The demonization of China

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contrarianna

NDPP wrote:
....

The 'lab-leak' theory is not of equal value - promoting it furthers the China hawks

https://t.co/THyn1wAV8t

"It is a sad experience to see that several writers I like and often agree with are propping up a Russiagate-like conspiracy theory about the origins of the coronavirus..."

That Moon of Alabama article is clueless on several levels.

For me, the preponderance of evidence still leans toward a non-lab origin of the virus, though any definitive claim either way at this point is completely unfounded. There is always the possibility of lab leaks anywhere in the world.

Automatically calling scientists and journalists who lean toward--or merely leave open--the possibility of a lab origin as "conspiracy theorists" is unfounded political polemics, not science.

Many labs across the planet play god, and dice, with infectious diseases, sometimes just to study them, and sometimes as bioweapon development.

One well-known infectious disease god on playing with intensified viruses:

Fauci backed virus experiments ‘despite pandemic risk’
....
[Fauci:] “In an unlikely but conceivable turn of events, what if that scientist becomes infected with the virus, which leads to an outbreak and ultimately triggers a pandemic?” he wrote. “Many ask reasonable questions: given the possibility of such a scenario – however remote – should the initial experiments have been performed and/or published in the first place, and what were the processes involved in this decision?

“Scientists working in this field might say – as indeed I have said – that the benefits of such experiments and the resulting knowledge outweigh the risks.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/world/anthony-fauci-backed-virus-experi...

Did this virus come from a lab? Maybe not — but it exposes the threat of a biowarfare arms race
Dangerous pathogens are captured in the wild and made deadlier in government biowarfare labs. Did that happen here?

https://www.salon.com/2020/04/24/did-this-virus-come-from-a-lab-maybe-no...

The establishment media's flip flopping in its messaging on the origin of the virus is what the journalists attacked by the Moon of Alabama article are actually about. Central is the propaganda game, which continues the Trump/Pompeo monsterization of China for regime advantage.

The US empire's foreign policy goals and its propaganda changes little with successive governments, Republican or Democrat. Biden's calling for an investigation into the Wuhan lab is little more than a propaganda ploy a la Trump. One could never conceive of any US president ever calling for any investigation into  Israel's bioweapons program despite it being one of only countries on the planet not to sign the: Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production and Stockpiling of Bacteriological (Biological) and Toxin Weapons and on their Destruction.

What does change is the US is the establishment media's increasingly bizarre contortions which flip-flops on what is conspiracy theory versus legitimate reporting.

This is the real topic of those media critics that the Moon of Alabama article maligns as "conspiracy theorists". That writer's only mention of the authors'  central topic is  to dismiss it in scare quotes:

....Then, under a similar mantle of 'media critique', Matt Taibbi furthered the 'lab escape' theory

   " When the Wall Street Journal came out with a story that a previously undisclosed U.S. intelligence report detailed how three Wuhan researchers became sick enough to be hospitalized in November of 2019, the toothpaste was fully out of the tube: there was no longer any way to say the “lab origin” hypothesis was too silly to be reported upon.

    That’s not to say the “lab origin” theory is correct, at all. However, that’s irrelevant to issue at hand....""

Party alignment of the major media focuses on, distorts and fabricates, "news" in a predictable way. Carving out a profitable demographic was spearheded by Murdoch's Fox News three decades ago which decided to milk to the Republican mindset by feeding them whatever reinforced their approval and outrage. Balance be damned, it brought them back begging for more.

The Democrat aligned established media saw the effectiveness of that vile profit model and jumped into it with both feet with the advent of Trump.

The result is that when Biden basically continues the imperial messaging of Trump on the "Wuhan virus", which was once framed as indications of Trumps perfidy, the factional media contorts and stuffs down the memory hole its previous messaging.

NDPP

Good points.

NDPP

Eisenhower rejected military chiefs' demand for nuclear war on China

https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1399012093827895298

"Newly released classified account of '58 Taiwan Strait crisis shows the exiled Kuomintang plotting with US military leadership to drag the US into a potentially nuclear regime-change war against Communist China. Sounds eerily familiar today."

NDPP

Resource page on the Xinjiang-Uyghur propaganda scam

https://twitter.com/timand2037/status/1399548504817631235

"In recent years Washington has run a fake 'Uyghur Genocide' campaign, based on hopeless sources, to help demonise China. This is simply part of the 'US in decline' rivalry."

kropotkin1951

This article hits a lot of the right points for me.

Lenin wrote his treatise of imperialism at the height of the inter-imperialist WWI. The lesson for today was the treachery of the social-democratic parties at the time. In the run-up to the war, the Second International of Communist, Socialist and Social-Democratic parties suffered a devastating split. The Communists held the position that the nature of the up-coming war was one to divide up the world among imperialist powers of mainly European countries and that it is not in the interest of the working people in these countries to side with their ruling class to act as cannon fodder to wage the war. The social-democratic parties lined up one after another to side with the ruling class of their respective countries all in the interest of defense of the father/mother-land. 

Today, we are seeing similar lines of demarcation as the social-democratic parties like the NDP, Greens and in Quebec, Québec Solidaire, stand behind the Canadian/Quebec ruling class in the Cold War against China.  

The task of anti-imperialists living in the belly of the Empire is to oppose imperialism of their ruling class. Anti-imperialists cannot determine what will happen in China, Cuba or Vietnam, nor do they have the right. The people in these countries know what is best for themselves and they are determining that their governments are doing a good job. While the socialist countries are busy building socialism for the benefit of their people, they are constantly faced with imperialist aggression in the form of sanctions, military blockades, encirclement, psychological campaigns by western politicians and media to demonize their governments. Short of a hot war, this is today’s focus of imperialist aggression on China. The pack of liberal leftists eagerly follow to show off their more left than thou attitude and to cover their little knowledge of Marxism by criticizing tried and true revolutionaries with over 100 years of experience in socialist and national liberation struggles. 

https://www.thecanadafiles.com/articles/canadian-social-democrats-deny-h...

 

NDPP

Pepe Escobar: G7 - Desperately Seeking Relevancy

https://thesaker.is/g7-desperately-seeking-relevancy/

"...China, the rising economic superpower hails from the Global South and is a leader in the G20. For all their internal troubles, EU players in the G7 - Germany, France, and Italy - cannot afford to antagonize Beijing in economic, trade and investment terms. A G-7 rebooted as a Sinophobic crusade will have no takers..."

Except for that stupidest of vassals and US shoe-shine boys, Canada.

NDPP

Eric Li: US borrows from China to buy Chinese goods (and vid)

https://www.rt.com/shows/going-underground/526390-eric-li-us-china-goods/

"On this episode of Going Underground, we speak to Chinese venture capitalist and political scientist, Eric Li. 'I'm a capitalist but I have no political power...'

NDPP

China is not a threat!

https://twitter.com/Fio_edwards/status/1404449716365107201

"400 US military bases surround China. 130,000 US troops are stationed in the Indo-Pacific. US warships regularly enter the South China Sea. China has no corresponding chain of military bases and does not send warships to roam around California's coast. China is not a threat."

Pondering

Today, we are seeing similar lines of demarcation as the social-democratic parties like the NDP, Greens and in Quebec, Québec Solidaire, stand behind the Canadian/Quebec ruling class in the Cold War against China.  

It is a complete waste of time to object without power.  China is a massive economic threat to US and Western world domination. 

As a Canadian, I have but one very long shot of having any impact at all. Lascaris is the only Canadian politician I know of who is anti-imperialist. He is very unlikely to become leader of the Greens and even less likely to become PM of Canada. 

Being informed seems pointless. 

NDPP

China and the New Cold War with Danny Haiphong (and vid)

https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/1405698701381750787

"I speak with Danny Haiphong about the new cold war on China and how the US/NATO is trying to carve up the country on ethno-sectarian lines. We dispelled common media myths includin Hong Kong, Xenjiang and the Uighurs, Adrian Zenz, 'debt-trap' diplomacy, etc."

NDPP

Canadian government promotes Wuhan lab conspiracy theory as anti-China campaign gathers pace

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/06/22/cawu-j22.html

"The Canadian government, political establishment and corporate media have rapidly fallen into line behind the United States and its other imperialist allies in taking up the scientifically discredited conspiracy theory that contends the COVID-19 virus originated not in nature, but rather in a lab at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

Despite the manifest lack of evidence for these claims, the Canadian government has embraced them as they buttress its turn towards military aggression against China..."

JKR

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Canada heads a group of countries investigating China's human rights abuses against the indigenous Uiygar people and China comes back with a pot calling the kettle black argument. Trudeau responds that our abuse is clearly in the past and that reparations are well under way. Someone in the Liberal caucus and staff should check with Cindy Blackstock and Pam Palmeter among others before agrandizing our accomplishments in reparations for past sins.

kropotkin1951

Part of the mistreatment of Uyghur people was providing their children with education in the Chinese public school system. That is cultural genocide according to Uyghur World Congress. In Canada we have not had any problems like that since we sent Doukhobour children to detention camps because their parents would not send them to regular schools to be indoctrinated and assimilated. A cheap solution since the camps were left over from the Japanese intermittent a few years earlier.

Another dastardly thing the Chinese have done is  not only providing women with birth control, they have also taught them that they do not have to listen to their husbands or religious leaders. Simply an insidious attempt to destroy the natural order in a theocratic country.

NDPP

Stop Asian Hate

https://youtu.be/9oMPsYwOvDg

"Message from our Asian creator community."

Western foreign policy promotes anti-Asian hate crime and yellow peril xenophobia.

NDPP

"Xinjiang scholar who has been rumored as 'missing' by US-backed World Uyghur [Congress] attended UN Human Rights Council, debunking the West disinformation on China's Xinjiang."

https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1407687382590230532

JKR

Fox News Poll: Majority believes COVID-19 leaked from lab in China
----------------

Once dismissed as a conspiracy theory, today a 60 percent majority believes COVID-19 was created by scientists and leaked from a lab in China, according to a Fox News survey.  That’s nearly double the 31 percent who think the pandemic started naturally.  

That majority is largely comprised of 79 percent of Republicans and 58 percent of independents who blame a lab leak.  Forty-one percent of Democrats agree, while 46 percent believe the virus evolved from nature.  No direct scientific evidence has been made public that conclusively proves either perspective

NDPP

The same information in  JKR's Fox News story is being relentlessly promoted also by NYT, WaPo, the Guardian, CBC and most other western msm that babblers quite approve of. 

Although originating from Trump, Pompeo and the CIA, this fake news concoction, originally reviled by progressives, is now fully embraced by Biden's Dem machine in service to their own yellow peril war incitement campaign.

Just imagine, that great American disinformation and propaganda machine, US 'Intelligence' is charged with finding out 'the truth'.  As with 'Russiagate' there is apparently no shortage of sympathetic or gullible amplifiers and repeaters ready to share their shit.

https://www.sciencealert.com/here-s-what-scientists-think-of-the-coronav...

https://twitter.com/catcontentonly/status/1406448604873646088

NDPP

"For what it's worth many Chinese Canadians  refer to July 1st not as 'Canada Day' but as 'Humiliation Day' to mark the July 1, 1923 passing of the Chinese Exclusion Act, which banned all Chinese immigration into Canada for the next 23 years, ripping apart families and communities."

https://twitter.com/cultureofdefeat/status/1408487821078315010

kropotkin1951

Here is a little history of that multi-year protest.

Ironically, the Chinese Exclusion Act came into effect on July 1, 1923, a day of celebration for Canadians. At the time, it was called Dominion Day. Today we know it as Canada Day. As everyone else was celebrating on that day, the Chinese were suffering from loneliness and the separation from their families. It is no wonder that the Chinese referred to it as Humiliation Day.

July 1, Chinatown, Vancouver:

Old Wong: “Today is Dominion Day … a day of celebration for most Canadians…”

Old Chow: “But not for us! With this new Exclusion Act, my wife and my children have now no chance of joining me!”

Old Wong: “The Whites are enjoying the day with their families, while we are lonely and separated from our loved ones. This is truly a Day of Humiliation for us…”

Old Chow: “We have to stay away from all the ceremonies and celebrations ….”

Old Wong: “And close our shops, laundromats and restaurants, and withhold service!”

This was exactly what they did: they closed the doors and windows of their shops, to the big surprise and disappointment of their white customers.

The Chinese persevered in their long fight for equality until finally, in 1947, the Chinese Exclusion Act was at last abolished.

http://access-cht.ca/chinese-history/fight-for-rights/humiliation-day/?l...

 

NDPP

anti-spam bump

kropotkin1951

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Here is a little history of that multi-year protest.

Ironically, the Chinese Exclusion Act came into effect on July 1, 1923, a day of celebration for Canadians. At the time, it was called Dominion Day. Today we know it as Canada Day. As everyone else was celebrating on that day, the Chinese were suffering from loneliness and the separation from their families. It is no wonder that the Chinese referred to it as Humiliation Day.

July 1, Chinatown, Vancouver:

Old Wong: “Today is Dominion Day … a day of celebration for most Canadians…”

Old Chow: “But not for us! With this new Exclusion Act, my wife and my children have now no chance of joining me!”

Old Wong: “The Whites are enjoying the day with their families, while we are lonely and separated from our loved ones. This is truly a Day of Humiliation for us…”

Old Chow: “We have to stay away from all the ceremonies and celebrations ….”

Old Wong: “And close our shops, laundromats and restaurants, and withhold service!”

This was exactly what they did: they closed the doors and windows of their shops, to the big surprise and disappointment of their white customers.

The Chinese persevered in their long fight for equality until finally, in 1947, the Chinese Exclusion Act was at last abolished.

http://access-cht.ca/chinese-history/fight-for-rights/humiliation-day/?l...

Fuck spammers

NDPP

Anti-China sentiment is becoming anti-Chinese prejudice in Canada

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-anti-china-sentiment-is-...

"Anti-China sentiment is rising across the country, and so is anti-Asian hate. How are the two connected?"

NDPP

Message to the Peace Movement: A Summary of the New Cold War on China

https://www.blackagendareport.com/message-peace-movement-summary-new-col...

"The New Cold War is a tech war, a propaganda war, an economic war and a war to maintain US political and economic supremacy. Racism is an essential component of the New Cold War on China. We must be clear on who is the aggressor of this war, and that would be the United States and its allies..."

Including Canada, of course.

NDPP

China Pulls Itself Out of Poverty 100 Years into its Revolution

https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/07/02/china-pulls-itself-out-of-povert...

"On February 25, 2021, China's President Xi Jinping announced that his country of 1.4 billion had pulled its people out of poverty as defined internationally. Since 1981, 853 million Chinese people have lifted themselves out of poverty thanks to large-scale interventions from both the Chinese state and the Communist Party of China; according to the data of the World Bank, three out of four people worldwide who were lifted out of poverty live in China. 'No country has been able to lift hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in such a short time,' Xi said. In 1949, China was one of the world's poorest countries..."

 

In Full: Xi Jinping speaks at 100th anniversary of CCP

https://youtu.be/2gApVyE8HGM

Rikardo

Non-communist promotters of peaceful co-existance with China and its leaders should know that when we Westerners hear  "Communist Party" the Chinese hear  Gong Chan Dang  GCD "produce for-everyone party".  We know the Chinese word for the civil war loser Kuo Min Dang KMT but not the winner.  The GCD (CPC) for their own reasons have kept the old Bolshevik hammer-sickle (unlike the Communist Party of Canada,... ya!-there is one!)

kropotkin1951

Rikardo wrote:

Non-communist promotters of peaceful co-existance with China and its leaders should know that when we Westerners hear  "Communist Party" the Chinese hear  Gong Chan Dang  GCD "produce for-everyone party".  We know the Chinese word for the civil war loser Kuo Min Dang KMT but not the winner.  The GCD (CPC) for their own reasons have kept the old Bolshevik hammer-sickle (unlike the Communist Party of Canada,... ya!-there is one!)

I am not sure what exactly you are trying to say with this post. Here are the varous names of the CPC.

Chinese Communist Party (CCP), also called Communist Party of China (CPC), Chinese (Pinyin) Zhongguo Gongchan Dang or (Wade-Giles romanization) Chung-kuo Kung-ch’an Tang, political party of China. Since the establishment of the People’s Republic of China in 1949, the CCP has been in sole control of that country’s government.

NDPP

Mystery around 2 fired scientists points to larger issues at Canada's high-security lab, former colleagues say

https://twitter.com/rideauinstitute/status/1413097419949096964

"The relentless demonisation of China and the hysterical atmosphere that continues to be generated has totally distorted the actual facts and, much worse, set back vital scientific collaboration on infectious disease control."

As per Washington's lead, Canada's 'yellow peril' xenophobia is all the rage.

Pondering

Thanks Kro. I love your little history lessons. I won't remember the details but I do remember the most important parts. 

NDPP

US and Canada blame China for Microsoft Exchange Hack Earlier this Year

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/microsoft-exchange-hack-china-1.6108265

"Beijing accused of displaying a 'pattern of irresponsible behaviour in cyberspace.' NATO said it was determined to 'actively deter, defend against and counter the full spectrum of cyber threats.' The Communications Security Establishment ['Five Eyes' agency] report specifically blamed the majority of online attacks and threats to democratic processes in Canada and other parts of the world since 2015 on China, Russia and Iran..."

 

"China on Tuesday slammed unwarranted accusations made by the US and its allies regarding cyberattacks, urging the US to regulate itself and stop its cyber espionage against China. See more..."

https://twitter.com/CGTNOfficial/status/1417549673007570955

More wild western claims designed purely to sustain xenophobia and a war mentality to justify the steeply escalating costs of militarization the public will be expected to pay for.

NDPP

How to Prevent a New Cold War with China

https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/07/20/how-to-prevent-a-new-cold-war-wi...

"...The EAGLE Act would commit our tax dollars to dangerous anti-China relations, as well as wasteful and environmentally damaging military training, and an extra $7 billion of our tax dollars to the US Department of Defense.

Democrats have created a position in which they can lament Trump for isolationism and xenophobia while carrying forward many of the very same policies.

It's hard to take these claims seriously when their language quickly devolves from a focused critique of another government to a dangerous, racist characterization of an entire culture - one that has existed for over 5,000 years with 56 contemporary ethnicities and a long history of cultural complexity..."

NDPP

China can work with the US, not the paranoid hegemon

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2021-07-26/China-can-work-with-the-U-S-not-th...

"...The United States is a paranoid hegemon. Xie discussed the phenomenon of the 'Sputnik moment' in America's foreign policy, the tendency that US politicians are easily led to feel insecure by the achievements or actions of a foreign country. That insecurity goes so far as waging a militantly adversarial foreign policy to secure US global dominance.

America is a country that is always looking for an enemy of some kind and frequently elicits mass hysteria through its media channels, demonizing the 'opponent' in order to justify and win support for its aggressive policies, proclaiming threats to the world that don't exist..."

NDPP

US - China Talks Point to a Longer Conflict

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/07/us-china-talks-point-to-a-longer-c...

"The US wants to slice and dice its approach to China. It will use all means to take advantage of China when it can, while restricting China in those fields where it can no longer compete with it. The Chinese reject that approach.

The US, they say, should not see China as an enemy. It should stop lecturing China, accept it as an equal and cooperate. The SCMP summarizes:

'China has for the first time given the US a list of red lines and remedial actions it must take to repair relations, including lifting sanctions and dropping its extradition request for Huawei financial chief Meng Wanzhou..."

NDPP

Canada's Ex-Chief Justice Renews Job on Top Hong Kong Court despite Beijing's Tightening Grip

https://nationalpost.com/news/canadas-ex-chief-justice-renews-job-on-top...

"After her first stint as a foreign judge on Hong Kong's highest court, Beverley McLachlin was adamant the city's judiciary remained independent, despite increasing pressure from Beijing. That was late 2019. A lot has happened in the enclave since the former Supreme Court of Canada chief justice finished her first assignment there.

Despite Beijing's tightening grip on the city, however, McLachlin has just agreed to serve another three-year term on the the Court of Final Appeal, triggering headed controversy in a legal community where she's otherwise revered...

But Jonathan Rosenthal, a respected criminal lawyer and another governing 'bencher' of the law society said he has no doubt that McLachlin - with her 'incredible legacy' on the bench will do the right thing. 'We have to recognize who Beverley McLachlin is, the important role she played as a jurist in Canada,' said Rosenthal. 'If she came to the conclusion that she couldn't make independent and correct decisions, I'm very confident...she would take the appropriate step and resign..."

LOL! The elite are always the first to jump ship if the price is right. As if banging down her gavel on the unceded, stolen land upon which the SCC stands on behalf of the Canadian settler-state is all that different from banging it down for 'the rule of law' in the contested colonial hell-hole that is Hong Kong. Besides, good gigs are hard to come by and nothing to sneeze at, even for a Canadian ex Chief Just-Us. And the food in Hong Kong is WAY better too.

archon

Before I make my comment, I'll inform this thread that I am a Canadian expatraite living in Taiwan for 15 years.  I also lived in Wuhan, China for a number of months a few years ago.  I am also a socialist and was a member of the NDP until 2014.  Now that's out of the way...

Of course the American Empire is a world hegemon with imperialist designs.  This doesn't excuse the Peoples' Republic of China for denying socialised medicine, failing to provide free education, censoring media including the internet, ignoring workers' demands for fair labour laws, attempting to control the nine-dash line international sea corridor, threatening Taiwan, and ignoring rule of law.

Anybody on the left who thinks that China is some sort of socialist paradise is seriously deluded.  It combines the worst aspects of surveillance state with libertarian economics. This is exactly contrary to socialist principles. Yes, there are state enterprises, but they are run in reality by a small clique of industrialists. China, especially under the current leadership of Xi Jinping and his cohorts, is as far away from the principles of the Communist Manifesto as can get, and is alot closer to the Fourteen Characteristics of Fascism. Chinese people I know say the situation in China has become alot worse since Xi assumed power. If my time in China felt tight and restricted, I cannot imagine what it is now.

There is plenty of evidence to show that COVID-19 originated in the Wuhan Institute of Virology. There is more evidence of gain of function experiments and multiple sequence genetic engineering than naturally occuring genetic changes causing this pandemic. The Chinese were not the only ones doing these experiments; the Americans and Europeans were involved, too.  Think; how can a bat and pangolin create this virus on their own? Interspecies sex?

Taiwan is not the quasi-fascist dictatorship many of you who never visited think it is. It is over a generation a thriving democracy and robust economy with a community-minded populace.  As I've said, I live in Taiwan. It is a better place to live than Canada. And it has the highest rated socialised medical system in the world. Think about that, fellow Canadians, the next time you are waiting for weeks for your medical treatment.  Is anyone not concerned about China mounting invasion plans for Taiwan? Sudentenland, anyone? 

Before we complain about China-bashing, do some research and investigating. Just because you see red flags, hammers and sickles, and a Communist Party, doesn't mean it's socialist. 

We should go after the American Empire. We should also go after China that betrays the principles of Karl Marx.

melovesproles

archon wrote:

 It combines the worst aspects of surveillance state with libertarian economics.

It's hard to take you seriously when you make this kind of statement. What part of China's foreign exchange controls and regulation of its Captial markets is "libertarian economics"? Why have actual "libertarian economists" advised the complete opposite in every country they have had sway? Or China's massive infrastructure and R&D spending. Do you know what libertarian economics is?

archon wrote:

Is anyone not concerned about China mounting invasion plans for Taiwan? Sudentenland, anyone? 

Why do you think Canada should be able to intervene or interfere in Taiwan? Where do we get that authority from? 

Obviously I'm not against diplomacy to promote peace and human rights but I don't see any actual strategic diplomatic thinking in those wanting to shame China into changing it's policies on domestic security or its relations with countries within its sphere of influence. You've lived in China and Taiwan, do you seriously think that is going to be effective? Diplomacy would mean considering what China's concerns are and how much we can address them in order to have some of our concerns addressed. But that kind of diplomacy isn't done through loud (hypocritical) public namecalling or sabre-rattling.

I've visited Taiwan. It is a nice place. I've lived in China too and I didn't find it anywhere near as oppressive as what you are saying. I actually found it ideologically diverse-probably more so than Canada in many ways.

archon

By libertarian economics I'm talking about very sustandard labour, consumer rights, and environmental regulations.  I don't think it's a problem with the Chinese government viewing high speed rail as a public good rather than in Canada and the west as a cost on the ledgerboard. However, these state-owned corporations are Communist Party controlled under the guise of state ownership. There is no distinction here between party and state, so they might as well be private corporations.  I'm knowledgable about libertarian economic theory, and the Ayn Rand / Austrian School ilk that spew their scumbag nonsense.  Can you take me seriously now?

Of course I want a diplomatic solution. Both the American Empire and Xi Jinping's warhawks are to blame for escalating tensions.  The PLAAF flies on average two sorties per day around Taiwan, draining the ROC Air Force's defence capabilities. Taiwan has to be ready for a conflict. For it's own interests the 'democratic countries' have to defend Taiwan. That's just the sad reality.

Like you I had free-ranging discussions with Chinese friends. I agree it was more intellectually free than Canada. I even had interesting exchanges with local Communists. Now my Chinese friends say things have in the past five years become hush-hush.  In 2018 the Beijing University Marxist Studies Club was forced to disband and some members thrown in reeducation camps to recant. A communist regime locking up Marxists? 

If you want to debate my points that's very welcome. You may even constructively criticise my line of reasoning. But, please don't start your counterpoints with "it's hard to take you seriously."  It's very condescending.

melovesproles

archon wrote:

By libertarian economics I'm talking about ...

[snip]

If you want to debate my points that's very welcome. You may even constructively criticise my line of reasoning. But, please don't start your counterpoints with "it's hard to take you seriously."  It's very condescending.

Sorry but how am I supposed to take seriously "China is economically libertarian' except not in all the ways that it isn't. That's like saying Vancouver is landlocked except for the Pacific Ocean. China intervenes in their economy in ways that are the antithesis of economic libertarianism. In fact we've seen several examples of countries that wholeheartedly embraced the adivice of economic libertarians and allowed their assets to be stripped, plunged into debt, their markets raided and disciplined by the IMF and World Bank: see Russia, Indonesia, Greece etc. China smartly avoided that economic libertarian nonsense and has had the fastest growing economy for several decades. 

Saying there is nothing for socialists to admire in China also ignores the fact that China has statistically done more to eliminate global poverty than any other factor in the world.

And I strongly disagree that it's a "sad reality" that Western democracies need to militarily intervene in Taiwan. It's not our sphere of influence and the only reason why we think it is is the historical legacy of imperialism. I know Taiwanese people who want closer ties to China so it's not like Taiwan is a monolithic political bloc. They will have to engage with China diplomatically without relying on military protection from empires on the other side of the globe. 

And as for

Quote:
very sustandard labour, consumer rights, and environmental regulations.

China has made progress in all of those areas. Maybe not to the level of Taiwan yet but I think they will head in the right direction more as a reaction to domestic pressure than anything else. 

To be fair I was in China before the Trump/Biden belligerence and I think that obviously hasn't helped progressive movements. 

archon

As a former resident of the island of Saskatchewan, I find your comment highly offensive! 

Seriously, any political party is a private entity. In any dictatorship, the ruling party is the defacto owner of state mechanisms. Reference Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Pinochet Chile, Francoist Spain, Communist Cuba, and the People's Republic of China. The left-wing dictatorships may have a principled and moral edge over their right-wing counterparts in the operations of state mechanisms, but it is essentially the same.  Party defacto ownership is therefore private ownership. Private ownership is not left wing.  Ownership by a democratic government or autonomous workers' control is. I say this is tantamount to libertarian economics.

I completely agree with your arguement that libertarian preceipts have destroyed entire economies. Case in point, Sears Corporation was taken over by Austrian economists and turned into a libertarian experiment. Look where it is now. My point is that the Chinese economy is run for the benefit of the Chinese Communist Party, not for the public good or any long term goal towards socialism.

Has China conquered poverty? I'm sure many Chinese have worked their way out of poverty and into the middle class. However, I do think this 'poverty elimination' has somewhat, if not much, to do with economic accounting slieght of hand.

Many Taiwanese work in China, do business, and form personal relationships with Chinese people. Some do want "reunificiation," but most want peace across the Taiwan straight. Besides, the percentage of Taiwanese wanting to join the PRC is now in single digits according to public opinion polls.

Of course Trump and Biden are stoking the flames of war. The military industrial complex needs a reason to carry on. The Republicrats are in their pockets.

Don't get me wrong. I love China and the Chinese people, just as much as I have love for my Taiwanese friends and family. I want the best for China and Taiwan. I want peace and economic justice and democracy. It's just that lately China feels like an attractive girlfriend who's become unfaithful. I'm heartbroken.

 

NDPP

"The COVID-19 pandemic has left deep scars on international relations because the US has been trying to convert the war between humanity and the virus into a geopolitical contest between major powers by politicizing the origins/tracing of the virus."

https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1422582997421756419

 

"The US is desperate to turn its conflict with China into a collision between the West and China. China should prove to the world that the China-US conflict and friction between China and the West are strategically different."

https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1422592387876986885

kropotkin1951

archon wrote:

The left-wing dictatorships may have a principled and moral edge over their right-wing counterparts in the operations of state mechanisms, but it is essentially the same.  Party defacto ownership is therefore private ownership. Private ownership is not left wing.  Ownership by a democratic government or autonomous workers' control is. I say this is tantamount to libertarian economics.

Frankly I cannot understand what you are trying to say so please try to be a little clearer. For instance, Canada is a "democratic" country does that make TMX a left wing infrastructure project?  Is the government of Taiwan a "democratic" government and does that make the Bank of Taiwan a left win organization?

How do you think the CPC push to regulate its top billionaires to protect consumers compares to "democratic" countries and is it libertarian or left wing, or fascist, or socialist; like Cuba or Sweden, or Belarus. 

 

https://www.scmp.com/tech/policy/article/3140625/chinas-antitrust-regula...

 

archon

Nationalisation is indeed viewed as a left-wing policy. Privatisation is viewed as right-wing. This is the general viewpoint amongst both economists and laypeople. This is the viewpoint I'm alluding to. TMX nationalisation was a left-wing move economically, but with right-wing political basis. The Bank of Taiwan is indeed left-wing by economic perspective. I'm glad I have an account with it!

My point of view is that when there is no dividing line between the Chinese Communist Party and the government of China, any nationalised industry is simultaneously privately owned by the CCP for its' internal benefit and strategic aims. Private ownership is right-wing, or classical liberal economics. 

Finally, if the CPC is trying to 'regulate' Chinese billionaires, why was the founder of Alibaba arrested, detained for months, and forced to write a confession? What was the point of that other than to intimidate him? It would have been more honestly left-wing to confiscate his personal wealth and nationalise Alibaba. To answer you, it's not at all about regulating the rich or protecting consumers. It's intimidation and protecting the political power of the CPC. I'd say that is fascist.

 Anyways, this thread is getting way off the basic content of my initial post.

melovesproles

archon wrote:

Has China conquered poverty? I'm sure many Chinese have worked their way out of poverty and into the middle class. However, I do think this 'poverty elimination' has somewhat, if not much, to do with economic accounting slieght of hand.

Yeah reducing poverty by hundreds of millions of people is a really easy thing to fake. 

We should ignore all the data because it doesn't fit your opinion on the CCP.

archon wrote:

Seriously, any political party is a private entity. In any dictatorship, the ruling party is the defacto owner of state mechanisms. Reference Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Pinochet Chile, Francoist Spain, Communist Cuba, and the People's Republic of China. The left-wing dictatorships may have a principled and moral edge over their right-wing counterparts in the operations of state mechanisms, but it is essentially the same.  Party defacto ownership is therefore private ownership. 

That is not the compelling argument that you think it is. There are obvious differences between a political party and a private corporation. For example, a corporation's driving motivation is to maximize profit. A political party's driving motivations are much more complicated and it has to take into account the people who it wants to govern. Also, someone can join a political party and become involved with its internal democracy. Obviously political parties can become corrupt and unresponsive but the structure is still significantly different than private corporations.

archon wrote:

It's just that lately China feels like an attractive girlfriend who's become unfaithful. I'm heartbroken.

That's an odd way to think of China so not totally surprising that you feel the need to ignore data and reinvent defintions to fit your feelings. 

archon

United Nations information shows the Chinese government adjusted its' data coefficient on poverty levels DOWNWARD to make it seem that poverty was decreasing. People are still poor, but now their economic status is better because of a change in accounting calculations? It's obvious that China is doing what major corporations do with their ledgerboards: doctor the numbers to make themselves look better

The Chinese Communist Party does not operate on the same "internal democracy" principles as the NDP, Greens, and other political parties in the world. When you join the CCP you either tow the line or you are out. And if someone up the heirarchy doesn't like you, you are targetted. 

I'm not the one ignoring data and reinventing definitions, it's you. Are you that naive and ignorant and blind to reality? Move to China if you think it's so great. 

You can go back to your echo chamber of 'intersectionality,' identity politics, cancel culture, 'calling out,' political correctness, genital fixation, abandoning socialist economic principles, being aggressively oversensitive snowflakes, and whatever else that has degenerated the left over the past 40 years.

If you decide to exit your echo chamber, I'll be waiting outside in the real world ready to help you alongside the silent majority of the true left. 

kropotkin1951

archon wrote:

Finally, if the CPC is trying to 'regulate' Chinese billionaires, why was the founder of Alibaba arrested, detained for months, and forced to write a confession? What was the point of that other than to intimidate him? It would have been more honestly left-wing to confiscate his personal wealth and nationalise Alibaba. To answer you, it's not at all about regulating the rich or protecting consumers. It's intimidation and protecting the political power of the CPC. I'd say that is fascist.

Nationalism is a left wing policy. Sorry but I am not familiar with that political studies theory. Can you point me to some scholars who use that terminology

Here is a good analysis of what happened with Alibaba and its owner. I prefer to get my China news from sources other than the Epoch Media Group. This thread is about the Demonization of China and you just misunderstood that it was to talk about how demonizing China is a bad thing. It would be easy to think it was a place to come and randomly demonize the CPC and its system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo6seEEH4gM

kropotkin1951

archon wrote:

The Chinese Communist Party does not operate on the same "internal democracy" principles as the NDP, Greens, and other political parties in the world. When you join the CCP you either tow the line or you are out. And if someone up the heirarchy doesn't like you, you are targetted. 

This sentence proves you have never been actively involved in Canadian politics. Tell Bill Siskay how it is not necessary to toe the line in the NDP, just for starters.

Quote:

You can go back to your echo chamber of 'intersectionality,' identity politics, cancel culture, 'calling out,' political correctness, genital fixation, abandoning socialist economic principles, being aggressively oversensitive snowflakes, and whatever else that has degenerated the left over the past 40 years.

If you decide to exit your echo chamber, I'll be waiting outside in the real world ready to help you alongside the silent majority of the true left. 

Shit man I just asked you a couple of simple questions to determine what you mean. I love poking trolls but usually they don't implode so easy.

archon

I'm not a troll. I'm here to present my point of view. 

I don't read the Epoch News; it's garbage.  You tell me I wasn't actively involved in Canadian politics. How insulting. Ask the members of the Langley NDP if they remember me. You tell me that I "ignore data and reinvent definitions." You weren't asking simple questions, or debating me, you were attacking me ad hominem.

Reread your responses to my posts. Quite frankly you are gaslighting me. You are insulting me.  It is extremely rude and a sign you don't know your own position well enough. I feel perfectly entitled to counterattack you.  Have I imploded?  

Get out of your basement, get on your mask, and go for a walk. You need some oxygen.

kropotkin1951

archon wrote:

Anybody on the left who thinks that China is some sort of socialist paradise is seriously deluded.  It combines the worst aspects of surveillance state with libertarian economics. This is exactly contrary to socialist principles. Yes, there are state enterprises, but they are run in reality by a small clique of industrialists. China, especially under the current leadership of Xi Jinping and his cohorts, is as far away from the principles of the Communist Manifesto as can get, and is alot closer to the Fourteen Characteristics of Fascism. Chinese people I know say the situation in China has become alot worse since Xi assumed power. If my time in China felt tight and restricted, I cannot imagine what it is now.

There is plenty of evidence to show that COVID-19 originated in the Wuhan Institute of Virology. There is more evidence of gain of function experiments and multiple sequence genetic engineering than naturally occuring genetic changes causing this pandemic.

This is our new posters first post. Since I do not believe China is a socialist paradise I thought I am not "seriously deluded" so I was happy about that. That was the start of your respectful conversation on this left wing discussion board. However since my academic field is Political Studies I was very serious in trying to determine what YOU meant by the terms you were throwing around since they were not quite in accord with my understanding of the commonly held definitions.

Your first post also comes close to going against our moderators ban on false information about COVID.

I am sorry if I miss understood your honorable intentions but I think it was a reasonable mistake given the right wing bent to the way you discuss forms of government and the insistence that COVID is a Chinese lab experiment plus preceding those things with the introductory line, "Anybody on the left ... is seriously deluded."

kropotkin1951

archon wrote:

You can go back to your echo chamber of 'intersectionality,' identity politics, cancel culture, 'calling out,' political correctness, genital fixation, abandoning socialist economic principles, being aggressively oversensitive snowflakes, and whatever else that has degenerated the left over the past 40 years.

If you decide to exit your echo chamber, I'll be waiting outside in the real world ready to help you alongside the silent majority of the true left. 

As for respectful debate it is strange that after I asked you to explain some technical terms you were using in a discussion about government and economic systems this is what you presumed my views were. If you note none of them have anything to do with what is a socialist system compared to a libertarian or fascist system. Then you accuse me of gaslighting you. LMAOROF

You are the true left and the Bank of Taiwan is a socialist enterprise and you love the Chinese people and that is why you are sorry they are so oppressed. I guess I just may be seriously delusional because I disagree with almost all of your analysis.

melovesproles

archon wrote:

United Nations information shows the Chinese government adjusted its' data coefficient on poverty levels DOWNWARD to make it seem that poverty was decreasing. People are still poor, but now their economic status is better because of a change in accounting calculations? It's obvious that China is doing what major corporations do with their ledgerboards: doctor the numbers to make themselves look better

You are deluded if you think decades of eliminating poverty for hundreds of millions of people is just a matter of creative accounting that fooled the World Bank and every organization that tracks poverty globally including the UN. Please provide links to the “United Nations information” that says China hasn’t brought poverty levels down at a historic rate. Because you can quibble about a million here or there but as the BBC (not known for its glowing coverage of China) in this critical piece acknowledges (something you seem unable to do) that

However, by any measure China has made huge strides to lift millions out of the toughest standards of living over the last few decades.

[snip]

Using these figures gives us a better standard measurement used by the World Bank across all countries.

In 1990 there were more than 750 million people in China living below the international poverty line - about two-thirds of the population.

By 2012, that had fallen to fewer than 90 million, and by 2016 - the most recent year for which World Bank figures are available - it had fallen to 7.2 million people (0.5% of the population).

So clearly, even in 2016 China was well on the way to reaching its target.

This suggests that overall, 745 million fewer people were living in extreme poverty in China than were 30 years ago.

World Bank figures do not take us to the present day, but the trend is certainly in line with the Chinese government's announcement.

Elsewhere in the region, Vietnam has also seen a dramatic fall in extreme poverty rates over a similar period.

Another large country, India, had 22% of its population living below the international poverty line in 2011 (the most recent data available).

But India is a “democracy” with more than one political party so “Socialists” should ignore the fact they haven’t done near the job China has in tackling poverty.

I’ve travelled fairly extensively in both countries and I would say the World Bank Stats pass the eye test. India’s high rate of poverty is everywhere: corpses on the sidewalk, shanty towns full of unclothed children encircling train stations etc. I’ve never seen anywhere near that level of poverty in China. ‘Poor people’ for sure and inequality yes. But the difference is striking.

Saying this is all just sleight of hand is next level conspiracy theory. You would need more than just some clever accountants, I mean I don’t think Stanley Kubrick could pull this off. China would need full-on magic using wizards. How far down the rabbit hole do you need to climb to ignore the mountains of evidence that don’t jive with your opinion that poverty has not been reduced in China on a historic level? But yeah blame “genital fixation” in a thread that has nothing to do with the topic until you introduce it for some reason (obviously not because you are genital fixated).

archon wrote:

Move to China if you think it's so great. 

That old xenophobic chestnut. If I moved to every country I thought was great, I’d be living in 30+ countries at the same time. Which is physically impossible, not that gauging what is physically impossible seems to be your strong suit..

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