So, what possible reason could 82% of Trump voters and some Dems have to suspect reported results of the 2020 US elections? And others giving them credence for reasons known and unknown.
Uh . . . the president of the United States , the Republican Party and the right-wing media spouting lies perhaps?
The U.S. death toll from Covid-19 has surpassed 300,000, 18.6% of the global total. The U.S. is 4.25% of the global population; a catastrophic failure or leadership by a President who said, on Feb 26, “Within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero.”
https://twitter.com/AliVelshi/status/1338558937122156544?s=20
RE: Michael's comments on #1399 and on Republicans, Democrats and being antiwar -- I agree Trump's actions have not matched his 2016 campaign's words. Here is a libertarian perspective on Trump's failure to satisfy his antiwar base, and the brutality of his foreign policy. Note however the author argues, and I agree that there is a opportunity here for the antiwar movement. I would further argue, in reply to Michael's comments, that there is something unique in history about a Republican president contesting an election on (partially at least) an antiwar stance, and his success in doing so is worth considering, deeply.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/12/14/nothing-was-delivered-trumps-ant...
"The powers that be understand their wars are growing unpopular and have learned to accept that, going forward, the usual, overt John McCain/Hillary Clinton style, across the board jingoism may not win elections. Trump is part of a larger pattern. In the last several years, we have seen a stream of “anti-establishment,” so called “outsiders” who market themselves as “antiwar” by comparison with the former, but who have their own hawkish foreign policies: Steve Bannon, Bernie Sanders, and Tulsi Gabbard to name a few. Furthermore, Ilhan Omar opposed Trump’s talk of withdrawals from Syria, saying it would empower, among others, Russia. Astoundingly, she even put her signature on an AIPAC circulated, anti-Iran letter. The letter supported an extension of the now lifted, imperialist, UN arms embargo.
The silver lining here is that that Trump has cynically, and for his own nefarious reasons, convinced his base that they are “antiwar.” Thus, he has substantially enlarged the already sizeable ranks of many on the broad right who consider themselves “antiwar.” Perhaps this can be exploited by non-interventionists and the antiwar movement during the coming Biden years. His base may have been too reluctant to call out Trump’s hypocrisy and mass murder. However, they should have no qualms full throatily opposing Biden and his trigger-happy cabinet, insisting they listen up and do what we say."
I don't have any polling data on this, but it would surprise me if many of Trump's supporters had ending wars as one of their top 5 issues. I think it is something they were willing to accept because of their personal esteem for Trump. I would be delighted if the MAGA crowd began to attend or even organize anti-war rallies during the Biden administration, but I wouldn't bet a cent on it actually happening.
Michael - We probably won't see eye to eye on this, but that's cool. I appreciate our conversations here, including the disagreements. I think that you underestimate this aspect of Trump's popularity. Antiwar.com, the Pat Buchanon isolationist crowd, Ron Paul and the libertarian wing of the republican party were significant supporters of this aspect of Trump's candidacy in 2016 and throughout his term. I think it is obvious that Trump's tepid antiwar positions were a significant reason, maybe even the only reason that the establishment media and the intelligence community opposed him so fiercely. I believe a Donald Trump with the same personality and policy positions, minus the isolationist/anti-Nato rhetoric would have been rehabilitated in the MSM and made presidential.
It is not obvious to me at all that the Democratic party is more susceptible to being taken over by it's anti-war members than the Republican party is. It is not obvious to me that more democratic party voters are antiwar than republican voters.
https://news.yahoo.com/trumps-media-critics-praise-syria-strikes-1540257...
"I think Donald Trump became president of the United States last night," declared Fareed Zakaria on CNN
“We see these beautiful pictures at night from the decks of these two U.S. Navy vessels in the eastern Mediterranean,” said Williams Thursday night. “I am tempted to quote the great Leonard Cohen: ‘I am guided by the beauty of our weapons.’”
Yeah, I remember those quotes from the msm after Trump sent missiles at Syria. They are a terrible bunch, and you may be right that they would have let Trump off easier if he had been more warlike. However, I say again, he did not attempt to reduce the military budget, which would have been the action the deep state, if it is a thing, would have cared most about. Anyway, I hope I'm wrong in being pessimistic about any significant movement of anti-war right wingers.
The other big problem for me is that I agree with Nathan J. Robinson that right-wing populism is just fascism, and I have problems making alliances with fascists.
Biden wins electoral college vote.
Trump announces departure of AG Bill Barr from his administration. Deputy Rosen will become Acting US AG. Also:
WATCH: Senior White House adviser Stephen Miller on Fox & Friends, says 'an alternative' group of electors is also voting today: 'As we speak, an alternate slate of electors in the contested states is going to vote and we are going to send those results to Congress...
"The only date in the Constitution is January 20. So we have more than enough time to right the wrong of this fraudulent election result and certify Donald Trump as the winner of the election..."
As expected fascist Trump and his fascist cult of personality are not respecting Biden's electoral college win just like they have not respected the fact that Biden beat Trump by over 7 million votes. As expected fascist Trump and his fascist cult of personality are appointing fake alternate electors that will attempt to convince Congress to throw the election to Trump even though he has clearly lost the Electoral College and received fewer votes than Biden in the election. How many Republican members of Congress will go along with this pathetic attempt at a coup?
As expected fascist Trump and his fascist cult of personality are not respecting Biden's electoral college win just like they have not respected the fact that Biden beat Trump by over 7 million votes. As expected fascist Trump and his fascist cult of personality are appointing fake alternate electors that will attempt to convince Congress to throw the election to Trump even though he has clearly lost the Electoral College and received fewer votes than Biden in the election. How many Republican members of Congress will go along with this pathetic attempt at a coup?
Americans have called for regime change and a new constitution for many countries with a far less dysfunctional electoral system. Time for the RCAF to do a Tripoli on Washington to help the people overthrow the government. Maybe take Trump out to a desert and shot him like a dog while the Democrats scream like banshees.
Time for the RCAF to do a Tripoli on Washington to help the people overthrow the government. Maybe take Trump out to a desert and shot him like a dog while the Democrats scream like banshees.
Hopefully Trump doesn't read Babble or he might now want to start a preemptive nuclear attack on Canada. His cult of personality would back him up. Maybe even some people here on Babble.
Explainer: 'Dueling electors' pose risk of US vote deadlock
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-dueling-electors-explain...
"It is theoretically possible for the governor and legislature, each representing a different political party, to submit two different election results, leading to so-called 'dueling slates of electors'. Below are details of how that might play out..."
Explainer: 'Dueling electors' pose risk of US vote deadlock
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-dueling-electors-explain...
"It is theoretically possible for the governor and legislature, each representing a different political party, to submit two different election results, leading to so-called 'dueling slates of electors'. Below are details of how that might play out..."
Not a single state legislature has done that.
1 PM EST #STOPTHESTEAL Coalition leaders will hold a press conference with Trump Electors from Contested States to talk NEXT STEPS
https://twitter.com/status/1338849347216297985
Major press conference Dec 15th 1pm est live from Washington DC
1 PM EST #STOPTHESTEAL Coalition leaders will hold a press conference with Trump Electors from Contested States to talk NEXT STEPS
https://twitter.com/status/1338849347216297985
Major press conference Dec 15th 1pm est live from Washington DC
Charlie Pierce describes vividly just how serious these "Trump Electors" are. His lede:
Oh, the hilarity never stops. It seems that the dead-ender play to beat all plays on Monday was to meet early in the morning at some Waffle House or IHOP, declare yourself Official Trump Electors, finish your early-bird specials, and then hightail it over to the state capitol and have some well-dressed flunky demand entrance to present your "certificate of ascertainment," once he scrapes the maple syrup off the paperwork.
Explainer: 'Dueling electors' pose risk of US vote deadlock
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-dueling-electors-explain...
"It is theoretically possible for the governor and legislature, each representing a different political party, to submit two different election results, leading to so-called 'dueling slates of electors'. Below are details of how that might play out..."
Not a single state legislature has done that.
Yes, but Trumpers think that they can annoint themselves even though they lost the state.
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell officially acknowledges Joe Biden as president-elect
From the Senate floor in the US Capitol, McConnell said Tuesday that "as of this morning, our country officially has a president-elect and a vice president-elect."
A Republican state senator and candidate for governor in Virginia called for martial law in response to President-elect Joe Biden’s victory.
It sounds like the Republicans will follow the Democrates lead and Protest the legitimacy of the election for the full term.
I wonder if the Democrate supporters will see it for the BS their protests were....
Don't recall Democrats threatening martial law and calling for the appointment of a separate slate of electors in the states they lost. Or bringing lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit,
I think we can chill out about martial law now. Trump is going to start Trump TV, helping push Fox into mainstream respectability, and then hang around until 2024. He may not go quietly into the endless winter night, but he's going.
RE: faith in election results, this was posted earlier, but I think this section is relevant:
https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-youtube-ban-is-un-american-wrong
"Unrestrained speculation about the illegitimacy of the 2016 election had a major impact on the public. Surveys showed 50 percent of Clinton voters by December of 2016 believed the Russians actually hacked vote tallies in states, something no official agency ever alleged even at the peak of the Russiagate madness. Two years later, one in three Americans believed a foreign power would change vote tallies in the 2018 midterm elections.
These beliefs were turbo-charged by countless “reputable” news reports and statements by politicians that were either factually incorrect or misleading, from the notion that there was “more than circumstantial” evidence of collusion to false alarms about Russians hacking everything from Vermont’s energy grid to C-SPAN.
What makes the current situation particularly grotesque is that the DNI warning about this summer stated plainly that a major goal of foreign disruptors was to “undermine the public’s confidence in the Democratic process” by “calling into question the validity of the election results.”
Our own domestic intelligence agencies have been doing exactly that for years now. On nearly a daily basis in the leadup to this past Election Day, they were issuing warnings in the corporate press that you might have reason to mistrust the coming results:
Amazing how those stories vanished after Election Day! If you opened any of those pre-vote reports, you’d find law enforcement and intelligence officials warning that everything from state and local governments to “aviation networks” was under attack.
In fact, go back across the last four years and you’ll find a consistent feature of warnings about foreign or domestic “disinformation”: the stern scare quote from a bona fide All-Star ex-spook or State official, from Clint Watts to Victoria Nuland to Frank Figliuzzi to John Brennan to McMullan’s former boss and buddy, ex-CIA chief Michael Hayden. A great many of these figures are now paid contributors to major corporate news organizations.
What do we think the storylines would be right now if Trump had won? What would those aforementioned figures be saying on channels like MSNBC and CNN, about what would they be speculating? Does anyone for a moment imagine that YouTube, Twitter, or Facebook would block efforts from those people to raise doubts about that hypothetical election result?"
No one with any sense of objectivity believed the results were hacked. That was tinfoil hat stuff. The Russians hacked the DNC in an effort to defeat Clinton, but there was no evidence that they hacked the voting machines. The problem is that the tinfoil hatters are now a majority of the Republican Party.
1 PM EST #STOPTHESTEAL Coalition leaders will hold a press conference with Trump Electors from Contested States to talk NEXT STEPS
https://twitter.com/status/1338849347216297985
Major press conference Dec 15th 1pm est live from Washington DC
Don't drink Trump's Koop-aid! It's poison!!!
*2020 Election Investigative Documentary: Who's Stealing America? (and vid)
https://www.theepochtimes.com/2020-election-investigation-who-is-electio...
"The reality of the 2020 election will not only decide the future of the United States, but also determine the future of the world. Following election night, The Epoch Times' investigative team quickly went to work. In an attempt to uncover the issues behind the election, investigative reporter Joshua Philip traveled across the country to swing states to interview whistleblowers, big data experts and election experts. This is the first investigative documentary published on election integrity in the 2020 presidential election..."
*The xenophobic Epoch Times' virulent China hate so prominent in this documentary, was also openly displayed in Hong Kong along with Star Spangled Banner singing crowds and 'Make Hong Kong Great Again President Trump!' banners. No surprise to find these same allies and their rich and reactionary backers now deeply involved in the MAGA movement.
Cortes: The Future of America First in the Face of Electoral Larceny
https://thenationalpulse.com/commentary/cortes-the-future-of-america-fir...
"We deplorables will focus and fight, even with potential election setbacks including unfortunate dodges by courts and certifications of tainted votes by feckless state leaders in swing states. We must recognize the reality of what has transpired and then quickly ascertain the best affirmative path forward for the future of the America First movement. Whatever unfolds in the coming weeks, the first decision involves firmly rejecting defeatism. Yes, the 2020 process has been wholly corrupted. If Joe Biden is sworn in as president in 5 weeks, this electoral larceny emanates from two primary sources of distortion...
The ruling classes benefitted mightily from the pre-2016 constructs of globalism and cultural nihilism, and they will clearly not gracefully cede power. If the permanent political class succeeds in illegitimately installing Joe Biden as president, our side cannot submit to a pessimism that is unworthy of our great cause. Keep fighting. Even if our efforts cannot prevent a Biden inauguration at high noon on January 20th, our activity now sets the stage for the coming years of resurgence..."
"We have put together I think the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics." - Joe Biden -
'Fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy ride' - 'All About Eve' (1950)
How can people be saved from the autocratic fascist Trump cult?
How can the autocratic fascist Trump cult connect to reality!
North Carolina GOP lawmaker urges Trump to suspend civil liberties to keep power: ‘Invoke the Insurrection Act’
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/12/16/north-carolina-republican-trump-insurrection/
Majority Believe Media Buried Hunter Biden Story to Aid Dad's Campaign: Poll
https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1339236248494493699
"...A whopping 76 percent of those who have been 'very closely' following the news believe the media ignored the stories to help the president-elect, and 72 percent of that group also think the former vice president 'likely' knew about and profited from his son's dealings."
Now the Murdoch Post and Republican Rasmussen? ROTFL. Meanwhile,
https://twitter.com/MrFergTurduson/status/1339263518038781960?s=20
Forensic Auditors find Shocking 68% Error Rate in One Michagan County's Votes
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/dec/14/forensic-auditors-find-...
Antrim Michigan Forensics Report', dated Dec 13 found this: The Dominion Voting System in place in Antrim County, Michigan for the 2020 election recorded a 68% error rate. In fact the system was found to be 'intentionally and purposefully designed with inherent errors to create systemic fraud and influence election results..."
Statement from Senate President Fann as subpoenas issued to Maricopa County Board of Supervisors
https://www.azsenaterepublicans.com/post/statement-from-senate-president...
"Today, under my direction as Senate President, Judiciary Committee Chairman Eddie Farnsworth issued subpoenas to the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors. One subpoena calls for a scanned ballot audit, to collect an electronic ballot image cast for all mail-in ballots counted in the November 2020 general election in Maricopa County, Arizona. The second subpoena calls for a full forensic audit of ballot tabulation equipment and the election management system used in the 2020 general election..."
#stopthesteal - Do the Math
https://twitter.com/MarkFinchem/status/1339248281117806592
"The math may be a stretch for some, but just sit back and take in these facts; ask yourself is this even credible without manipulation?"
Rand Paul: The Fraud Happened, This Election in Many Ways Was Stolen (video)
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/rand-paul-fraud-happened-electi...
"The courts haven't decided the facts. They never looked at the facts. The fraud happened. The election in many ways was stolen and the only way it will be fixed in the future is by reinforcing the laws, Rand Paul said..."
Facts First: Trump's characterizations of the report are false and misleading. The report, which was released to the public Monday, claimed Antrim County, not the state's voting machines as a whole, had an error rate of approximately 68%. Both Trump and the report are unclear as to what this supposed error rate actually encompasses but Michigan officials and elections experts, including federal employees in the Trump administration, have found no evidence supporting the report's claims.
The author of the report has a history of spreading misinformation about the election in Michigan. In an affidavit for a separate court case, he mistook voting precincts in Minnesota for ones in Michigan and provided inaccurate totals of Michigan voter turnouts, which contributed to the false "more votes than people" theory of fraudpreviously touted by the President and his allies.
Rand Paul offered no factual support for his assertion. Which is not surprising since he's a tin foil hatter from way back. And outright lied.
In fact, numerous courts have rejected Trump and his allies’ claims on the merits, not just on procedural grounds as Paul asserted. Often, though, Trump’s own legal team claimed widespread fraud in press conferences only to inform judges that they weren’t making those claims in court, instead focusing on procedural fights.
In court Trump's lawyers admit they have no proof of fraud because if they lie in court they would face perjury charges but outside of court they claim there was fraud to inflame Trump's cult of personality. Lying to the public like this is a hallmark of people who support autocrats and fascists. We've reached the point where Trumps' cult of personality is beginning to resemble Hitler's cult of personality.
Not right wing sources below, but revealing of the bi-partisan consensus around war and empire in Washington. Trump's threat to veto, while spun as primarily concern for social media liability, clearly has a military element, [b]which is why the NDAA was adjusted to restrict congress or the president from withdrawing troups until the Pentagon provides an assessment of how this would affect US security. [/b]
This is horrifying, and it slipped mostly under the radar. The American military now has the right to veto withdrawing from wars. So much for civilian control of the military (a concept that's been waning worldwide, including here in Canada, where the armed forces got full autonomy when an active-duty lieutenant-colonel was given the role of defence minister). Good thing Biden's never met a war he didn't like, or else he'd be in some real trouble.
Escobar: When Deplorables Become Ungovernables
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/56047.htm
"Beyond the raucous altercation on whether the presidential election was fraudulent, these are the key factual points.
1. A series of rules in mostly swing states were changed, through courts, bypassing state legislatures, without transparence, before the election, paving the way to facilitate fraud schemes.
2. Biden was de facto coronated by AP, Google, and Twitter even before the final, official result and weeks before the electoral college vote this past Monday.
3. Every serious, professional audit to determine whether all received and tabulated votes were valid was de facto squashed.
In any Global South latitude where the empire did 'interfere' in local elections, color-revolution style, this set of facts would be regarded by scores of imperial officials, in a relentless propaganda blitz as evidence of a coup.
On the recent Supreme Court ruling, a deep state intel source told me, 'The Supreme Court did not like to see half the country rioting against them, and preferred the decision be made by each state in the House of Representatives. That is the only way to handle this without jeopardizing the union. Even prominent Democrats I know realize that the fix took place. The error was to steal too many votes. This grand theft indicts the whole system, that has always been corrupt.'
Dangers abound..."
Escobar: When Deplorables Become Ungovernables
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/56047.htm
"Beyond the raucous altercation on whether the presidential election was fraudulent, these are the key factual points.
1. A series of rules in mostly swing states were changed, through courts, bypassing state legislatures, without transparence, before the election, paving the way to facilitate fraud schemes.
2. Biden was de facto coronated by AP, Google, and Twitter even before the final, official result and weeks before the electoral college vote this past Monday.
3. Every serious, professional audit to determine whether all received and tabulated votes were valid was de facto squashed.
In any Global South latitude where the empire did 'interfere' in local elections, color-revolution style, this set of facts would be regarded by scores of imperial officials, in a relentless propaganda blitz as evidence of a coup.
On the recent Supreme Court ruling, a deep state intel source told me, 'The Supreme Court did not like to see half the country rioting against them, and preferred the decision be made by each state in the House of Representatives. That is the only way to handle this without jeopardizing the union. Even prominent Democrats I know realize that the fix took place. The error was to steal too many votes. This grand theft indicts the whole system, that has always been corrupt.'
Dangers abound..."
Do you believe this?
I believe that the US is a dysfunctional state and badly needs a new constitution. A constitutional congress would be a fascinating spectacle, in a country that can't even pass an Equal Rights Amendment.
A constitutional convention would require the Democrats and Republicans to compromise with each other in order to make changes to the US Constitution. Given their opposing viewpoints on issues, what could they agree to change? I can't think of anything they could compromise on. I think only a national calamity might create the atmosphere for change and even that would likely not be enough. I think states seceding is far more likely. I think states like California, New York, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Michigan, New Jersey, Virginia, Washington, Massachusetts, Arizona, Maryland, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Colorado, Oregon, Connecticut, Nevada, New Mexico, Hawaii, Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Delaware, Vermont, Washington DC, Costa Rica, might want to secede if Republicans keep destroying the US. Maybe these states could propose having a constitutional convention as the only way to avoid a mass secession? If the convention could not satisfy these states then they would secede from the union. In any event it makes no sense for states like California and New York to stay in the US if they are limited to just 2 senators per state.
Interesting duopoly flashback..
Mitch McConnell Received Donations from Voting Machine Lobbyists Before Blocking Election Security Bills
https://www.newsweek.com/mitch-mcconnell-robert-mueller-election-securit...
"Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell squashed two bills intended to ensure voting security on Thursday, just one day after former special counsel Robert Mueller warned that Russians were attempting to sabotage the 2020 presidential elections 'as we sit here.' McConnell said he wouldn't allow a vote on the bills because they were 'so partisan', but, as previously reported, earlier this year McConnell received a slew of donations from four of the top voting machine lobbyists in the country..."
Navarro Report: The Immaculate Deception - Six Key Dimensions of Election Irregularities
https://www.scribd.com/document/488495896/Navarro-Report#download
"This report assesses the fairness and integrity of the 2020 Presidential Election by examining six dimensions of alleged election irregularities across six key battleground states..."
"I’m very, very concerned that if you solicit votes from typically non-voters, that you will affect and change the outcome.”
Rand Paul
A not-so-looney-look at 2020 election results in battleground states
https://nypost.com/2020/12/16/not-so-looney-look-at-2020-election-result...
"Whether or not you think the skepticism of half the country is 'looney', only a bipartisan and transparent investigation of these allegations will allow the country to move on with some semblance of the 'unity' Biden claims to desire..."
A not-so-looney-look at 2020 election results in battleground states
https://nypost.com/2020/12/16/not-so-looney-look-at-2020-election-result...
"Whether or not you think the skepticism of half the country is 'looney', only a bipartisan and transparent investigation of these allegations will allow the country to move on with some semblance of the 'unity' Biden claims to desire..."
In my opinion, those who believe the election was stolen will not be convinced by a hundred "bipartisan and transparent investigations". Any money or effort spent on this would be as wasted as money spent to "prove" that the earth is actually round to flat-earthers. Plus, isn't there a little irony in the fact that rags like the NY Post have played a big part in convincing "half the country" that black is white, and now they use the success of their disinformation campaign as a reason for more "investigation". It's shit all the way down.
Navarro Report: The Immaculate Deception - Six Key Dimensions of Election Irregularities
https://www.scribd.com/document/488495896/Navarro-Report#download
"This report assesses the fairness and integrity of the 2020 Presidential Election by examining six dimensions of alleged election irregularities across six key battleground states..."
Is the Navarro Report connected to Trump advisor Peter Navarro?
Yes.
Big Tech stole 2020 election by weaponizing platforms
https://newsbusters.org/blogs/techwatch/corinne-weaver/2020/12/17/specia...
"If liberal Big Tech companies have so much power and influence to manipulate an election, can any election really be fair? That's the question that both political parties, Congress and the federal government must address. Before the next election."
I see the "The election was stolen because people were exposed to information I didn't want them to be" argument has come full circle from Hillary's emails to Trump. Now both Democrats and Republicans can agree the problem with democracy is people learning and believing the wrong things, and that there need to be "guardrails" and "gatekeepers" to funnel people into believing and voting appropriately. Biden's already bringing the country together.
It should take effort and studied information for people to vote—not just harvesting the votes of apathetic, low information voters, many of whom didn’t even know they were registered to vote. That’s who we want making decisions for us!?!?! Instead you “cancel” capable people.
https://twitter.com/raazwell/status/1339654785184784384?s=21
Former Republican Georgia state representative and wife of former congressman and Trump cabinet member Tom Price.
I don't have any polling data on this, but it would surprise me if many of Trump's supporters had ending wars as one of their top 5 issues. I think it is something they were willing to accept because of their personal esteem for Trump. I would be delighted if the MAGA crowd began to attend or even organize anti-war rallies during the Biden administration, but I wouldn't bet a cent on it actually happening.
Yeah that will be a test for sure. I think it makes some sense that Republican voters in the military would like to see some of the forever wars wind down.
I worry the left wouldn't be so anti-war if the Iraq War broke out today just because Putin opposed it.
