Iran 3

NDPP wrote:

Clearly the crash is worthy of its own thread which I have opened up for the purpose thanks.

I could not find it... where is it? Can you link?

Perhaps I am being premature here, but from my readings, especially under the surface, this day may in fact be historic, as I believe that Trump has surrendered given the higher technological capacity of Iran. There can be no doubt that USA/Israel do not have the capacity to defend themselves from the under the radar Iranian missile capacity, as this missile strike has demonstrated. Is this what it takes to guarantee justice? Higher teck capacity?

Whatever the lies of the US adminsitration and its MSM presstitutes, they will now quietly leave the mideast arena,.....

Although perhaps their response was not proportionate, and they in fact may have advised the US before the strike, thus avoiding casualties, the fact that they successfully wiped out so many buildings on the base without any missile defence, surely was a demonstration of their capacity. thankfully Trump was strong enough to see this and surrender, although of course under the canopy of lies....

I predict that this day will go down as historic waning of the US Empire! 

Interesting thread on parallels between Iran & Sikhi, and the implications especially in America for civilians. https://twitter.com/JungNihang/status/1214905795508350977|

Related:
https://twitter.com/JazzTheJourno/status/1214862122166956033
https://twitter.com/PunjabiVillans/status/1214891583197368321?s=20 
https://twitter.com/sarkaaridoc/status/1214916837785260032?s=20 

See where they're going with this? America is increasingly hated and losing in the Middle East, and it's costing them too much to try and keep their failing shit-show together. So now they plan to make their NATO vassal-states 'shoulder more of the burden' in their imperial project. Don't go along with it. Don't let the gangster governments pull it off. Don't let it happen...FUCK NO!....

There must be a red line for ´progressives´ in Canada! No one politically can be supported if they support Canada´s engagement with NATO in the Middle East!

No one vote for any candidate that supports such venture! 

The president was not asked about the failure of the most advanced US anti-missile systems to intercept the Iranian missiles at Ain Al-Asad. (The second US base targeted by Iran at Irbil in Kurdistan was evacuated some days earlier.)  This could be down to three alternative breakdowns: either the early warning systems did not detect the missiles’ launch from Iran; or the interceptors did not react when the missiles exploded inside the base; or both.

Clearly, in the five months since its missile/drone attack on Saudi oil facilities on Sept. 14, Iran has made further strides in developing the precision of its missiles, whereas the US early warning systems were not correspondingly upgraded.

Iran therefore brought off the first missile attack on US military targets since the Korean War.

The implications for America’s military deterrence are plain, but no less grave are the implications for Israel. The Iranian general stressed that the missile attack on American bases in neighboring Iraq was “only the start of a series of attacks that will take place across the entire region.”
Israel has no illusions about its standing with America on the front line against Iran. And if the US military is short of answers for defense against Iran’s ballistic missiles, Israel whose early warning and anti-missile systems are based on American models is in the same boat.
The Iranian strike on US bases in Iraq on Jan. 8 must serve as an immediate red alert for Israel on what to expect. Instead of telling the Israeli public fairy stories about their country’s non-involvement in the spiraling armed contest between the US and Iran, it would be better for the government to tell the people frankly that Israel is more exposed than ever to Iranian missile aggression.....from Debka

...as stated previous this is a game changer...despite all the bs

NDPP wrote:

US Should Have Warned Canada Of Plan To Kill Iranian General, Say Government Sources

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/iran-soleimani-trump-trudeau-iraq-1.542...

"Asked today by host Chris Hall of CBC Radio's The House whether Canada had received any advance notice of the plan to kill Soleimani, Foreign Affairs Minister Francois-Phillipe Champagne said he could not 'go into the specifics of operations or intelligence.*'

In the immediate aftermath of Soleimani's death, Canada recognized the significance of the Americans' action and security officials immediately began gathering information to brief Prime Minister Trudeau, the first source said. The PM was on vacation in Costa Rica at the time. The first source said officials at the highest levels of the Canadian government feared that the act of killing Soleimani threatened to trigger dire consequences in the region. That source stressed however that the event won't fundamentally change the Canada-US relationship. Canada remains fully committed to the principles of the NATO mission in Iraq and continues to share the overall security objectives of the US, the source said..."

* I'll take that as a yes.

I have not been that interested in the answer -- sorry to say -- becuase I see no evidence that Canada would have stood up firmly to it. I wish I could think differently and perhaps I am wrong. Canada is not now making a big point of this so why would they if they had been told?

My bigger question is why has Caanda not already advised the Iraqi government that it will comply with the request to leave and provided the outlines of a plan. There are bigger and better questions we need answered than whether we confidentially were told about something we would probably have done nothing about.

Sorry I think we are in general aggreement on most of this - I just do not think this issue is as important. Could be wrong.

NDPP wrote:

BREAKING: 'Human Error': Tehran Admits To Shooting Down Ukrainian Plane By Mistake

https://on.rt.com/a8tl

Obviously more to follow...

I posted this news in the other thread (News section) there I mentionned about it being in Farsi and then gave the link to CBC reporting.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/iran-jetliner-unintentionally-shot-down-1.5423608

Iranians need to depose this tyranny just as their ancestors have done through the ages. I remember the 1979 revolution very well. I traveled across Iran in 1972 and when I was in Tehran I got a guided tour of the city by a group of upper class young people. I was appalled when the Islamist's gained complete control over the reigns of government. I often wonder how many of the four or five young people I met survived the purges given only one was an Islamist while the others were communist and socialist in their world views. I hope their children and grand children are successful in getting a new constitution and new leadership.

Canadians need to tell our government to remove all of our military and naval personnel from the region and let's see if peace will break out.

It seems that Iraq and Iran and Syria would all be better off without US/NATO forces being anywhere in the region. Without our presence I don't think they would be warring nations and instead they could cooperate to eliminate the real terrorists.

the complete address by Abdul Mahdi has been made available, which now fills the gaps the West has allowed to support the limited narrative fed to congress......

“This is why I visited China and signed an important agreement with them to undertake the construction instead. Upon my return, Trump called me to ask me to reject this agreement. When I refused, he threatened to unleash huge demonstrations against me that would end my premiership.

Huge demonstrations against me duly materialized and Trump called again to threaten that if I did not comply with his demands, then he would have Marine snipers on tall buildings target protesters and security personnel alike in order to pressure me.

I refused again and handed in my resignation. To this day the Americans insist on us rescinding our deal with the Chinese.

After this, when our Minister of Defense publicly stated that a third party was targeting both protestors and security personnel alike (just as Trump had threatened, he would do), I received a new call from Trump threatening to kill both me and the Minister of Defense if we kept on talking about this “third party”.

I was supposed to meet him [Soleimani] later in the morning when he was killed. He came to deliver a message from Iran in response to the message we had delivered to the Iranians from the Saudis.....

...Is this what is now happening in Iran? If they can´t defeat by force of arms? Nor by sanctions?

There are many Iranian immigrants, students here in Canada. Perhaps the people posting on this site could take a break and spend a nanosecond with one of them to discuss the vomit being posted here in a thread about Iran. That would be great.

contrarianna wrote:

Quote:

It is critical that people here do not take a black and white interpretation of this. There is a tendency on this site to whitewash any who are against the US. 

The US is fucking shit when it comes to Iran but so is the Iranian government. There is no good side between those two.... 

A poor attempt at equivalence between the behaviour of Iran and the US.
Falsely conflating domestic and foreign behaviour is not a matter of "balance" when the topic is the current nation-to-nation conflict. 

[snip]

No, no, and no for all that followed.

I did nt conflate anything. I objected to the stream repetition of Iran state propaganda posted uncritically here. I objected to every comment being posted about the people being followed systematically with one diverted to a political agenda about the US. It is not all about us it is not all about the US. To say it is is the very imperialist message you pretend to be against.

And when you start to make connections you should not stop where it is convenient for your personal agenda. So long as we connect some things to the US as you see some doing here, you can connect the rest as the nature of this government is also in part a reaction. Why can we not discuss without holding back all the consequences including just how awful this government has become? Many aspects of the horrible regime in Iran are related to the pressure they are under but we can only talk about that pressure but not the result. The whole damn government can be said to be a result of the maintenance of the Shah's oppresion in the 1950s.

I disagree that this thread is for the exclusive purpose of discussing your and a few other people's limited agenda and interests. It is to discuss the country - see the title????. Your agenda can even be distracted by details like a bunch of young people getting killed in a plane or on a ground objecting to it  -- at least for a while.

It is disgusting to tell me that the fact that young people are getting killed while protesting other mostly young people getting killed is not relevant so we can discuss the grander issue of US imperialism because a bunch of safe Canaidans who think they mean well have soemthing else they want to discuss. You should be ashamed of that comment but I know many here are shameless.

I made no comparison. I called for allowing comments not to be instantly and purposefully covered with Iranian state propaganda. I have not made any link or connection between what the US did which I have clearly opposed and what the Iranian government is doing that is getting excused, whitewashed and having its point of veiw presented uncritically here. We have shitloads of critical analysis of what the Americans are doing, their responsibility and, becuase it is popular to question Ukraine, that too. But when it comes to questionning a government that is killing its own people many make excuses or refraim from any acknowledgment. This is disgusting and embarassing.

This place is supposed to be anti-oppression. I never read anywhere that is has to be exclusively anti-US oppression. In some cases it is appropriate to discuss more than the same ald argument that is in every thread. 

When you put up something negative about the US here you get a pile of people all hyped up on their correctness who rush to agree, mimic and repeat the comment no matter how old news it is. You put up something current where people are dying but not directly at the hands of the US you get some wierd conspiracy shit like the US, Israel, Canada or NATO did the deed or you get just crickets. There is a serious problem on this site in terms of a lack of balance. If we want to pretend that unlike the rest of the world we care about people and the other places and we respect them -- then show it not just in your opposition to the US but in what they are actually saying and experiencing.

You want to know why this place is dying? Becuase it is no better tha white imperialists to have a bunch of white boys comfortably in Canada having a circle jerk about how much better they are that the US telling people to STFU when they raise anything other than the circle jerk agenda. You know many here are not that dissimelar from the right wing extremists - just that they have a different uniform and flag to follow.

Are we digital footsoldiers in a war between various oppressive nations prefering the ones victimized by the Americans only or do we actually give a shit about the people we are talking about in our agendas?

I do not agree that the only pro people position we must take here is anti-American imperialism. Sometimes we can consider other issues in the world.

There are people we whine about supporting dying while shouting that the their enemy is "not the US it is their own government." Literally -- that is what the people shouting in the streets are saying -- university students angry that their government shot the plane out of the sky.

You don't think they know that the US was aggressive and part of the blame? I have spent a lot of time with Iranians who have been talking about this. Yes, they are furious that Trump did what he did.  But they are not the carboard people that you make them out to be. Everytime people in the world are upset at their current circumstances and plead for held from the US or say they have a worse government -- people here, safe in their armchairs, rush to slander them as dupes or agents of the US. Many people here seem incapable of seeing a more than two dimensional world. They claim all kinds of bullshit but will steamroll over the people's views who they pretend to be helping and only raise them up when they conform to the agenda some appropriately lefty Canadian thinks is urgent.

These students -- who are dying -- (no I am not willing to let you forget that) know their own government reaction will make life worse for them. To them it is more than the imperialism issue: it is life and death - war and peace which is something most of the armchair heroes here know nothing about. they do not feel the need to take sides in the propaganda garbage between their shitty government and the shitty government of the US.

There are other important issues for Iran. You believe in immigration don't you or is that just a slogan? Then admit that there are poeple in Canada who consider that Iran is worth more than another topic for you to spray out your well-worn opinion that nobody on this site disagrees with. There are Canadians who give a shit. They might want to have a place where we can discuss what is going on free from American imperialism but also free from political garbage that seeks to shut down anything but the opinions of some white guys safely in Canada wanting to prove his virtuous anti-Americanism.

The inability to allow for real criticism of the Iranian government here while at the same time still understand the issues of American imperialism without dominating every detail with one single issue is the result of intellectual cowardice.

Let me be blunt: Canada needs a place to discuss things in the context of anti imperialism, in the context of a left persepctive that does not make every conversation just be about American imperialism to the point where nothing else is allowed. When you do this, by saying that we have to debate everything with the same conclusion in every micro part of the conversation drives out all discussions other than your circle jerk (everyone agrees with you anyway despite the accusations of a lack of purity that rhyme with McCartheism). these discussions are driven back to the places dominated by the American perspective. You are killing the thing you pretend to defend.

More moderate left people who also hate American imperialism but want to discuss other issues relevant to people are abandonning this place and they are pretty much homeless on social media now. They can got and get attacked by the trolls on twitter but they cannot discuss anything but the one narrow conversation allowed here.

Fact is I have been raising the deaths but the only interest seems to be an insincere oh that is sad and back to what I want to say about the US. 

This place is suffering becuase it was meant to be a wide space for progressive people to discuss many things from a progressive point of view. It has been taken over by an extreme set of people trying to prove how great they are while driving out most other people who are also left. It is not that dissimilar than those on the right saying that Andrew Scheer was too far left for them and Bernier is the middle. This is the left version of that.

I actually care about what the Iranian community is going through. I actually care about the way Iran is suffering and not as some talking point to prove something else. Maybe some people here could do a better job of pretending that they care as much for those people as they do for their personal talking points about the evilness of Amerika.

Maybe they should turn off the black and white TV and get a colour one where there is more than just a battle between Evil America and glorious socialism going on in the world.