Hopefully in this new decade, more Canadians will realize how incredibly fortunate we are, not be living in a war zone.
(Obviously not talking about the unfortunate 57 Canadians who just died on Ukrainian flight PS752)
So who are the Iranian, Russian, USA & Canadian equivalents, eh!
How quickly we forget, eh!
https://rabble.ca/columnists/2020/01/politics-crashed-uia-flight-752
Investigators are saying they are upset at the use of buldozers clearing the crash site.
Update on the Ukrainian Plane Incident Near Tehran
"Reuters asks: 'Who ya gonna believe - me or your lying eyes?' Consider the above when you read reports in which anonymous officials allege that Iran shot down the Ukrainian flight PS752 over Tehran. That may have happened. But that is only one possible explanation for the accident. The crash may have been caused by technical or other issues. Rumors and assertion from anonymous officials are not evidence Neither are videos of unknown provenance. The US is waging an economic war on Iran and it has the will, the way and means to fabricate such allegations. We will only know for sure what happened when the real evidence has been investigated by the designated authorities..."
ICAO News Release: Official Notification Received From Iran on Flight #PS752 Accident
https://twitter.com/icao/status/1215342147353960453
"Consistent with the provisions contained in Annex 13 to the Chicago Convention (Aircraft Accident and Incident Investigation), ICAO has received official notification and a preliminary accident report from the Islamic Republic of Iran surrounding the loss of Ukraine international Airlines Flight PS-752 near Tehran. ICAO continues to call for diminished speculation on the possible causes of the accident until the investigation is permitted to be concluded and its official results are confirmed."
As far as the Iranian community is concerned the crash is creating trauma as well by dividing it.
This is a fairly small and close community that engages regularly on social, cultural and language issues. My experience with this community (I know many) is that most seem to be political but not to share this openly becuase they do not want divisions in the community.
Some in this community are people studying here or here becuase of personal reasons. These people I have found to be skeptical and very critical about the government but not completely hostile particularly out of understandable pride in their country if not agreement with the government. Interestly I am in contact often with people coming from Iran and they hold anti-governemnt opinions when they get here - even some who appear to be close to or working for the government. I have never met soemone who is actually pro-government. I think they may be rare. This group was furious about the assasination of the General and the government did have initial support from many of them. After the stampede and air crash (a flight that many have taken in the past) this support seems to be gone among any I have heard from directly or indirectly.
Others are more critical and angry of the government and here becuase they got away. They are hoping for a change in government but are not happy about attacks on Iran that harm Iranians. Many I know are in this group: highly anti-government but not happy about the sanctions, not happy about a lack of dipplomatic relations with Canada, not happy about Trump's recklessness that could cause war. They do not trust the Iranian government - most use terms like murders and corrupt in almost every sentence describing the government. However, they still also hate Trump and fear war.
Still others are extremely hostile to the government flying flags of the Shah. Some of these people are pro Trump becuase they think his pressure is good towards regime change. some are even okay with war if it ends the regime.
Lastly, there are ethnic divisons and each have their own thoughts. The divison is primearily between Persian Iranians and Kurds who have a different take, political agenda, identity and grievances. the full continuum of loyalty between one to Kurds and one that is national to Iran exists.
Of course there is a continuum and people I know who do not neatly fall into one of these but between them. I wanted to give an idea though of the context that this community is reacting in.
Normally they simply avoid these differences socially and tolerate each other. They all share a fierce pride in being Iranian, a desire to be in contact, and love of the language and culture (and food -- if you have not had Persian food you should fix that).
Now these divisions are being opened. We saw a shoving match in Toronto last week over the assasination of the General where some were claiming him to be a great man and others a child killer. (The children who died due to his actions were Syrian and Iraqi and there are large communities from those countries here as well - I expected some of those are represented.)
They are opened again over the response to the crash: how much Trudeau should condemn Iran is not a point of agreement with some demanding a very strong response against the Iranian government.
Apart from the sudden and horrible loss of these lives affecting the entire community, you have divisons that will likely bring more pain for a long time.
This is a significant pain and tragedy on top of the crash that is made worse by the overwhelming belief now that the plane was shot down as they have all seen the videos, verified, of the missiles hitting the plane.
I do not yet know how they will feel about a Ukraine-Canada agreement and all that could mean regarding investigation and interpretation especially given my own concerns about Ukraine responsibility.
It would make as much sense to have vigils for refugees which is none. Mainstream news just repeats whatever people are saying. It doesn't make it true.
Update on the Ukrainian Plane Incident Near Tehran
"Reuters asks: 'Who ya gonna believe - me or your lying eyes?' Consider the above when you read reports in which anonymous officials allege that Iran shot down the Ukrainian flight PS752 over Tehran. That may have happened. But that is only one possible explanation for the accident. The crash may have been caused by technical or other issues. Rumors and assertion from anonymous officials are not evidence Neither are videos of unknown provenance. The US is waging an economic war on Iran and it has the will, the way and means to fabricate such allegations. We will only know for sure what happened when the real evidence has been investigated by the designated authorities..."
The problem with such stories is that they disregard the fact that the people most concerned -- the families -- seem to have concluded that the evidence they have seen: videos, analysis, pictures, reports that the plane was shot down are true. Who are you going to believe and trust: Iranian Canadians who lost loved ones who have reports from Iran and are reading everything they can in Farsi and English or the whatever of Alabama? Or perhaps the Iranian government from which they can count the lies of the week like people do here the lies of the week from Trump.
Yes, Iranians will also remind you of how many of their compatriots were murdered in the last three months by the regime.
When it comes to competence of the government they can give you a string of stories about this regime that do not start with the mismangement of the floods or end with the mismanagement of the funeral route and stampede.
As for arguments about accuracy of the weapons fire onto US bases - this is not as clear as people here pretend. These are very large bases and they were warned through Iraq in advance. It is no surprise that nobody was hurt. Also no surprise that the Iranian government is still pretending that 80 Americans were killed something that is substantiated by nothing and disputed by Iraqis, Canadians, Germans, Danes, British and Americans. this many deaths would be impossible to cover up. Also how could the Iranians know such a thing within minutes of the attack as they did?
The only debate I hear among Iranian Canadians is whether it was an accident or a purposeful murder as a distraction.
It would make as much sense to have vigils for refugees which is none. Mainstream news just repeats whatever people are saying. It doesn't make it true.
Can you explain? I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
US, Canada Blame Plane Crash on Iran as Causes Remain Unclear
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/01/10/ukia-j10.html
"With the investigation into the causes for the crash having barely begun, on Thursday, US officials rushed to blame Iran for the downing of the plane. However, the real causes of the crash remain entirely unclear, and there are no grounds to trust the 'suspicions' of Donald Trump or the 'high level of confidence' of the CIA or MI5, all of whom are notorious for systematically lying to the public for the purposes of war propaganda and manufacturing of pretexts for aggression..."
What a tragic event. The news coverage has been emotionally devastating given how many of the people on board who perished lived in our communites.
As for what happened, I think that we are still in the speculation phase as is usual for almost ALL air craft disasters. But I do wonder, (a) why would flights take off if there was missile action going on, and (b) why did the air pilot try to turn around the plane?
Those are just some of the many questions which the investigative process is supposed to answer. However, given the outrageous fiasco of a stitch-up that occurred with the investigation into the downing of Flight MH17, and noticing this article's revelation that some of the same compromised Ukrainian investigators will also be involved with the UI752 matter makes me fear that similar hijinks may be planned.
As well as the political dimension, there is the whole question of financial costs and liabilities also. Boeing has a vested interest, especially with its recent record of covering up technical deficiencies in its aircraft, as does USA and Ukraine in fingering Iran, since if it is found to indeed be a technical deficiency then Boeing and Ukraine may be liable for huge settlements when the ICAO hands down its decision and the lawyers rush for the courts seeking damages. Framing Iran as the culprit may be a critical goal for these interests by hook and by crook. Note the recent revelations of the OPCW cooking the books to implicate Syria for supposed chemical weapon incidents for which Syria was bombed but later were established never to have happened. I will be watching this closely.
What a tragic event. The news coverage has been emotionally devastating given how many of the people on board who perished lived in our communites.
As for what happened, I think that we are still in the speculation phase as is usual for almost ALL air craft disasters. But I do wonder, (a) why would flights take off if there was missile action going on, and (b) why did the air pilot try to turn around the plane?
A lot of infomration and evidence is out there. The Iranian community and most in the world are convinced. It runs against some here to want to accept it.
Meanwhile, I was just told reformist media in Iran is now reporting that Rouhani wanted to accept responsibility for the accidental downing of the airplane but military and IRG stopped him. He may be president but he does not call the shots as people who follow Iran politics know. Interesting that they could even publish this in light of the sensitivity of the military decision. clearly some power struggle over this within the two factions of the government (the elected President and the Supreme leader/Revolutionary Guard. This is not unusual. Many are saying that the upcoming elections in Iran will result in a hardline President replacing the relatively reformist one they have. The reason is that many Iranians are apparently considering boycotting the election.
It seems the plane turned toward the mountains. There are only two possibilities: 1) it was out of control or 2) the pilots knew they were crashing and turned away from the city. There is no path turning right out of the airport as there is not enough room to turn around so there is no point in that turn if you think you can survive.
I have focussed most of my own questions on why this plane took off. Before dawn is the most dangerous. As well there was a delay of an hour which could indicate there was a debate about leaving. I think now that it is fairly clear what happened, the reason for this delay and what the conversations were between the pilot, the airport and the airline is a critical question. I think with Canada having to side with Ukraine just to get to the table, there is no chance of Canada getting this information.
This is unfortunate as the responsibility seems to rest with:
1) the US for the original attack
2) the decisions that allowed the plane to fly
3) whatever caused the missile battery to fire at the plane (it could have been automatic or it could have been manual says a Canadian general)
I think the retaliation Iran carried out was a foregone unavoidable reaction and defences with risk over the capital a result of that. Therefore I believe the first critical responsibility lies with Trump's action and the second with that plane flying at the worst possible time when it may have been much safer only an hour later. The first we know about but the second is a mystery we may never get.
Those are just some of the many questions which the investigative process is supposed to answer. However, given the outrageous fiasco of a stitch-up that occurred with the investigation into the downing of Flight MH17, and noticing this article's revelation that some of the same compromised Ukrainian investigators will also be involved with the UI752 matter makes me fear that similar hijinks may be planned. As well as the political dimension, there is the whole question of financial costs and liabilities also. Boeing has a vested interest, especially with its recent record of covering up technical deficiencies in its aircraft, as does USA and Ukraine in fingering Iran, since if it is found to indeed be a technical deficiency then they will be liable for huge settlements when the ICAO hands down its decision and the lawyers rush for the courts seeking damages. Framing Iran as the culprit may be a critical goal for these interests by hook and by crook. Note the recent revelations of the OPCW cooking the books to implicate Syria for supposed chemical weapon incidents for which Syria was framed and bombed but later were established never to have happened.
Your argument has been passed by due to a tremendous amount of evidence and suspicious behaviour of the Iranian crash field management. There are few people really wondering seriously what brought the plane down at this time.
The questions are centred on a lot of whys and responsibilities. The alternative theories about how this plane came down given the volume of evidence already out there amount to truly outlandish conspiracy theories that the Iranian community is not participating in.
There are multiple countries claiming evidence of the signatures of the missiles, many photographs and videos from many different sources.
there will always be people seeking the most unicorn like explanations but there is very little room left.
Breaking news: Iranian military has now admitted this as a mistake -- the army.
They say they were claiming that the plane turned close to a guard base so its position looked like it was attacking and then a human mistake.
More explanation is expected to come.
there is no point in further conspiracy theories here about the way the plane came down.
I think this is a good idea for the Iranians to settle this - hopefully it will allow the conversation to turn to the things we did not know -- Why the hell the plane took off.
This just came out moments ago and no doubt will be translated shortly into English by international media.
Like most people following the story, I am in awe that the Iranians were able to make 22 precision missile strikes on US AFB's in Iraq. I sincerely hope they have demonstrated a sufficient deterrent capability to bring some peace to the area for a while. Then I am expected to believe a Canadian General's assessment that their systems fail so often they might have accidentally shot down a civilian airliner over the capital. If this was a trailer for a movie I would laugh at how ludicrous the premise was.
How laughable is "the premise" now?
CNN is now reporting that Iran is finally admitting that they shot down the plane.
https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/us-iran-news-intl-01-10-2020/index.html
The people who need to be vilified are whom ever shot it out of the sky.
It looks like the Iranian government shot it out of the sky.
Did Trump tweet that to you?
No. The media is reporting that Iran likely shot down the plane.
https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/iran-plane-crash-investigation/index.html
CNN is no more credible a source than a Trump tweet.
Looks like CNN was more credible than the government of Iran, Donald Trump, and the many "media sources" provided on this thread that tried to deflect responsibility of the downing of the plane on to other entities like US/NATO, Israel, and Canada.
The people who need to be vilified are whom ever shot it out of the sky. Given our past history of war crimes and total disregard for civilian deaths I suspect it is most likely a US/NATO or Israeli strike. I hope no Canadian forces are implicated in the downing of a civilian plane.
Do you still think "the people who need to be vilified are whom ever shot it out of the sky?"
A Sad Day.
https://twitter.com/JZarif/status/1215847283381755914
"A sad day. Preliminary conclusion of internal investigation by Armed Forces: Human error at time of crisis caused by US adventurism led to disaster. Our profound regrets, apologies and condolences to our people, to the families of all victims, and to other affected nations."
- Javad Zarif, FM of Iran -
General Staff of Iran Armed Forces Releases Statement on Ukrainian Plane Crash
https://en.irna.ir/news/83628876/General-Staff-at-Iran-Armed-Forces-rele...
Tehran, Jan 11, IRNA - "The General Staff of the Iranian Armed Forces offered explanations for the crash of the Ukrainian aircraft which happened near Tehran on Wednesday...The General Staff of the Iranian Armed Forces hereby extends its condolences to the bereaved families of the victims of the incident as well as those foreign nationals aboard the flight. It also offers its apology for the human error which caused the crash...."
PS Toronto No War on Iran rally canceled and rescheduled for January 25
Iran's Rouhani Vows to 'Identify & Prosecute' All Responsible For 'Disastrous Mistake' that Led to Ukrainian Jet Downing
"Investigations continue to identify and prosecute this great tragedy and unforgivable mistake.' In the aftermath of the incident, Rouhani arranged for 'compensation' payments to the victims' families and ordered reforms of the country's air defense system..."
It certainly is tragic, and I'm glad Iran admitted the error, but I still can't believe a commercial airliner decided, and was permitted, to take off on an evening where an outbreak of war was a strong possibility. The Ukrainian airline company should expect a massive lawsuit,
'I wish I was dead and such an incident had never happened. We in IRGC accept all the responsibility...' IRGC Aerospace Commander Amir-Ali Hayizadeh.
"It is welcome that the Iranian forces came clean about the incident. That is not a given in such cases After the USS Vincennes in 1988 had shot down Iran Air Flight 655 and killed 290 people, including many children, the US government denied any culpability. George W Bush, the vice-president of the US at the time commented: 'I will never apologize for the United States - I don't care what the facts are...I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy.' Despite its 'error' the crew was given medals and the Captain was even awarded a Legion of Merit 'for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as a commanding officer.'
The death of the people on flight PS752 is the tragic outcome of unreasonable US aggression..."
MoA: Iranian Armed Forces Say They Inadvertently Shot Down the Ukrainian Plane
'I wish I was dead and such an incident had never happened. We in IRGC accept all the responsibility...' IRGC Aerospace Commander Amir-Ali Hayizadeh.
"It is welcome that the Iranian forces came clean about the incident. That is not a given in such cases After the USS Vincennes in 1988 had shot down Iran Air Flight 655 and killed 290 people, including many children, the US government denied any culpability. George W Bush, the vice-president of the US at the time commented: 'I will never apologize for the United States - I don't care what the facts are...I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy.' Despite its 'error' the crew was given medals and the Captain was even awarded a Legion of Merit 'for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as a commanding officer.'
The death of the people on flight PS752 is the tragic outcome of unreasonable US aggression..."
MoA: Iranian Armed Forces Say They Inadvertently Shot Down the Ukrainian Plane
Also the U.S. eventually sent $131.8 million to Iran in 1996.
It certainly is tragic, and I'm glad Iran admitted the error, but I still can't believe a commercial airliner decided, and was permitted, to take off on an evening where an outbreak of war was a strong possibility. The Ukrainian airline company should expect a massive lawsuit,
We can see that there more to this story now that the Iranian government is accepting that it did this and blaming the US for the underlying cause. This is becuase of what we do not see.
If the take off time had the Ukrainians as the only responsible ones then Iran would raise this issue. The airport was open and it seems a number of domestic flights were going ahead. This also explains why the people boarded the airplane without fear. None of the comments on the Iranian group mentionned fear for their safety.
Another airline flying above the doomed flight saw the attack and reported seeing it. We have not heard who they were. Given the emptying of airspace by international flights, this was probably an Iranian airliner. It is possible that Iranians know that if this plane had not been hit another could have been.
The fact the airport was not closed means that Iran has some explaining to do here. Was communications or incompetence a problem? Was the airport assured of the safety of flights by the IRG.
There is an hour long delay: we should have an explanation for that and if the airport pressured the Ukrainians to leave or what the conversation was. Again I would suggest that if the airport had pressured the Ukrainians to leave the Ukrainians would be talking about it. It seems that both the airline and the airport are responsible for the flight taking off or this would be a public story with the other complaining. Did they do this with assurances??? Was getting them the reason for the delay?
Many questions and no answers except what seems to me is clear: both sides must be responsible for both sides to be remarkably quiet about the departure which is an obvious question.
***************************************************
Please talk about this:
Another critical developing story here is that Ukraine is offering $8000 to every person on the flight. Let that soak in.
I am sure that this money will come with a requirement to agree not to sue Ukraine or the airline. If this comes before any public discussion (still not happening) about the departure then these families could sign away their right to sue the only entity that they could ever sue. You cannot sue Iran in Canada and you won't be able to sue the US either.
If anyone knows a good journalist who can address this story of the terms and risks of Iranian families signing any kind of document to get this tiny amount of money this story is urgent now.
****************************************
I am highlighting this post as I think someone here might be able to make a real difference.
Protests in Iran are mounting but I will take that to the main Iranian thread due to the implications -- here is a link to videos
Reports among Iranians is that a man whose wife and son were killed on the plane has committed suicide in Toronto. This is unconfirmed but the community is speaking about it.
It certainly is tragic, and I'm glad Iran admitted the error, but I still can't believe a commercial airliner decided, and was permitted, to take off on an evening where an outbreak of war was a strong possibility. The Ukrainian airline company should expect a massive lawsuit,
I think Iran should expect a massive lawsuit from the Ukrainian airline for shooting down their plane. The Ukrainian airline was following Iranian law.
Trudeau in his comments today said the US action was part of what caused the crash. This may not go as far as what some might like to hear but this part of his comments was picked up in international news and highlighted, for example, on Al Jazeera. It was important to see Trudeau not attempt to blunt or excuse the American responsibility here. I think he actually went as far as he could without damaging Canada given that we are dealing with a serious problem with the US relationship.
I am often very critical about Trudeau but I think he handled the question very well and I was worried that he would bend to pressure of our relationship with the US to say the US action was not related. Since this is a thread about Trudeau in a place that rightly calls him out often -- I think his response and his comments have generally been very good and better than I expected.
I suspect his meetings with Iranian Canadian families have helped him find a way to express their views. Trudeau's words are very much representative of what the Iranian community wanted to see.
I think it is reasonable for us to at least notice this given the title of the thread.
"It is welcome that the Iranian forces came clean about the incident..."
Iran came clean only after their coverup was uncovered.
It certainly is tragic, and I'm glad Iran admitted the error, but I still can't believe a commercial airliner decided, and was permitted, to take off on an evening where an outbreak of war was a strong possibility. The Ukrainian airline company should expect a massive lawsuit,
I think Iran should expect a massive lawsuit from the Ukrainian airline for shooting down their plane. The Ukrainian airline was following Iranian law.
I think the difference is that the Ukrainian government has nothing but an empty bag to sue. What Iranian government assets exist in Ukraine that they could touch?
Going after certain assets of Iran is controversial among the Iranian expat community by the way and they speak about it often. Going after the regime's business assets is difficult becuase theya re much more shadowy. Going after assets like embassy properties is an issue becuase these are long term assets of the Iranian people. Expat Iranians wish that these not be touched so that theya re there when a new government can be produced from Iran. They object to wealthy countries taking these assets that really belong to the people and not a current regime. They want Iran to be able to deal with other countries and not start from scratch after a future change.
When it comes to ukraine, the company and airline do business in Canada. Theya re offereing a pittance. The airline has assets here that belong to that business and not a diplomatic property.
Ukraine has not been forthcoming any more than Iran about the circumstances of the take-off. Both look extremely guilty to me.
I want us to know what if any assurances of safety were asked for and received by the pilot, airline, airport and passengers. I want us to know what was the reaosn for the delay and why they did not wait for daylight at least.
"It is welcome that the Iranian forces came clean about the incident..."
Iran came clean only after their coverup was uncovered.
Indeed but saying this is good diplomacy in the hope of encouraging more. Trudeau also acknolwedged that the question of inent was one we needed to ehar more about. Iranians I know have been demanding that he say that becuase they have reason not to trust the government -- a building full of people was destroyed and later people in the government admitted to doing it as a diversion when the coverup was uncovered. (I do not have details but multiple people have told me this story -- including a couple who were much more open to positions of the government.)
This is the problem with covering up one thing -- you will be suspect in more.
Was the Ukrainian airline the only airline taking off planes from the Iranian airport? Should all the airlines using the Iranian airport that day share blame? I don't think so. I think all the airlines there were following Iranian law.
Was the Ukrainian airline the only airline taking off planes from the Iranian airport? Should all the airlines using the Iranian airport that day share blame? I don't think so. I think all the airlines there were following Iranian law.
We only know of domestic airlines and the Ukrainian airlines.
Yes any airline who took off at that time took an inexcusable risk given daylight was coming shortly. The fact they got away with it does not mean they do not share blame.
We do not know if the other airlines took off at that time.
It is possible that the IRG had better communicaitons with domestic airlines.
We do not know -- many questions.
Clearly the Ukrainian airline took off in danger and are responsible for that decision. that does not change if a couple other airlines made the same bad decision.
I think I read somewhere that this flight was one of about a dozen that took off that night. Apparently when you live in war zone you get dulled to the actual threats all those missile systems pose especially when you factor in human error.
It certainly is tragic, and I'm glad Iran admitted the error, but I still can't believe a commercial airliner decided, and was permitted, to take off on an evening where an outbreak of war was a strong possibility. The Ukrainian airline company should expect a massive lawsuit,
We can see that there more to this story now that the Iranian government is accepting that it did this and blaming the US for the underlying cause. This is becuase of what we do not see.
If the take off time had the Ukrainians as the only responsible ones then Iran would raise this issue. The airport was open and it seems a number of domestic flights were going ahead. This also explains why the people boarded the airplane without fear. None of the comments on the Iranian group mentionned fear for their safety.
Another airline flying above the doomed flight saw the attack and reported seeing it. We have not heard who they were. Given the emptying of airspace by international flights, this was probably an Iranian airliner. It is possible that Iranians know that if this plane had not been hit another could have been.
The fact the airport was not closed means that Iran has some explaining to do here. Was communications or incompetence a problem? Was the airport assured of the safety of flights by the IRG.
There is an hour long delay: we should have an explanation for that and if the airport pressured the Ukrainians to leave or what the conversation was. Again I would suggest that if the airport had pressured the Ukrainians to leave the Ukrainians would be talking about it. It seems that both the airline and the airport are responsible for the flight taking off or this would be a public story with the other complaining. Did they do this with assurances??? Was getting them the reason for the delay?
Many questions and no answers except what seems to me is clear: both sides must be responsible for both sides to be remarkably quiet about the departure which is an obvious question.
The airline should have postponed the flight 24 hours with what was going on. They always have the option.
"It is welcome that the Iranian forces came clean about the incident..."
Iran came clean only after their coverup was uncovered.
I’ll never apologize for the United States of America, ever; I don’t care what the facts are,” said Vice President George H. W. Bush after the US Navy shot down Iran Air Flight 655 in 1988, killing 290 innocent people, including 66 children.
I think I read somewhere that this flight was one of about a dozen that took off that night. Apparently when you live in war zone you get dulled to the actual threats all those missile systems pose especially when you factor in human error.
Night is pretty long. The danger part was just before dawn as media had been talking about all night.
Not sure who you mean by dulled -- the passengers? Airport? Airline? IRG? Those who were responsible for making sure the airline was safe or those trusting others to do this job?
"It is welcome that the Iranian forces came clean about the incident..."
Iran came clean only after their coverup was uncovered.
I’ll never apologize for the United States of America, ever; I don’t care what the facts are,” said Vice President George H. W. Bush after the US Navy shot down Iran Air Flight 655 in 1988, killing 290 innocent people, including 66 children.
How is this relevant? The comment was out of context to start with but the real question is are we playing the two wrongs make a right now?
It certainly is tragic, and I'm glad Iran admitted the error, but I still can't believe a commercial airliner decided, and was permitted, to take off on an evening where an outbreak of war was a strong possibility. The Ukrainian airline company should expect a massive lawsuit,
We can see that there more to this story now that the Iranian government is accepting that it did this and blaming the US for the underlying cause. This is becuase of what we do not see.
If the take off time had the Ukrainians as the only responsible ones then Iran would raise this issue. The airport was open and it seems a number of domestic flights were going ahead. This also explains why the people boarded the airplane without fear. None of the comments on the Iranian group mentionned fear for their safety.
Another airline flying above the doomed flight saw the attack and reported seeing it. We have not heard who they were. Given the emptying of airspace by international flights, this was probably an Iranian airliner. It is possible that Iranians know that if this plane had not been hit another could have been.
The fact the airport was not closed means that Iran has some explaining to do here. Was communications or incompetence a problem? Was the airport assured of the safety of flights by the IRG.
There is an hour long delay: we should have an explanation for that and if the airport pressured the Ukrainians to leave or what the conversation was. Again I would suggest that if the airport had pressured the Ukrainians to leave the Ukrainians would be talking about it. It seems that both the airline and the airport are responsible for the flight taking off or this would be a public story with the other complaining. Did they do this with assurances??? Was getting them the reason for the delay?
Many questions and no answers except what seems to me is clear: both sides must be responsible for both sides to be remarkably quiet about the departure which is an obvious question.
The airline should have postponed the flight 24 hours with what was going on. They always have the option.
The actually had a safer time just an hour later with daylight. The US does not conduct these operations then and the IRG would have relaxed.
Both the airport and the airline should ahve made this call but we have little to no discussion about the timing of departure something that is becoming suspect.
"It is welcome that the Iranian forces came clean about the incident..."
Iran came clean only after their coverup was uncovered.
I’ll never apologize for the United States of America, ever; I don’t care what the facts are,” said Vice President George H. W. Bush after the US Navy shot down Iran Air Flight 655 in 1988, killing 290 innocent people, including 66 children.
How is this relevant? The comment was out of context to start with but the real question is are we playing the two wrongs make a right now?
Iran apologized.
"It is welcome that the Iranian forces came clean about the incident..."
Iran came clean only after their coverup was uncovered.
I’ll never apologize for the United States of America, ever; I don’t care what the facts are,” said Vice President George H. W. Bush after the US Navy shot down Iran Air Flight 655 in 1988, killing 290 innocent people, including 66 children.
How is this relevant? The comment was out of context to start with but the real question is are we playing the two wrongs make a right now?
Iran apologized.
While the Ukrainian President and the Canadian PM went on TV the supreme leader sent a message that could have been written by anyone. He did not appear before anyone and speak about this. The Regime did this after until yesterday calling it all lies. They cut their losses because they were caught and admitted it.
They are yet to admit responsibility for the mistakes in the stampede or the thousands killed in November.
The US did release a statement of regret. Reagan was asked further if it meant an apology to Iran and he said yes btw.
If you want to take a notice of regret as an apology then you can take the word of the students who were colleages of the dead as an indication that they do not accept this lame ass apology that came after piles of evidence that made it more and more ridiculous by the hour to say anything different.
'It was clearly a war zone': Aviation experts question why Flight PS752 was cleared to fly
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ps752-flight-iran-missile-1.5422912
'It was clearly a war zone': Aviation experts question why Flight PS752 was cleared to fly
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ps752-flight-iran-missile-1.5422912
Yes -- particularly at that time. But there is the issue that the civilian authority of Iran assured the airport authority that it was safe and they in turn assured the airline. The passengers were not fearful.
I think I read somewhere that this flight was one of about a dozen that took off that night. Apparently when you live in war zone you get dulled to the actual threats all those missile systems pose especially when you factor in human error.
Not sure who you mean by dulled -- the passengers? Airport? Airline? IRG? Those who were responsible for making sure the airline was safe or those trusting others to do this job?
I guess my answer would be all of the above. I have never lived in a country that was under constant fear of being attacked by belligerent neighbours and their bully Uncle but I presume that live has to go.
I think I read somewhere that this flight was one of about a dozen that took off that night. Apparently when you live in war zone you get dulled to the actual threats all those missile systems pose especially when you factor in human error.
Not sure who you mean by dulled -- the passengers? Airport? Airline? IRG? Those who were responsible for making sure the airline was safe or those trusting others to do this job?
I guess my answer would be all of the above. I have never lived in a country that was under constant fear of being attacked by belligerent neighbours and their bully Uncle but I presume that live has to go.
Ok. Well -- you take precautions when it is especially dangerous. Same thing true about a place that gets tornadoes. Despite the fact that it happens many times a year, you still seek shelter. You are still considered an idiot if you go for a walk in the direction of one when you see one coming.
When it comes to violence when you, as a country, have just fired missiles at another country capable of retaliation (including your big uncle with the most weapons in the world), the next early morning when they are more likely to strike back and you raise your defense level you consider that this increased defence level is becuase of increased risk becuase why the hell else would you increase defence levels?
The fact is rational human beings do not average out risk but react appropriately to it. Just like you might be a little more careful driving on an icey road than when it is clear despite the fact that the road gets icey 50 times a year.
I mean maybe you are different but I react to threats but don't get a statistical average to work out how I will take precaution or decide that I have had so many threats this year that I won't bother.
I would never have gone to the airport that night myself so I do understand the idea that walking into a tornado is a bad idea.
I would never have gone to the airport that night myself so I do understand the idea that walking into a tornado is a bad idea.
I think if you were in a position of responsibility for others you would also have at least considered delaying the flight till light when the risk of attack and any response is reduced and getting information. We check the weather before we drive in winter. Surely, there, you would check to see if the evening is cloudy with a chance of deadly missiles... What could sway your decision would be the opinions of others that you thought you could trust. For this reason, I suspect there is a chain of conversations where assurance that should not have been given were.
There also may have been a breakdown in communications advising the front-line defenders of the what was happening at the airport. If you are defending the skies only a couple kms from an airport, someone at the airport should have been giving infomration about any takeoffs and arrivals in real time. The errors here were colossal.
I think that part of the problem for people here is the news is either silent about all Middle Eastern countries or very bad. We get the idea that every day is bad "over there" becuase we only hear something when it is bad. They are aware but not dulled. In fact they are probably sharpened by this awareness and the need to be vigilant.
The reality is that the night this plane was shot down was not normal - nowhere close. There certainly was good reason to be cautious and at level nobody would be desensitized to.
I raised the issue of the airline and pilot and also wondered about the passengers not being afraid. The passengers were coming to Canada and many were posting on the Telegram newcomers group (for those coming here - people post there and are social there before and after they come and these groups are the reason everybody knows everybody). - some were bored and frustrated by the delays but none spoke of concern that we were able to see.
The reason, it seems, is that they got assurances of safety. I am hearing reports that the airport was told and told the airline that it was safe. If this is the case it would explain why neither the Ukrainians who made a mistake taking off and the Iranians who made a mistake saying it was safe and keeping the airport open are without some blame. In the case of Ukraine, the airline may be legally liable as these assurances obviously should have been more suspect than they were.
Just so you know I am with a person watching this closely by posting and reading various shared content in Farsi, watching news in Farsi, and Farsi and reading the group posts. The Farsi news is on multiple channels including state media, and channels from outside supported by other countries. Some of these medias don't have a bad reputation although they are skeptical of the government. Generally, BBC Persian is more biased although not outright lying and still widely watched in and out of Iran. The people running it day to day are expat Iranians.
I would never have gone to the airport that night myself so I do understand the idea that walking into a tornado is a bad idea.
It sounds to me like you're blaming the victims.
