The British Labour right's campaign to purge all socialists with false accusations of "antisemitism"

nicky wrote:

Beyond any question too many of Corbyn's accolytes have indulged in anti-Semitism. 

Hopefully that will begin to chnage on April 4.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8138869/Jeremy-Corbyns-aides-face-axe-expected-new-leader-Keir-Starmers-purge-lunatic-Lefties.html

This is not an article about the leadership contest.  As I think you knew full well.

It's telling that your link is from the most right-wing paper in the UK, a paper that would never support Labour under any leader and vilified the party even under Blair.

It's also telling that that article contains nothing that justifies the assertion you posted it to justify.

And any decent person would have to concede that criticism of the Israeli government or even opposition to Zionism should not be called "antisemitism"; that the term should not be used to describe anything OTHER than expressions of bigotry towards Jews as people and towards religious and cultural Judaism.   

Israel is simply a country.

And even you would have to agree that it's fundamentally unjust to have an inquisition going about this issue in which the presumption of innocence does not exist and in which people are being punished simply for expressing the view that someone else is innocent of the charge.

In any case, antisemitism is the least prevalent form of bigotry in all the UK-and exists, where it does exist, almost entirely on the right and far right-interesting fact, the Tories have NOT adopted the IHRA "guidelines" and neither has the Brexit Party OR what remains of UKIP and the BNP; given that those are the places where AS is most likely to exist, shouldn't there be more pressure within THOSE parties on that issue than there is within Labour, a party in which AS barely exists, if it exists at all-given that all of that is the case that a so why is there an inquisition going on about it within Labour at all, and why ONLY within Labour?

It's not, for example, antisemitism in any sense at all to call Israel a "racist state", or at least a state in which bigotry is the organizing principle.  And the Nation-State Law can't be called anything other than racist.

Do you really want it to be impossible for any paid Labour members to express solidarity with the people of Palestine, nicky?  It's not as though any good would come to the party from that.

Nobody who would want that disagrees with the Tories on any major issues anyway.

Aristotleded24 wrote:

nicky wrote:

Aristotle, somehow I cant find you criticizing Ken about raising his lies denying. antiSemitism during a global pandemic.

You have been around this community long enough to know that anyone who is remotely publicly critical of the Israeli government will be smeared as an anti-Semite.

But onto the bigger point, do you really think anyone in Britain really cares about so-called anti-semitism or who did what in the Labour Party or to Jeremy Corbyn right now?

This is on top of the fact that you have treated anyone who disagrees with you about Corbyn as not someone who has a different opinion in good faith, but as an enemy or a liar. That's petty in the best of times, but especially now when many of us don't know what is going to happen tomorrow, next week, or even next month.

His response to everything we've ever discussed with him has been totally Stalinist-he has his "line" and refuses ever to deviate from it.  

And what I've actually said that yes, ACTUAL antisemitism-which is bigotry against people who are Jewish or attempts to suppress Judaism as religious or cultural expression-should be fought anywhere.  AS, as defined by that metric, is intolerable.  It is also barely-existent at all within Labour and almost entirely a right-wing phenomenon.

Criticism of the Israeli government is NEVER antisemitism, and opposition to Zionism is never antisemitism, because Israel is not synonymous with Jews and Judaism and neither is Zionism.  Israel is simply a country and Zionism is just another nationalist movement-and that country and that nationalist movement do next to nothing to fight antisemitism; indeed, that country's current leader clearly wants antisemitism to get worse, as is shown by his support of the antisemitic and all-but-fascist governments of Poland and Hungary.

nicky, would you agree that nobody should be accused of antisemitism for saying that Israel is a racist state?   And that nobody should be expelled from the party-the BoD pledges are about making THIS a thing-simply for defending another party member against charges of antisemitism or disputing the validity of the accusations?

Will you not agree, nicky, that we can't simply assume that everyone who is accused of AS within the Labour Party is actually guilty?

And will you agree that no greater good would come of making it impossible for Labour Party members to publicly express solidarity with the people of Palestine or denounce the Israeli government for the manifest injustices it inflicts on Palestinians?

nicky wrote:

I have been accused many times of being Pro -Isreali apartheid or Anti- Palestinian rights. I have held neither of those insideous positions. I defy anyone to find a single post from me that espouses them.

What I have criticised is the culture of anti-semitism in the Corbynite faction of the Labour party. This surfaces in the bullying and harassing tactics against Jewish members. They have been confronted with the grotesque slogan "For the many, not for the Jew."

It has forced a couple Jewish MPs from their seats and has driven many from the party who have largely now  rejoined in the hope of electing a responsible leader. This bullying has been engaged in by a relative few but largley ignored and sometimes condoned by the Corbynites who have frustrated sincere efforts to deal with it.

The evidence of this harassment  and condonation is overwheming to any objective observor.

The sorry response of many Corbynites both in the Labour Party and on Babble has been to deflect this criticism into allegations of support for Netanyahuh's policies when it has nothing to do with that.

 

No Corbyn SUPPORTER ever said "for the many, not the Jew".

That was a slogan made up by right wing anti-Corbyn people to falsely imply widespread antisemitism.

And in virtually every case, the people who are making these accusations-the vast majority of the false accusers are Gentiles, as you know, nicky-are doing it solely to silence criticism of the Israeli government.

Would you agree, nicky, that there was never any justification to include comments made about the Israeli government or comments in solidarity with Palestinians as "examples" of AS, since those comments are never grounded in bigotry against people who are Jewish?

What justification could you make for putting any comments about that dispute into the range of things described as AS?

nicky wrote:

I dont see the difference Lagatta when you say "I didn't say "you", or "Nicky"; I said "shills like Nicky". That is not a slur."

You are really saying that I espouse those views when I do not.

Your ready slurs against people you disagree with are really comparable to how Corbynism almost destroyed the Labour Party.

Let's hope it is able to turn its back decisively on this sorry chapter.

There was never any such thing as "Corbynism".  Nobody ever idolized Corbyn or worshipped him like some sort of bloody god or anything.  And since he's not going to be leader at the next election, there's no longer any reason to viciously attack the man.  It would be unconscionable to erase Corbyn's policies and to sharply to the right of those policies, since nobody wants Labour to be closer to the Tories on the issues.

None of the people who stood against him for the leadership had anything more to offer than he did.   They all would have lost just as badly in 2019-especially Starmer, who went allout Remain-a stance guaranteed to cause a wipeout in the Labour heartlands even greater than the wipeout caused by forcing Corbyn to accept a second referendum-Owen Smith would have done just as badly, Yvette Cooper would have done just as badly, Andy Burnham would have done just as badly, Liz Kendall-being essentially a Tory, since her policy proposals were to Blair's RIGHT-there is nothing to Blair's right other than simply endorsing the Tory manifesto-would have done worse.   There was no widespread public wish for Labour to stay with the bland centrist policies that had And this wasn't a leadership thread-it's a thread about saving innocent people from persecution.

All of us oppose antisemitism.   What decent people are saying, though, is that comments about the Israel/Palestine dispute should never be equated to antisemitism.  It's not antisemitic to say that Israel is a racist state-any state based on privileging any ethnicity is inherently racist and can never be otherwise.

Any proceedings about antisemitism should deal SOLELY with antisemitism, not criticism of Israel and not anti-Zionism, since that criticism and that opposition is never grounded in bigotry.

And come on, nicky, you'd have to agree that there's no valid reason to suspend or expel people simply for expressing the view that a person accused of antisemitism is innocent of the charge.  There's no good reason to remove the presumption of innocence from the proceedings.

A key point from the article and it's a point I've been trying to make with you but you have repeatedly refused to acknowledge:

There has been an influx of new members, many of whom are vocal critics of Israel and who believe the UK, along with the US, should be tougher towards Israel, especially regarding its policies towards the Palestinians and its building of settlements in the occupied territories.

The strength of the left's support for Palestinian statehood, which Jeremy Corbyn has championed for decades, contrasts with the more nuanced position taken by many of his predecessors.

As the balance of power within Labour changed after Mr Corbyn's appointment, attention quickly focused on what activists and elected representatives were saying - and had said in the past - on social media and elsewhere about Israel and Jewish people.

There were claims that anti-Semitic tropes were being widely propagated and a number of incidents attracted a great deal of attention.

There were "claims" that "antisemitic tropes" were being used.  Anybody can "claim" anything, and the term "antisemitic trope" is so fluid as to be utterly meaningless.

It was ridiculous, for example, to hound Corbyn over his reaction to a supposedly antisemitic mural-a mural in which most of those depicted were gentiles, and which was basically just a comment on the early 20th century robber barons, most of which were gentiles-when that mural no longer exists.  Corbyn didn't paint the mural-all he was guilty of was not saying EXACTLY the right things against it.

In some cases, it was called antisemitic when a Corbyn supporter simply stood to an anti-Corbyn MP who simply happened to be Jewish-are we going to say that it's antisemitic simply to disagree with a person who is Jewish about ANYTHING?  Does that mean it was antisemitic to protest what Henry Kissinger did to Cambodia and Chile?  

Luciana Berger made a big, tearful show of standing up in the house and complaining about antisemitic emails sent to her.  It's a horrible thing that such emails were sent to her-but the were sent to her before Corbyn became leader, and when the Metropolitan Police investigated, they determined that the emails were sent by far right types.  What, in any of that episode, was Corbyn responsible for AT ALL?

What horrible crime did Jenny Formby ever commit?   All she did was release a study which demonstrated that there is not a significant incidence of AS within the party.  That's simply what the objective data gathered in her study SHOWED, for god's sakes.

Why should Chris Williamson have been accused of AS, and hounded out of the party, simply for saying that Labour didn't have a significant AS problem?

All that Corbyn supporters were talking about was what Israel was doing to the Palestinians-they weren't attacking Jews as a group, or Judaism as a set of religious and cultural traditions.   

Nothing Corbyn advocated as leader would ever have been injurious to the world's Jewish communities-indeed, by his lifetime of activism, we can clearly call him the LEAST antisemitic and MOST antiracist party leader in UK history.

The fight against Corbyn was always about silencing solidarity with the people of Palestine within the Labour Party. 

If it hadn't been that, the supporters of the IHRA guidelines would have accepted Corbyn's original offer to accept all parts of the guidelines OTHER than those intended to restrict or silence critical comments about the Israeli government.  If the issue hadn't been about silencing opposition to Zionism and solidarity with Palestine, why was that offer not ENOUGH?  Why should criticism of Israel ever have been equated to antisemitism AT ALL?

Israel is simply a country-it is not synonymous with all that is Jewish on the entire planet.  And in North America and Europe, more and more people who are Jewish are distancing themselves from that state. 

Since solidarity with the Palestinians is not in any sense bigotry against Jews or Judaism, why should the guidelines or the BoD demands be used to restrict what people can say about the Israeli government at all?

Corbyn did all he could to fight antisemitism within the party, and while there was an increase in AS in the UK(though it was still far less prevalent than other forms of bigotry in that country)it was almost entirely an increase on the right-among Tory/Brexit Party/UKIP/BNP supporters.

Nothing in that article vindicates your position at all.

And nothing in it justifies the fact that there is currently a massive camapaign going on within the party to drive out anyone who isn't an unquestioning supporter of Netanyahu against the Palestinians, a campaign that has no reason to exist.

There at least needs to be due process in this.  There needs to be a presumption of innocence and a real right for the accused to know the evidence against them and be allowed to present a proper defence.  We can't just assume that everybody being accused is guilty of AS and should be driven out of the party right now.

Would you at least agree that the AS proceedings need to be made a bit less of a kangaroo court?  That is it possible for a person to be unjustly accused of AS?   That no one should be punished simply for saying that another person is innocent of AS?

nicky most likely wants it to go ahead, since all he cares about is ridding Labour of all socialists and leaving it with nothing but "modernizing social democrats"; i.e., Tories with trendier clothes.

If you don't equate criticism of Israel with antisemitism, why, then, do you not agree with me that neither the IHRA "guidelines" nor the BoD "pledges" should ever have made that equation?  Why have you never called on the IHRA and the BoD to remove that part of the language from their proposals?

There is also the fact that you act as if it simply goes without saying that people like Jenny Formby and Chris Williamson, neither of whom ever made an antisemitic comment in their life, are guilty of antisemitism.

And that you didn't join me in agreeing that local councillor from Hove did not deserve to be punished or even threatened with punishment for what she said?

And that Tony Greenstein-who has never been punished for anything OTHER than his views on the Israel/Palestine issue-and who is Jewish and therefore couldn't be an antisemite if he wanted-should never have been subject to disciplinary proceedings?

You have never denounced the equation of criticism of Israel with antisemitism in a single exchange.   That is my main disagreement with you on this point.

We are both in agreement that actual antisemitism should not be tolerated.

She is one of the people you have called to be forced out.  Other than the fact that she didn't buy into the AS smear, what actual grudge did you have with her.

And you may not have called for Williamson to be punished, but you never denounced the attacks on him or the idea that it is antisemitic simply to question whether Labour has a major incidence with that major form of bigotry.

The only reason the AS smear was made was that Corbyn was the first Labour leader to acknowledge that Palestinians have legitimate grievances against Israel.  That is pretty much all any of the people who are being attacked in the AS smear have ever really done.

There needs to be a clear and absolute dilineation between antisemitism-a bigotry all of us denounce-and what anybody says about the Israeli government or in support of Palestinians.  Agreed?  Antisemitism is bigotry or threats of violence against Jewish people and against Judaism as religion or culture.

People associated with Corbyn have not been involved with such bigotry, and have never sought to intimidate or harm people simply on the basis of those people being Jewish.  The fact that virtually none of the complaints filed on the issue turned out to be valid proved this.

Good on McDonnell.  There is no reason ever to conflate comments about the Israeli government with AS.  Israel is a country-it is not synonymous with Jews or with Judaism.

nicky wrote:

Good for Starmer!

What Long-Bailey reposted was simply a comment about Israeli military training policies-not about Jews or Judaism.  this is why Labour should not have been forced to adopt any of the IHRA "examples" pertaining to the Israeli government.   There should be no greater restrictions on comments about the Israeli government-which is, after all, simply a government-than about any other government of any other country.

The only reason this was even an issue is that the IDF denied this was part of their training practices.   

Why was it never enough for you that Labour fight ACTUAL antisemitism, nicky?  Why should criticism of the government and military of a country ever be equated with antisemitism?
 

Why link this comment to AS at all?  It was a comment about a military tactic, not religion, or ethnicity, or race or culture. 

Why link ANY comments about Israel to AS at all?

What is the point?

You have never answered that question.

Why EVER imply that Israel or the Israeli government are synonymous with Jews or Judaism?  
 

The words of Leon Rosselson, one of the greatest political songwriters the UK has ever produced, and a longtime member of the Hashomer Hatzair as a young man:

https://medium.com/@rosselson/beyond-a-joke-9296840293a2

And here's a song Leon wrote about his father and his own Jewish identity- a song Keir Starmer would probably expel him from the Labour party for writing if Leon was a member:  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEDe9JPvPBI