problem but I do not support governments (Canada, US or others) taking the same position of support of encouragement. I know it sounds like a tightrope and it is. That is what it means to respect this. It is not self determination if the defining power of support comes from outside any more than it is when the inside does not allow it.

I feel for the protestors becuase both sides are pressing them in a battle little to do with them that is overtaking their own positions globally. 

Results of HKSAR District Council Elections Announced

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-11-25/Results-of-HKSAR-district-council-...

"...Hong Kong affairs are purely China's internal affairs. No foreign government, organization or individual has the right to interfere,' said Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Geng Shuang, reiterating Beijing's unwavering support for Chief Executive Carrie Lam in leading the SAR government. Lam said in a statement that the government respected the results and wished 'the peaceful, safe and orderly situation to continue.'

'There are various analyses and interpretations in the community in relation to the results, and quite a few are of the view that the results reflect people's dissatisfaction with the current situation and the deep-seated problems in society,' she said. The government would 'listen to the opinions of members of the public humbly and sincerely,' Lam said..."

"Yes, HK district elections a landslide win for pan-democratic camp. Yes, 57% vs 41% shows pro-establishment camp do not have majority. Yes, the vote numbers show Hong Kong is divided."

https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/1198831524965048320

..this was reported on democracy now.

Hong Kong: Pro-Democracy Candidates Win Nearly 90% Seats in Local Elections

In Hong Kong, millions of people went to the polls for district elections Sunday, handing pro-democracy candidates a stunning victory. Pro-democracy candidates won nearly 90 percent of the seats—400 of the 452 seats—amid the ongoing, massive pro-democracy protests that have rocked the Chinese-ruled territory. This is one of the winning candidates, Kelvin Lam.

Kelvin Lam: “The voters are not happy with how the government dealt with the protests so far. Particularly in the last five months, and police brutality is actually over the top, I think. And I think that the Hong Kong people should really, really leverage on this result. To ask for more democracy in the future.”

..i'm confused. if the pro dem side won 90% of the seats..where does 57 - 41 come into play?

..btw 71.2% vote turnout. 

..comment from the ndpp piece

Is your interpretation of the chart confusing on purpose? It’s 77% pro-democracy, 23% everybody else. "57%" and "41%" are not the results, but how much votes one won and the other lost.

WATCH: "Hong Kong protesters set fire to a Maxim Caterers restaurant inside a shopping mall. They will not stop violence and vandalism after winning District Council elections, they will just legalize the violence and vandalism by protesters."

https://twitter.com/liamstone_19/status/1199369663966109696

WATCH "Do the US and the UK care about Hong Kong's future?"

https://twitter.com/ChinaDaily/status/1199300518683779075

"I've said it before, as have others, but the ease with which people believe outrageous lies, exaggerations and blatant fear-mongering about China is extremely worrying and it seems to be getting worse. This is a concerted campaign with the clear intention of laying the foundations for further imperialist aggression against China in the future and people seem absolutely ignorant or unbothered by this terrifying and crucial context..."

https://twitter.com/Louis_Allday/status/1199336084657721348

..ok got it. txs krop! popular vote is what i was missing.

..from the wiki page

Elected

pro dem - 388 - up 265

pro beij - 62 - down 242

WATCH: "Hong Kong protesters waving USA flags and holding a banner 'President Trump, let's make Hong Kong great again.' HK protesters successfully made HK economy fall into recesssion in just 5 months. Great recession again."

https://twitter.com/liamstone_19/status/1201062723259252741

Why Are Ukrainian Neo-Nazis Joining the Hong Kong Protests?

https://t.co/f1uIi41xDT

https://sptnkne.ws/A9zM

"Prominent Ukrainian neo-Nazi figures have been spotted in the Hong Kong protests just weeks after hosting an 'academy of street protest' in Kiev. Leaders of far-right Ukrainian groups that rose to prominence in the 2014 coup d'etat they helped orchestrate, including the Azov Battalion and Right Sektor, have recently traveled to Hong Kong to participate in the anti-Beijing protests there.

It's uncertain why the groups, sporting the apparel of a far-right hooligan group called 'Honor or Goner', have gone to Hong Kong, but the fact that both the 2014 Ukrainian coup and the present protests in Hong Kong have enjoyed extensive support from the CIA-spawned National Endowment for Democracy (NED), may give a clue..."

Sanctions Announced (and vid)

https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/1201907858373300224

"The US is expanding its hybrid warfare against China, so Beijing responded by sanctioning the most important groups in the regime-change machine: NED, HRW, Freedom House, NDI, IRI. These are coup-mongering arms of US imperialist soft-power."

WORKERS’ SOLIDARITY VS GEOPOLITICS

I have found myself at odds recently with some on the left who take what we might call the ‘geopolitical approach’ to assessing popular movements and working class struggles across the world. Those who take this approach seem to keep one list of places where social mobilization can be supported and another where taking to the streets is considered massively inconvenient, if not utterly impermissible. In countries on the first list, protests against austerity measures or price increases are heroic and point the way forward while similar activity in places on the second list must be considered the work of agents of the US State Department.

Now, I’m far from suggesting that reactionaries and devotees of the Washington Consensus never hold protests. We only have to look at recent developments in Venezuela and Bolivia to see that. However, this doesn’t mean that working class struggle can or should be declared off limits when regimes disliked by US led western imperialism face movements that express real social, political and economic grievances. Yet, there are those who feel exactly this way. Recently, I posted an article on my own Facebook page about the uprising in Iran that included a powerful photo of a street battle with police. One person responded with the comment ‘CIA’ and, not to be outdone, another added, ‘Mossad.’ I would suggest that, at very least, a somewhat more serious examination of the driving forces involved is called for before those taking to the streets can be assigned the role of puppets of western intelligence agencies.

Global Uprising

In the present period, a veritable global rebellion is unfolding against the neoliberal order. In country after country, people have decided, after decades of austerity and exploitation, that they can stand no more. Different factors are sparking this social resistance and immediate demands and objectives may vary but the common thread is a sense that life has become intolerable and that mass action is a necessity. In this context, it becomes especially problematic to compartmentalize these uprisings and support or oppose them according to whether or not Washington and its allies approve of the political regimes people are challenging. I dare to suggest that international struggles may still require our solidarity, even if western media sources and governments are saying supportive things about them for their own rotten reasons. I’m going to argue that it is a profound mistake to subordinate the class struggle to a geopolitical chess game....

'I Am Dying, Please Help Me'

https://twitter.com/melngai416/status/1199591222202916864

"The Sinophobia, xenophobia and brainwashing starts at an early age. Hong Kong schools ladies and gents...completely explains their way of thinking/teaching and the 'movement' going on right now. Not the HK I used to know anymore. RIP good ol Hong Kong."

'Locust World' (and vid)

https://twitter.com/skboz/status/1198077734204788738

"Racism of the HK Movement: 'Locus World'. When you hear explanations of how great freedom and democracy do not forget racism is the fuel of hk protests. Opposed to racism and discrimination, all ppl are human and not insects."

Also supported by dog-whistled western liberals,  Ukraine's US-backed regime change operation styled as the 'Revolution of Dignity', similarly portrayed resisters and ethic Russians as 'insects'. Unsurprising then the presence of Ukrainian neo-Nazi led 'protest schools' and repeated showings of the Maidan ultranationalist propaganda film 'Winter on Fire' there. Or the latest round of China bashing here...

Burning Ukraine's Protesters Alive (2014)

https://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13930220001674

"The crowd outside mocked them as red-and-black Colorado beetles with the chant of 'Burn, Colorados, burn..."

Shall we all sing along?

https://youtu.be/XfKB0A29aRI

Hong Kong deports writer and migrant worker Yuli Riswati

Yuli Riswati, an award-winning Indonesian reporter and migrant domestic worker who has played a vital role in documenting Hong Kong’s ongoing political crisis, has been deported by Hong Kong immigration authorities this afternoon under the pretext of an unrenewed work visa, following an inhumane detention of 28 days. Her circumstances are a reminder of the many forms of state violence faced by migrant domestic workers in Hong Kong—and all Hongkongers should take notice.

Yuli—who has lived in Hong Kong for ten years—has paid close attention to the unfolding of this year’s movement from its very start. Realizing that many workers were not well-informed about the protests, owing to a lack of coverage in Bahasa Indonesia, she took it upon herself to interview demonstrators, take pictures of actions, and translate local news into Bahasa Indonesia. Her work has been published in Migran Pos and Suara. As she has explained, her goal was to inform her compatriots about the movement, so they could get around the unintended disturbances caused by protest actions, and would not be misled by biased or false reporting.

The circumstances under which Yuli was deported are highly unusual, and without a doubt politically motivated. After signing a two-year employment contract earlier this year, Yuli renewed her passport but did not renew her visa. According to the Hong Kong Federation of Asian Domestic Workers Unions (FADWU), this common situation is usually resolved when the employer confirms that the worker is still employed in a letter to the Immigration Department. In almost all cases, workers are able to get their visas renewed without hassle so long as the migrant worker is under contract. Instead, Yuli was arrested at her workplace, intimidated by officers to cancel her work visa, and detained without medical attention despite her employer’s legal appeals—in a clear demonstration of the Immigration Department’s unregulated executive overreach....

..related

Domestic workers search for rights amid Hong Kong’s protests

quote:

Dependent on an abusive system

According to a 2018 Hong Kong census, there are 386,075 migrant workers in Hong Kong. 

They live in a precarious state—they are often overworked, underpaid and lack protective labour policies, said Eman Villanueva, a migrant worker from the Philippines and spokesperson for the Asian Migrants Coordinating Body. 

Unlike expatriates from other foreign countries who are eligible to apply for residency after seven years, Southeast Asian migrant workers have no legal route to citizenship. 

“Because of the existing government policies with regards to visas, we are all temporary migrants,” said Villanueva, who has worked in Hong Kong for 28 years.

..neither piece blamed the central gov krop. why make that assumption? here's the connection though from the migrant workers piece.

Against the backdrop of the so-called pro-democracy protest movement that started in June in opposition to a proposed Chinese extradition bill, some migrant workers feel even more vulnerable.

..i don't know what the majority of people reading it think but this is where the hong kong discussion in relation to china has been going on. the pieces i posted are connected to that discussion. 

..i've reconsidered and will follow the debate whichever thread that may be in.

..i agree hong kong is part of china. 

epaulo13 wrote:

..i agree hong kong is part of china. 

Of course it is but it has a different system and the Chinese central government is not in charge on any day to day basis. Its like putting a thread about Puerto Rico in a thread entitled USA. Frankly I don't care that much it was just a suggestion.

..from the #485 post

“The Hong Kong Card”: Against the New Cold War

quote:

This set of demands indexes precisely the explosive fear and resentment built up over decades of dissatisfaction with institutions in Hong Kong society, ones which happen to be holdovers from the colonial era. The PRC has been more than willing to retain the British-trained police force as well as a rigged legislature that stacks voting in favor of its trade-based “functional constituencies” in service of British colonial capital and Chinese state capital. Government invocation of the Emergency Regulations Ordinance (ERO)—essentially martial law—on October 4 crystallizes this continuity between coercive regimes and the coloniality of “rule of law” as an under-interrogated ideological fixture in semi-autonomous Hong Kong. The momentous occasion of colonial relinquishment in 1997 only obfuscates a reality in which sustaining and renewing colonial infrastructures seamlessly institutionalizes and safeguards the collusion between government and business interests. Meanwhile, the militarized police force secured the passing of the colonial baton. Against this triangulation of power, protesters’ demands urgently contest concepts and practices of state violence. They call into question longstanding mechanisms of control as part and parcel of the full realization of democratic potential. 

FAIR: With People in the Streets Worldwide, Media Focus Uniquely on Hong Kong

https://fair.org/home/with-people-in-the-streets-worldwide-media-focus-u...

"...In total there have been 737 stories on the Hong Kong protests, 12 on Ecuador, 28 on Haiti and 36 on Chile. As the graph illustrates, but the Times and CNN had similar ratios of coverage. This enormous disparity cannot be explained by the other protests' size or significance, nor the severity of the repression meted out..."

'The Revolution is Not Being Televised'

https://twitter.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1203439672531312641

"When official enemies can be presented as evil and allies as sympathetic victims, corporate media will be very interested in a story."

A part of the crowd that turned out today to mark six months of struggle for the movement in Hong Kong.

Cynthia Chung: NATO Secretary General Targets 'Rising China': Why Cold War Newspeak Never Went Away

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2019/12/11/nato-secretary-general...

"...We need to grow up and grow up fast. We cannot afford to be led by childish stories of the boogeyman and be governed by fear so easily any longer. We have become the backwards culture. We have become the barbaric culture that only knows war and is a disbeliever in peace. We who are privileged enough to never have experienced war in our homelands for almost a century, are the ones who condone it as necessary on others. What an ugly belief this is..."

The US Government's Distrust of China Has Mutated Into Distrust of Chinese Americans

https://twitter.com/catcontentonly/status/1204619564534968320

"Oh wow, who could have seen this coming?"