Jeremy Corbyn rated top anti-Semite of 2019

Ken Burch wrote:

No one is saying you can't post "dissenting views".  You just need to make a clear and absolute distinction between Zionists, on the one hand, and people who simply happen to be Jewish on the other.  Not that hard to do.

The point of some of my posts including the one above yours is that I find it very difficult to talk about a self proclaimed theocratic state and not use its own language.  What I find obscene is the Israeli fascists using the German fascists' murder of millions as a shield against any talk about genocide against Palestians.

The majority of people killed by NAZI's were indeed Jewish but if I had been alive in that era in Germany I would have been targeted as an anarchist and likely have gotten a bullet to the back of the head long before the gas chambers were built, my oldest son would have been murdered long before the gas chambers were built because disabled people were the gateway drug to mass euthanasia for eugenic reasons, my Jewish sister in law would have been sent to the gas chambers as well as my gay brother. There are almost no survivors of the Holocaust left alive and from what I read a large number of them decry the Israeli governments polices and themselves make comparisons to the Holocaust. Could a Roma call Israelis NAZI's given their history during the Holocaust? I find the restriction on language difficult. It is like saying I can talk about ISIS but I cannot call them an Islamic terrorist group because of course murderous people of the Islamic faith are like murderous people of the Jewish faith in that they are not the only people who belong to those religions. How do I speak about the government of Myanmar without mentioning Buddhism?

If one looks at the Gaza Strip one sees a very large reservation where the IDF regularly kills anyone who opposes them. The death camps in Germany lasted for less than five years, Gaza inhabitants have been interned for over fifty years and the government that does it calls itself a Jewish state. So I can compare the Iranian theocratic state to NAZI's,  or I can compare the treatment of Ughers to the NAZI concentration camps  but if I claim the Israeli government is been running a NAZI like concentration camp I am antisemitic?

Israel is the point of the US spear and we allow it to set the agenda on how we can talk about its on going ethnic cleansing and genocide. That is the greatest problem IMO

NDPP wrote:

"If it's anti-Semitic to support life and liberty, to oppose mass mayhem and murder, to confront Israeli occupation, apartheid and slaughter, count me in...anti-Semitic all the way."

https://twitter.com/StanleyCohenLaw/status/1205707077613572098

It looks like NDPP now wants to be counted in as being antisemitic all the way!

JKR wrote:

NDPP wrote:

"If it's anti-Semitic to support life and liberty, to oppose mass mayhem and murder, to confront Israeli occupation, apartheid and slaughter, count me in...anti-Semitic all the way."

https://twitter.com/StanleyCohenLaw/status/1205707077613572098

It looks like NDPP now wants to be counted in as being antisemitic all the way!

You're missing the point of the quote NDPP cited.   And I assume you would agree that criticism of the Israeli government and what it does to Palestinians should never be considered antisemitism, and that non-Zionism should not be unless the person opposing Zionism is making it clear that their opposition is specifically grounded in hatred of Jews and Judaism and a wish for harm to come to that community.

JKR wrote:

NDPP wrote:

"If it's anti-Semitic to support life and liberty, to oppose mass mayhem and murder, to confront Israeli occupation, apartheid and slaughter, count me in...anti-Semitic all the way."

https://twitter.com/StanleyCohenLaw/status/1205707077613572098

It looks like NDPP now wants to be counted in as being antisemitic all the way!

I'm really sorry that I may have initiated this conversation.

For the record (our little babble record anyway): I do not believe for one split second that NDPP is any kind of "antisemite". I count him as an ally and a progressive on all fronts, irrespective of any particular differences of emphasis we may have.

Our ruling classes support Israel for one main reason, since 1948 if not long before (e.g. the Balfour Declaration): It gives imperialism a handy HQ in a strategic economic and geopolitical region and helps keep the Arab nations divided and weakened. They support and incite Israel for their own interests - not because some rich powerful Jews run our politicians.

One sad aspect of this rigged game is that it's so easy to stray into antisemitic-sounding propositions when one's motive is simply to oppose Israeli crimes, support Palestinian human rights, and fight the ugly censorship of pro-Palestinian opinion and activism as embodied (for example) in the IHRA "examples" of antisemitism. And yes, indeed, progressive Jews (and there are lots of us) have to deal with the enemy in our own midst - Jewish organizations that have morphed from (for example) the Canadian Jewish Congress into (after a coup in the early 2000s) the Centre of Israel and Jewish Advocacy. Israel first, you see.

So, my earnest wish: Let's keep our powder dry for our common enemies, and try to keep our own differences to a comradely tone of exchange.

And let me know when I fail to follow my own brilliant advice lol. Thanks.

NDPP]</p> <p>[quote=Ken Burch]</p> <p>[quote=NDPP wrote:

Gideon Levy: The Contract on Corbyn

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/premium-the-contract-on-corbyn-1.8192769

"The Jewish establishment in Britain and the Israeli propaganda machine have taken out a contract on the leader of the British Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn. The contract was taken out a long time agao, and it was clear that the closer Corbyn came to being elected prime minister, the harsher the conflict would get.

On Tuesday, it reached its climax in an article by the chief rabbi of Britain, Ephraim Mirvis in the Times. Mirvis has decided that the anxiety of British Jews over Corbyn is justified and he is not fit to be prime minister. He called on Jews not to vote for Labour in the election on Dec 12.

The new and efficient strategy of Israel and the Zionist establishment brands every seeker of justice as an anti-Semite, and any criticism of Israel as hatred of Jews...Are the Jews of Britain conditionally British? To whom is their loyalty? If the Jews of Britain and their chief rabbi were more honest and courageous, they would ask themselves: Isn't Israel's brutal occupation policy the strongest motive for anti-Semitism today?"

 

"If it's anti-Semitic to support life and liberty, to oppose mass mayhem and murder, to confront Israeli occupation, apartheid and slaughter, count me in...anti-Semitic all the way."

https://twitter.com/StanleyCohenLaw/status/1205707077613572098

I wouldn't normally make an issue of spelling, but it matters here.  In the link to the "Hit on Corbyn" story, it should be "Haaretz.com", not "Haartez.com".  With "Haaretz" misspelled, you can't go to the site.  Would you mind correcting that?

NDPP wrote:

Sorry. Corrected.

 

Thanks.

Unionist wrote:

For the record (our little babble record anyway): I do not believe for one split second that NDPP is any kind of "antisemite". I count him as an ally and a progressive on all fronts, irrespective of any particular differences of emphasis we may have.

Our ruling classes support Israel for one main reason, since 1948 if not long before (e.g. the Balfour Declaration): It gives imperialism a handy HQ in a strategic economic and geopolitical region and helps keep the Arab nations divided and weakened. They support and incite Israel for their own interests - not because some rich powerful Jews run our politicians.

One sad aspect of this rigged game is that it's so easy to stray into antisemitic-sounding propositions when one's motive is simply to oppose Israeli crimes, support Palestinian human rights, and fight the ugly censorship of pro-Palestinian opinion and activism as embodied (for example) in the IHRA "examples" of antisemitism. And yes, indeed, progressive Jews (and there are lots of us) have to deal with the enemy in our own midst - Jewish organizations that have morphed from (for example) the Canadian Jewish Congress into (after a coup in the early 2000s) the Centre of Israel and Jewish Advocacy. Israel first, you see.

So, my earnest wish: Let's keep our powder dry for our common enemies, and try to keep our own differences to a comradely tone of exchange.

And let me know when I fail to follow my own brilliant advice lol. Thanks.

I think equating Judaism with Zionism has immeasurably set back the cause of establishing peace in Israel and Palestine. I think some of the people who rightfully want to see the plight of Palestinians end, hate Israel for what Israel has done and their hatred of Israel has led them to be angry and even hate Jews in general. I think this anger and hatred toward Jews in general for the actions of Isreal is misplaced and counterproductive. I also think that as long as Judaism and Zionism are blurred the status quo of hatred and violence will continue in Israel and Palestine. I think defenders of Palestinians do Palestinians no favour when they blur Judaism and Zionism together and leave the impression of being antisemitic to very many people.

Zionists conflate Zionism and Judaism because it supports the cause of Zionism. On the other hand, conflating Judaism with Zionism undermines the case against Zionism as conflating the two is antisemitic. Zionists will always conflate Zionism and Judaism as it supports their cause.

NDPP wrote:

Perhaps when  I begin to see something more than a couple hundred standing against the more than 30,000 + who yearly 'Walk With Israel' through the streets of my city Toronto, 'the most Zionist community in the world',  or see serious opposition to the myriad of unprotested, pro-Israel events and functions attended by every politician in the vicinity, and the big billboards screaming out 'Buy Israel Bonds' gone will I share in the optimism.

UJA: Walk With Israel Toronto

http://ujafed.convio.net/site/PageNavigator/MainPage.html

 

What "optimism" are you refering to? JKR's post immediately before yours, to which I presume you are responding, simply states that Judaism should not be equated with Zionism. I don't see that as an optimistic or pessimistic statement, but rather just a statement about what connection the poster thinks we should, or should not, draw between a cultural group and a political ideology.

I understood NDPP's reference to "optimism" as I think he intended it, and although I don't detect much optimism around about defeating the Israeli settler colonial enterprise, I certainly agree that we need to get into action. I've been preaching this gospel for decades. It hasn't been easy (getting denounced for being a self-hating Jew), but nothing worthwhile is. I'm a supporter of BDS, a financial and bodily supporter of Independent Jewish Voices - I do what I can. I've helped get my union to adopt some decent positions. But every day, I feel pessimism. Those of you who are on Facebook should consider watching this wonderful webinar that we held a couple weeks ago with two 20-something Gaza activists from wearenotnumbers.org. At the end, I was left feeling morose, at the absence of leadership among the Palestinians, and at the absence of leadership in Canada. How the hell do we get out of this morass?

NDPP wrote:

Perhaps when  I begin to see something more than a couple hundred standing against the more than 30,000 + who yearly 'Walk With Israel' through the streets of my city Toronto, 'the most Zionist community in the world',....

Approximately 200,000 Jews live in the greater Toronto area so 30,000 is just a small minority of the Jews who live in Greater Toronto and many of the people "walking with Israel" may not be Jewish. I think it's safe to say 100% of them are Zionists. What is the benefit of conflating Zionism and Judaism? I think conflating Zionism and Judaism is only detrimental. Who benefits from proclaiming that Toronto is "the most Zionist city in the world" when people understand that Toronto is being targeted because it is the most Jewish city in Canada?

JKR wrote:

Approximately 200,000 Jews live in the greater Toronto area so 30,000 is just a small minority of the Jews who live in Greater Toronto and many of the people "walking with Israel" may not be Jewish. I think it's safe to say 100% of them are Zionists.

That is 15% of that population. So when was the last time a GTA protest got a million people out to a rally. That is the comparative number for a "small minority" of the general population going to a rally.

Aristotleded24 wrote:

NDPP wrote:

'Canada is An Unwavering Friend of Israel'

https://twitter.com/KentThornhillMP/status/1210380519554404357

Sometimes being a friend means telling the truth when your friend is behaving in a way that is destructive either to themselves or others around them.

[/quote]

True.  At this point, a more apt description would be "Canada and the U.S. are unwavering enablers of Israel".  For the Netanyahu regime, war and conquest are addictions.   All "the West" is doing is letting the addict sell the furniture to feed its addiction.

The No Difference Party in action.

https://mobile.twitter.com/mbueckert/status/1212469846925041665

Well that is unfortunate. Although not a fan of Singh winning the nomination, I did applaud how well he did during the election. This caving on an even-handed acknowledgement of the oppression of Palestinian people is very infuriating.

Steering this back towards an honest discussion of the smears which were used to destroy Corbyn's and Labour's chances during this election:https://medium.com/@rosselson/what-are-you-afraid-of-rabbi-mirvis-54e471...

From the link:  

"So let us ask instead why, after 36 blameless years as a Labour MP, these accusations only emerged when Corbyn was elected Labour Party leader in 2015; and why the Chief Rabbi is unleashing his attack at this crucial time when it will do most damage to the Labour Party."

"The United Synagogue, which, as Chief Rabbi, Mirvis represents, is the Orthodox (i.e. conservative) branch of UK Judaism. It has around 40,000 members out of a total Jewish population of around 250,000 so cannot claim to speak for the overwhelming majority of British Jews. It is a heavily Zionist body, ‘an active supporter of Israel’ (according to Wikipedia), sponsors trips to Israel, distributes ‘information’ packages (i.e. propaganda) about Israel on its website, opposes any recognition of a Palestinian state, rages against the BDS campaign. And proclaims as one of its core values ‘the centrality of Israel in Jewish life’.""

"Ponder on that. The centrality of Israel in Jewish life. Not God. Not justice. Not That which is hateful to you, do not do to another. Israel. A foreign state. And not any state but a militarised ethnocracy with its nuclear weapons and its helicopter gunships and its theft of land and water and its war against Palestinian children and its cruel collective punishment of the citizens of Gaza and its daily violations of international law; a state founded on the dispossession, expulsion and delegitimisation of the indigenous people, a state whose recently enacted Nation State law confirms its status as a racist state. Israel, state power, is placed at the heart of religious Judaism. Isn’t this a form of idolatry?"

Corbyn’s original sin in the eyes of the Zionist lobby is that he has been a campaigner for justice for Palestinians. As far as they are concerned, that’s enough to justify any action that undermines him and that prevents him from becoming Prime Minister. Labour Party policy on Palestine/Israel is not particularly radical. It doesn’t call for the right of return for Palestinian refugees, for example. In parts it is delusional — advocating a return to peace talks and a two-state solution. But it does call for an end to the blockade, occupation and settlements and promises that ‘a Labour government will immediately recognise the state of Palestine’. For the Zionist lobby, for Rabbi Mirvis and the United Synagogue, for the Jewish Labour Movement, for Labour Friends of Israel, for the Board of Deputies, for Zionist hacks like Jonathan Freedland whose snide articles in the Guardian have helped delegitimise Corbyn, this is completely unacceptable."

"When Rabbi Mirvis claims that the overwhelming majority of British Jews are ‘gripped by anxiety’ at the prospect of a Labour government, he may not be lying. But not because they fear anti-Jewish discriminatory actions or pogroms or anything like that. They’re not stupid. What they are afraid of is that a Corbyn-led Labour government might hold Israel to account for its crimes, might ban arm sales to Israel, might even support the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement. That must not happen. So they would far rather inflict a Tory Johnson-led government on the nation than accept as Prime Minister a man who has spoken up against Israel’s oppression of the Palestinians. Boris Johnson, after all, is a firm friend of Israel. And if, as a consequence of that, there are more children living in poverty, more people dying in the streets, more food banks, more NHS crises and privatisations, more carbon emissions — ? Collateral damage in the defence of the Jewish state."

In that essay, Leon Rosselson-whose grandfather was an Orthodox rabbi in the Pale, and who, as a young man, was himself a member of the Hashomir Hatzair Zionist organization-reminds us all that the smears about Corbyn were solely about the fear that a Labour government led by him would not be unquestioning defenders of the Likudnik status quo.

Beat me to that. I knew it was just a matter of time until Sanders would be named as "top antisemite" by Likudist racists. Making him a "self-hating antisemite". Ridiculous.