Green Party coup

835 posts / 0 new

Fri, 2020-10-30 21:08

Left Turn

Pondering wrote:
I heard on the news last night that the NDP is down to 13% with support going to the Liberals. NDP strategy isn't working.

jerrym wrote:
In other words, both parties bounced up and down in the polls within certain margins with the NDP in October up 1.0%and the Greens down 0.5% in their October average compared to their results in the 2019 election. For comparisons sake the Liberals average for October is 36.6%, up 3.5% in October compared to the 2019 election, while the Conservatives averaged 31.3% in October, down 3.0% compared to the 2019 election. So most the voter movement has occurred between the Liberals and Conservatives, with the NDP up slightly and the Greens down slightly on average. The margins for a Liberal majority are paper thin and within the margin of error if an election is called in the immediate future. While an election campaign could dramatically increase or decrease any party's vote share depending on what happened, there is no guarantee that would benefit or harm any particular party or leave the end results pretty much as they are right now, as campaigns each have their own rhythm.

Looks to me as though voters are flocking to incumbent parties across the board in Canada, because pandemic.

Sat, 2020-10-31 06:31

(Reply to #252) #253

jerrym

Left Turn wrote:

Looks to me as though voters are flocking to incumbent parties across the board in Canada, because pandemic.

The election campaigns tell a somewhat more complicated story. In the New Brunswick election, the Conservatives had a 16% lead over the Liberals early the election campaign on August 30th but ended up winning by 5% over the Liberals with a ho-hum campaign while the Greens were able to keep their three seats. In BC, the Conservatives self-destructed during the campaign and suffered historic losses in their modern iteration, while the NDP performed well in the campaign, increasing their vote share during the campaign, won more seats than they ever have and are expected to win more after all votes are counted, while the Greens were able to maintain their three seats because of a good campaign, despite many expecting them to be wiped out by the NDP. The Saskatchewan Party ran a smooth campaign while there was some internal fighting campaign in the NDP during the campaign, resulting in a large SP victory when this was combined with the perception that they handled Covid well. In other words, if one is perceived to have done a good job on the pandemic, there is a definite advantage in being the government, but the election campaign still will have a major impact on what happens. Furthermore, a party can maintain or even improve its vote share without being in power as the NDP has done with an average of a 1.0% small increase federally over ten polls during October from the 2019 election results, if it actions are viewed favorably by voters.

Also the Ontario and Quebec polls tell a somewhat different story. In Quebec, at the height of their pandemic crisis the CAQ fell in May and June from 52% in March to 38% on June 1st and as things improved in the summer they reached 57% on August 28th, the last poll listed on Wikipedia. Now the question is the CAQ going to or is already suffering with the high infection rates now.

A similar story can be seen in Ontario, with the PCs dropping from 43% to 31% during the early crisis then climbing back to 48% by September 3rd. However, unlike Quebec, we now have an October poll showing them at 36% on October 12th. So there can be rapid increases and drops in popularity depending on how voters perceive one's performance on the pandemic.

Now that we are in a second wave, incumbency could cause other provinces to rise and fall depending on how they are perceived. Manitoba, for example, has just become the province with the highest per capita number of active Covid cases, so its government may find itself in popularity problems if this is not quickly corrected. This could also happen to the federal Liberals if things go badly in many places during the second wave and the Liberal response to the second wave is seen as problematic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43rd_Ontario_general_election

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43rd_Quebec_general_election

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_New_Brunswick_general_election

Sat, 2020-10-31 02:04

#254

Pondering

Here's hoping the Liberals bleed support to the NDP and the Paul-Greens crash and burn.

Sat, 2020-10-31 22:45

#255

jerrym

ETA: Perhaps out of tiredness I did not look at what is happening in the Manitoba and Alberta polls after taking the time to analyze the polls and election campaigns in several provinces shown above in post #253.

Generally, the Manitoba government has been perceived to be doing well in handling the pandemic because its total number of Covid-19 cases has been small. However in the last week, not only has the number of Covid-19 cases spiked in Manitoba, the situation is now being perceived differently because people now realize that this spike has given the province the highest Covid case load per capita in the country. Up to now, the PC government, although down slightly from its 47.1% in the September 2019 election, has done relatively well in the polls, staying between 42% and 45% since the September 2019 election, with one outlier poll of 38% in the middle of the six polls time wise. The question now is how will becoming the reigning Covid case per capita leader affect the PC's and other parties poll numbers if this case situation is not correctly corrected. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43rd_Manitoba_general_election)

Alberta's situation is even more complicated because the province has another crisis ocurring simultaneously - the collapse of oil prices and the Alberta economy that actually began well before Covid hit. The UCP had already fallen from its April 2019 54.9% election to 42% by November 2019 and was tied with the NDP at 38% by the September 1st 2020 poll, which is the latest poll on Wiki. The recent rapid rise is Covid cases could well help push them below the NDP in the next poll. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/31st_Alberta_general_election) What The other provinces seem to be telling us is that what happens with Covid is the most powerful determinant factor in a party's fortune, but if there is another dominant issue also playing into the picture, such as in Alberta, the electoral story could have both factors playing a major affect in party popularity.

Other than discussing the New Brunswick election in post #253, I left the Maritimes and territories out of the analysis because their low total Covid case numbers have helped all of them remain pretty popular.

Sun, 2020-11-01 12:04

#256

Pondering

I would love to see a return of the NDP in Alberta.

Fri, 2021-06-11 11:17

(Reply to #256) #257

Pondering

Pondering wrote:

Here's hoping the Liberals bleed support to the NDP and the Paul-Greens crash and burn.

And so it continues.

https://ipolitics.ca/2021/06/10/mp-atwins-departure-the-culmination-of-m...

Both Zatzman and Paul are Jewish. Paul did not condemn Zatzman for his Facebook post, despite calls from many within the Green Party to speak out against him and support Manly and Atwin.

Dimitry Lascaris, who ran against Paul for leadership of the Greens last year, told iPolitics on Thursday that something has changed within the party over the past few months.

“(There is) no question that the party is going through an extraordinarily difficult time… and it is imperative for the leader to get ahead of this… and support her MPs,” Lascaris said.

The opportunity to take over an established political party by progressives is a once in a generation opportunity.

I absolutely do not support the Green Party in its current form. I joined the Green Party so I will have an opportunity to participate in the coup against the right wing. My conscience is not at all troubled by voting NDP in my riding while being a member of the Greens. It is a hostile takeover.

If a few thousand socialists join the Green Party to support Lascaris he will win and he will be a voice on the national stage. If this dosesn't happen there are too few socialists in Canada or we are all hopelessly inept including myself.

He lost by 2,009 votes. Can we not drum up 5K or even 10K socialists to put him way over the top?

2.1.4.5

Within six months of a Federal General Election, unless the leader becomes prime minister, a Leadership Review, where all Members in good standing may vote, shall be held. The date of the Leadership Review vote will be set by Federal Council and may coincide with a General Meeting. The Leader's term shall end if Members in good standing do not pass a resolution endorsing the Leader by at least 60%.

https://www.greenparty.ca/en/party/documents/constitution

There will likely be a federal election within the year. Six months after that there will be a leadership review.

So, we have 1 to 1 1/2 years to help put lascaris over the top. I can't do a lot but I will ask my daughter to research him because she will support him if she does and she has a lot of progressive friends. I will support the Rational Nation/David Doel because he supports Lascaris. No one even has to join the party now. Just before the next leadership vote.

I will be so disheartened if we can't find a few thousand activists to act on this golden opportunity to transform the Greens into an eco-socialist party. What are the chances that an eco-socialist party will rise from the ground up or that the NDP will be transformed into one?

Sun, 2021-06-13 21:44

(Reply to #257) #258

melovesproles

Pondering wrote:

There will likely be a federal election within the year. Six months after that there will be a leadership review.

So, we have 1 to 1 1/2 years to help put lascaris over the top.

I think he needs to run in the election. He doesn't need to win but he needs to find a riding that he can represent and build a base. Most people I know are so soured with the Federal Green brand that it was a hard sell getting anyone to join the party to vote for Lascaris. I've had more luck signing up people for less impressive candidates in other leadership contests in the past. If he can outperform Paul in an election, then it would go a long way to making his case. I know I'd donate to him if he made a run regardless of what riding he chose. I think it will be much harder to get people excited about his leadership chances if he still hasn't started doing the work he would need to do if he wants to be an MP let alone a party leader.

Mon, 2021-06-14 12:53

#259

kropotkin1951

There are no safe seats anywhere in Canada for an eco-socialist to run in. I agree that if he wants to be an MP he will have to build his own team in the right riding and run to win but hope for at least a solid second place finish. When I worked on Svend's campaigns our ace in the hole was that after his leadership run we got enough national donations to spend the campaign limit without having the central campaign involved. Plus we got volunteers from all over the Lower Mainland to knock on doors and staff the phone banks.

Tue, 2021-06-15 10:50

#260

Mighty Middle

From Tyee

Sources close to the situation told The Tyee that rookie leader Paul has rejected any analysis that concludes that she was responsible for Atwin’s decision to join the Liberals. Those sources say that Paul was convinced that Atwin was a threat to her leadership, and as the former parliamentary seatmate of former Liberal cabinet minister Jody Wilson-Raybould, had been whispering to the Grits for a long time about joining them.

Sources within the Green Party told The Tyee that the grassroots of the party, especially younger voters, saw Atwin as the natural future leader of the party. As the sense grew that installing Paul as Leader was a major mistake, Atwin was seen as the right choice as interim party leader

https://thetyee.ca/News/2021/06/14/Green-Implosion-Remaining-MPs-Ask-Jen...

Tue, 2021-06-15 11:36

#261

Pondering

Fantastic good news MM, thanks!

If the controversy over Paul continues to spiral downwards in the defection of Atwin, the party’s constitution allows for a review of her leadership, provided three-quarters of the National Council of the Green Party support that measure.

I noticed no mention of Lascaris who was only 2K votes short of winning against Paul. While of course I wish for peace in Palestine the issue seems to be a catalyst for defeating the right wing of the party. The grassroots/members of the party seem to be decidedly leftist. Paul ran her campaign from the left refusing to comment on international affairs and going heavy on the black, female and jewish angle. She seems to think it is reason enough to elect her. Lascaris is a socialist so both lead candidates ran campaigns from the left.

The executive of the Green Party may still be farther right but it seems they realized that the party members are on the left hence their attempt to put Paul forward.

Wed, 2021-06-16 05:31

#262

nicky

Whoever takes over the Greens the party will continue to attempt to undermine the NDP with the effect, as has been demonstrated election after election, of throwing several seats unnecessarily to the Cons and Libs.

The best result for progressive politics in Canada is for the Greens simply to dry up and blow away.

Wed, 2021-06-16 05:35

(Reply to #262) #263

Debater

nicky wrote:

Whoever takes over the Greens the party will continue to attempt to undermine the NDP with the effect, as has been demonstrated election after election, of throwing several seats unnecessarily to the Cons and Libs.

The best result for progressive politics in Canada is for the Greens simply to dry up and blow away.

The Greens take support from the NDP, yes, but they also take some from the Liberals -- Fredericton was a notable example of that in 2019.

Wed, 2021-06-16 06:01

#264

nicky

Fredericton was hardly an NDP prospect.

Paul has been quite explicit in wanting to go after NDP seats and voters, scarcely mentioning the Liberals.

May has always leveled far more criticism at the NDP than at the other parties.

Wed, 2021-06-16 07:20

#265

nicky

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/annamie-paul-leadership-1.6067380

Paul survives for now

Wed, 2021-06-16 08:36

#266

josh

She was required to repudiate Zatzman, and hasn't done it yet.

Wed, 2021-06-16 10:00

(Reply to #266) #267

Pondering

nicky wrote:

Fredericton was hardly an NDP prospect.

Paul has been quite explicit in wanting to go after NDP seats and voters, scarcely mentioning the Liberals.

May has always leveled far more criticism at the NDP than at the other parties.

So what? No one here supports Paul. The Greens are in a civil war and the left is gaining ground. We need a socialist party. Our best chance is to take over the Greens because the NDP is about as leftist as the 1970s Liberals and every bit as set in their ways. So now they are barely left of the Liberals and the Liberals even managed to outflank the NDP on the left. The establishment has its hooks in all 4 parties, Conservatives, Liberals, NDP and Greens. The left has a much better chance of taking over the Greens than they do the NDP.

Wed, 2021-06-16 10:21

(Reply to #267) #268

Pondering

josh wrote:

She was required to repudiate Zatzman, and hasn't done it yet.

From the article...

The motion also calls for Paul to "explicitly support" the Green Party caucus. If not, the motion says, Paul would face a vote of non-confidence on July 20.

With an official date in place for the vote of non-confidence she will probably give in but it isn't certain as she has resisted the pressure so far. This is a really drastic step to force her hand. I think the only reason she is surviving is that there is so little time to establish a new leader before the next election.

Thu, 2021-06-17 08:10

(Reply to #268) #269

Debater

nicky wrote:

Fredericton was hardly an NDP prospect.

Paul has been quite explicit in wanting to go after NDP seats and voters, scarcely mentioning the Liberals.

May has always leveled far more criticism at the NDP than at the other parties.

The Greens target the NDP, yes, but they also target the Liberals.

Fredericton was an example of a Liberal-held seat that was taken away by the Greens. In fact, there was a noticeable increase in Green support at the expense of the Liberals in many Atlantic ridings in 2019, partially as a result of the provincial Green momentum, and partially as a result of the Green federal campaign. All 4 Liberal-held seats on PEI saw a loss of vote share to the Greens. It could also be observed in ridings like Beausejour where Dominic Leblanc lost a good chunk of his vote share to the Greens.

And in Vancouver-Granville, May publically admitted that she wanted the Greens to try and help Jody Wilson-Raybould win her seat against the Liberal candidate.

In Ontario the provincial Greens took away the Liberal-held riding of Guelph, and have also targeted the riding at the Federal level.

You are correct that there is a lot of bad blood between the Greens and the NDP and that the Greens worked hard to target NDP ridings on Vancouver Island in 2019.

But yesterday in her news conference, Anamie Paul attacked Justin Trudeau and blamed him for the division in the Green Party. So the fact remains that the Greens are no friend to the Liberals, either.

Thu, 2021-06-17 17:16

#270

Pondering

The NDP are often accused of targeting the Liberals and not the Conservatives during election campaigns. Just as the Conservatives want a strong NDP to weaken the Liberals, the NDP doesn't want a strong Conservative because they could actually win but they don't want them to weaken too much because it benefits the Liberals.

Conservatives, Liberals, NDP and Greens are all centrist at best unless the Green Party leadership is overthrown.

Thu, 2021-06-17 19:55

(Reply to #270) #271

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

Fredericton was hardly an NDP prospect.

Paul has been quite explicit in wanting to go after NDP seats and voters, scarcely mentioning the Liberals.

May has always leveled far more criticism at the NDP than at the other parties.

The share the presumption that the Greens are simply entitled to the votes of all progressives, whether their policies are actually progressive or not.

One thing is now clear...the NDP needs to reach out to Manly, now- they need to apologize for ever blocking him from winning the nomination in Nanaimo-Ladysmith and agree to allow him onto the shortlist there this time- it's been clear the whole time that no good ever came to the NDP from blocking him and that the party can only gain from letting him back in if he wants back in AND from accepting his views on the Israel/Palestine issue as legitimate.

Thu, 2021-06-17 20:29

(Reply to #271) #272

robbie_dee

Ken Burch wrote:

One thing is now clear...the NDP needs to reach out to Manly, now- they need to apologize for ever blocking him from winning the nomination in Nanaimo-Ladysmith and agree to allow him onto the shortlist there this time- it's been clear the whole time that no good ever came to the NDP from blocking him and that the party can only gain from letting him back in if he wants back in AND from accepting his views on the Israel/Palestine issue as legitimate.

The NDP has already nominated a candidate in Nanaimo Ladysmith for the next federal election: Lisa Marie Barron.

Thu, 2021-06-24 17:54

#273

Pondering

The NDP is far far far, and I mean far, better than the Liberals, but they still aren't anywhere close to ecosocialist. They are still basically accepting of the neoliberal framework of free trade deals. They want to nibble around the edges. In all fairness that is probably as radical as Canadians are willing to go at the present so electorally it makes sense to temper policy to what Canadians might be pursuaded to support.

Having said that the ongoing climate catastrophe is growing every year and can be laid squarely at the feet of government and industry. The time is ripe for the rise of a party that will be able to say "I told you so and now I am telling you this".

Canada can remain spoiled and comfortable if we dramatically cut our military budget and transform our interpretation of what it means for a country to be secure. I think we are the wealthiest country on earth in natural resources and educated healthy peaceful population potential. We have everything we need to be wildly successful.

I am a Lascaris ecosocialist. If he takes over the Green Party Leadership all hell with break loose in the media and it will likely harm as much as or more than help the Green Party vote at first.

But imagine having an actual Green ecosocialist party in Canada with a national presence. Would that not inspire you to greater action? It is within reach. Lascaris lost by only 2000 votes. There is sure to be another election this year.

I am going to do my best to promote membership in the Green Party to be certain people will be able to vote for Lascaris in the next leadership election.

Tue, 2021-06-29 11:08

#274

Pondering

Looks like Annamie Paul's lawyers put pressure on the party.

https://morns.ca/green-party-leader-says-federal-council-is-no-longer-as...

The leader of the federal Green Party says she no longer has to follow through on an order of her party’s federal council that directed her to repudiate an aide who criticized members of caucus.

Annamie Paul said in an interview Monday that the party’s federal council had decided not to pursue the order. However, she declined to provide any details....

Neither Elizabeth May nor Paul Manly – the party’s two current MPs – have endorsed Ms. Paul’s leadership, which she won eight months ago.

It isn't going to work. There will be a leadership review a few months after the election whether she likes it or not. This time she won't have May's backing. I suspect she doesn't care. "Green Party Leader" is for her resume at this point.

Tue, 2021-06-29 16:25

(Reply to #274) #275

Ken Burch

Pondering wrote:

Looks like Annamie Paul's lawyers put pressure on the party.

https://morns.ca/green-party-leader-says-federal-council-is-no-longer-as...

The leader of the federal Green Party says she no longer has to follow through on an order of her party’s federal council that directed her to repudiate an aide who criticized members of caucus.

Annamie Paul said in an interview Monday that the party’s federal council had decided not to pursue the order. However, she declined to provide any details....

Neither Elizabeth May nor Paul Manly – the party’s two current MPs – have endorsed Ms. Paul’s leadership, which she won eight months ago.

It isn't going to work. There will be a leadership review a few months after the election whether she likes it or not. This time she won't have May's backing. I suspect she doesn't care. "Green Party Leader" is for her resume at this point.

Let's face it...the ONLY reason May backed Paul for the leadership in the first place was to stop Dmitri Lascaris. Now that he has been stopped- he may not be able to stand for the leadership again- she will be discarded. we could well see May re-impose herself as leader.

Tue, 2021-06-29 16:25

(Reply to #275) #276

Ken Burch

Pondering wrote:

Looks like Annamie Paul's lawyers put pressure on the party.

https://morns.ca/green-party-leader-says-federal-council-is-no-longer-as...

The leader of the federal Green Party says she no longer has to follow through on an order of her party’s federal council that directed her to repudiate an aide who criticized members of caucus.

Annamie Paul said in an interview Monday that the party’s federal council had decided not to pursue the order. However, she declined to provide any details....

Neither Elizabeth May nor Paul Manly – the party’s two current MPs – have endorsed Ms. Paul’s leadership, which she won eight months ago.

It isn't going to work. There will be a leadership review a few months after the election whether she likes it or not. This time she won't have May's backing. I suspect she doesn't care. "Green Party Leader" is for her resume at this point.

Tue, 2021-06-29 17:24

#277

Pondering

I haven't heard of any Green Party rules that a candidate can't run a second time. The constitution just says the person must be in good standing in the party and have a hundred nominations. The leadership tried and failed to prevent Lascaris and Haddad from running.

Within six months of a Federal General Election, unless the leader becomes prime minister, a Leadership Review, where all Members in good standing may vote, shall be held. The date of the Leadership Review vote will be set by Federal Council and may coincide with a General Meeting. The Leader's term shall end if Members in good standing do not pass a resolution endorsing the Leader by at least 60%.

She doesn't have May or Manly's support this time around. The party is likely going to lose progressive support to the NDP this election.

Rather than voting Liberal to stop the Conservatives, people may vote NDP to prevent a Liberal majority. It could happen.

Tue, 2021-06-29 17:37

(Reply to #277) #278

Ken Burch

Pondering wrote:

I haven't heard of any Green Party rules that a candidate can't run a second time. The constitution just says the person must be in good standing in the party and have a hundred nominations. The leadership tried and failed to prevent Lascaris and Haddad from running.

Within six months of a Federal General Election, unless the leader becomes prime minister, a Leadership Review, where all Members in good standing may vote, shall be held. The date of the Leadership Review vote will be set by Federal Council and may coincide with a General Meeting. The Leader's term shall end if Members in good standing do not pass a resolution endorsing the Leader by at least 60%.

She doesn't have May or Manly's support this time around. The party is likely going to lose progressive support to the NDP this election.

Rather than voting Liberal to stop the Conservatives, people may vote NDP to prevent a Liberal majority. It could happen.

I realize that Lascaris COULD stand for the leadership again- he'll have trouble raising the funds compared to last time and the forces and factions within the GPC that were obsessed with stopping him last time are still in place.

My point was that, if there is a vote for a leadership review, May may be able to work behind the scenes to rig the vote and restore the sort of dictatorial control she had held as leader. Remember, Paul is only the leader because May's people were in control of the vote-counting process- it is incredibly suspicious that Lascaris was ahead in the 4th through 7th rounds of the count and then only fell behind, by a narrow margin, on the 6th. And remember how Paul was the ONLY major candidate for the leadership race who didn't back a clear break from May's constricting, defeatist centrism, that she was the ONLY candidate who followed May's lead and refused to answer any foreign policy questions at all, and that that was the candidate who just happened to win.

Clearly, that '20 contest was rigged to prevent any real change- why should we not assume that May won't rig the next leadership contest to continue to prevent it? She has made it clear that she would rather see the GPC remain an irrelevant rump party than allow it to offer any policies that would enable it to connect with the voters-and current non-voters- it needs to connect with if it is to make any real significant electoral breakthrough.

Tue, 2021-06-29 18:16

#279

contrarianna

I suspect May regrets her machinations shilling for Paul, and the resultant destruction of the Green Party.
May would be also be a target of the Paul/Zatzman "antisemetic" smearfest for her parliamentary comment:

Canada must speak out clearly to defend the Palestinian people
May 13, 2021

Mr. Speaker, the increasing crisis in the Middle East is a danger to the region and beyond. We are hobbled when we limit our response to “both sides must de-escalate”. Yes, they must, but true peace will never be achieved if we keep ignoring that one side is the occupier, the other is occupied.

This current crisis was provoked by actions of the Netanyahu government and other extreme elements within settler groups. Can Canada speak out clearly to defend the Palestinian people against illegal annexation, illegal settlements and illegal forced evictions?

https://elizabethmaymp.ca/canada-must-speak-out-clearly-to-defend-the-pa...

Wed, 2021-06-30 10:56

#280

Pondering

As contrarianna point out, May handpicked Paul and now Paul has proven to be a massive failure. It was not that surprising that Lascaris led for a long time before finally losing to Paul. The vote was very close and Paul was convincingly progressive of a lot of issues. She has a strong background. Kropotkin expressed dislike for her which alerted me to look more closely.

I don't see Lascaris having any trouble at all raising enough money for another run. When I used the word "coup" I wasn't joking. If ecosocialists win it is a coup because it will be because ecosocialists joined the party enmasse specifically to overthrow the right wing leadership.

May tried to prevent it with Paul who does have a progressive "face". It would have worked too if it were not for her aide and her refusal to denounce his comments. No wonder May is furious. She made a really bad mistake. Paul has no loyalty to the Green Party. It is a career vehicle for her. She doesn't care if she loses the next leadership review.

Now May is screwed. She won't be able to promote anyone else the way she did Paul. The review is six months after the election then there would be a delay for the next leadership vote which I assume will again be online. I doubt all 9 contenders for the leadership will try again. Meryam Haddad will likely try again along with Lascaris.

Courtney Howard, a doctor from the north, finished third place so it was her voters who put Paul in front by only 2 k votes, and that was with May campaigning for her.

If Lascaris wins it will not be because he converted Green Party members. It will be because he and Haddad convince enough ecosocialists to join the party and vote for him. That's what makes it a coop. It's a hostile takeover.

Ecosocialists have an excellent shot at taking over the party if they want it.

Wed, 2021-06-30 16:03

(Reply to #280) #281

kropotkin1951

Pondering wrote:

Ecosocialists have an excellent shot at taking over the party if they want it.

Seems to me at this point this horse has as much change of winning an election as a Claim Stake horse has of wining the Queen's Plate.

Wed, 2021-06-30 19:08

(Reply to #281) #282

bekayne

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Ecosocialists have an excellent shot at taking over the party if they want it.

Seems to me at this point this horse has as much change of winning an election as a Claim Stake horse has of wining the Queen's Plate.

Is that a hot tip?

Wed, 2021-06-30 19:11

#283

Ken Burch

So, Pondering...do you envision Paul switching to the Liberals? I can imagine her doing that, just to stick it to the GPC if there's even a sizable vote against her leadership, and I can picture Justin guaranteeing her the Liberal nomination in Toronto Centre- giving a Senate seat to Marci Ien to get her out of the way- in exchange for doing that particular dirty deed.

It's entirely possible Justin would make her a special Middle East envoy until the election.

As a person with no loyalty to anything but her own sizeable ego, you'd have to think Paul is at least considering it.

Wed, 2021-06-30 20:55

#284

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

OMG Ken, that is a horrible but plausible thought. Damn, I hope it doesn't happen for a number of reasons. But seriously, is Paul that freaking calculating and without any strong convictions? The Liberals on the other hand are always opportunists and sadly they would definitely like a fresh replacement for Irwin Cotler on their team. (Is that too over the top?)

Wed, 2021-06-30 21:08

(Reply to #284) #285

Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Ecosocialists have an excellent shot at taking over the party if they want it.

Seems to me at this point this horse has as much change of winning an election as a Claim Stake horse has of wining the Queen's Plate.

If you are referring to taking over the party, they were only 2K votes short. There is likely a year before the next leadership run. I'd say Lascaris has an excellent shot at taking the leadership. If you mean winning a federal election, not in the foreseeable future but could be a lot closer than we think. It won't be income inequality, even after Occupy that tips the balance. I'm not saying it absolutely will happen, but the weather is going to get worse, much worse, over the next five years. Places on Earth will become un-inhabitable increasing the flow of refugees, even though climate change isn't yet acknowledged as a cause. Whether we acknowledge them or not they will have no choice but to try. There will be more invasive species and more die off of vegetation that can no longer survive. There will be more pandemics, droughts, famines and fires, all worse than the preceding ones. Over the next 5 to 10 years we will continue breaking records. We are going to see weather events never before seen on Earth.

I am hopeful that the entire establishment from politicians to corporate executives to mainstream media will be blamed.

Wed, 2021-06-30 21:25

#286

Pondering

The Liberals wouldn't touch her with a ten foot pole. She's toxic. It seems her announcement was premature.

https://www.thestar.com/politics/2021/06/30/annamie-paul-to-face-non-con...

Liana Cusmano, president of the party’s federal council, told grassroots members in a virtual town hall Wednesday that party brass would hold a vote on July 20 that could result in Paul’s ouster.

The vote requires backing from three-quarters of the 13-member governing body in order to proceed to a party-wide vote the following month at a general meeting, where an ultimate judgment on Paul’s leadership could be rendered by the rank and file.....

n a statement obtained by The Canadian Press, Cusmano said Paul has failed to live up to the ultimatum or to “meet her obligations as leader,” citing Green MP Jenica Atwin’s defection to the Liberals earlier this month.

In a statement sent Wednesday evening, Paul said Cusmano did not have the authority to convene a town hall or speak on behalf of the entire federal council. She called Cusmano’s actions “unprecedented” in the history of the Green Party of Canada.

“I have said before that when people like me achieve positions of senior authority, all of a sudden the rules change and the goalposts are moved,” Paul said in the statement.

She said she would not let the “small group of rogue councillors” distract her from the work she was chosen to do as leader....

“We do not take this matter or the decision to hold this vote lightly. But we know this: the Green party deserves strong, thoughtful and action-oriented leadership that aligns with the values and policies of the party,” Cusmano said at the Zoom town hall.

“Moreover, we believe a leader unites instead of divides. All this will be tested on July 20.”

Cusmano also said the party has seen “reduced donations and withdrawals of potential candidates” for the next federal election under Paul’s tenure....

In a statement Wednesday, Zatzman called Cusmano’s move to hold a non-confidence vote “autocratic” and “truly despicable.”

“The original motion and this statement is but further evidence of an organization whose leadership fosters a culture of systemic antisemitism and discrimination,” he said. “Annamie was elected by a majority of party members to change this, and I have faith that she will.”

Paul did not run on that platform.

Wed, 2021-06-30 23:05

#287

cco

The Liberals took Jenica Atwin. No, Paul would cross to the Conservatives, and in doing so say she was returning to the roots Elizabeth May betrayed.

Wed, 2021-06-30 23:56

(Reply to #287) #288

kropotkin1951

cco wrote:
The Liberals took Jenica Atwin. No, Paul would cross to the Conservatives, and in doing so say she was returning to the roots Elizabeth May betrayed.

You can't cross if you can't get elected. Although she might switch parties I think she stands a good chance of losing in Toronto if she ran for the Liberals against a strong NDP candidate.

Thu, 2021-07-01 03:40

(Reply to #288) #289

Ken Burch

robbie_dee wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

One thing is now clear...the NDP needs to reach out to Manly, now- they need to apologize for ever blocking him from winning the nomination in Nanaimo-Ladysmith and agree to allow him onto the shortlist there this time- it's been clear the whole time that no good ever came to the NDP from blocking him and that the party can only gain from letting him back in if he wants back in AND from accepting his views on the Israel/Palestine issue as legitimate.

The NDP has already nominated a candidate in Nanaimo Ladysmith for the next federal election: Lisa Marie Barron.

Ok...then they need to make clear that if he wishes to seek an NDP nomination in B.C. for the next election, they won't block him. That's not asking too much, especially since no good came to them of blocking him in Nanaimo-Ladysmith.

Thu, 2021-07-01 08:56

(Reply to #289) #290

josh

Pondering wrote:

The Liberals wouldn't touch her with a ten foot pole. She's toxic. It seems her announcement was premature.

https://www.thestar.com/politics/2021/06/30/annamie-paul-to-face-non-con...

Liana Cusmano, president of the party’s federal council, told grassroots members in a virtual town hall Wednesday that party brass would hold a vote on July 20 that could result in Paul’s ouster.

The vote requires backing from three-quarters of the 13-member governing body in order to proceed to a party-wide vote the following month at a general meeting, where an ultimate judgment on Paul’s leadership could be rendered by the rank and file.....

n a statement obtained by The Canadian Press, Cusmano said Paul has failed to live up to the ultimatum or to “meet her obligations as leader,” citing Green MP Jenica Atwin’s defection to the Liberals earlier this month.

In a statement sent Wednesday evening, Paul said Cusmano did not have the authority to convene a town hall or speak on behalf of the entire federal council. She called Cusmano’s actions “unprecedented” in the history of the Green Party of Canada.

“I have said before that when people like me achieve positions of senior authority, all of a sudden the rules change and the goalposts are moved,” Paul said in the statement.

She said she would not let the “small group of rogue councillors” distract her from the work she was chosen to do as leader....

“We do not take this matter or the decision to hold this vote lightly. But we know this: the Green party deserves strong, thoughtful and action-oriented leadership that aligns with the values and policies of the party,” Cusmano said at the Zoom town hall.

“Moreover, we believe a leader unites instead of divides. All this will be tested on July 20.”

Cusmano also said the party has seen “reduced donations and withdrawals of potential candidates” for the next federal election under Paul’s tenure....

In a statement Wednesday, Zatzman called Cusmano’s move to hold a non-confidence vote “autocratic” and “truly despicable.”

“The original motion and this statement is but further evidence of an organization whose leadership fosters a culture of systemic antisemitism and discrimination,” he said. “Annamie was elected by a majority of party members to change this, and I have faith that she will.”

Paul did not run on that platform.

Wow. Two card players par excellence.

Thu, 2021-07-01 10:36

#291

robbie_dee

I suspect that Manly is toast now. Elizabeth May could hang onto her seat, particularly if the Green Party Council turfs Paul and May ends up as the "interim Leader" who takes the Party into a fall election. But the Party has no growth prospects. Best bet is to try to find their next leader from the provincial party ranks and for May to ultimately stand aside in Saanich-Gulf Islands for that person. Try to rebuild from there.

Thu, 2021-07-01 11:37

#292

cco

There's no reason not to believe Zatzman that he and Paul will work to defeat the entire Green caucus. Ensuring May's defeat is the only way for her to hang on as leader after the next election.

Thu, 2021-07-01 12:17

(Reply to #292) #293

Michael Moriarity

cco wrote:
There's no reason not to believe Zatzman that he and Paul will work to defeat the entire Green caucus. Ensuring May's defeat is the only way for her to hang on as leader after the next election.

LOL. What a bizarre idea. Hang on to the leadership of a political party by ensuring that its tiny number of MPs are all defeated at the general election. Stop, you're killing me. This Zatzman is hilarious, he should be on SNL. I'd say he's much funnier than Elon Musk.

Thu, 2021-07-01 13:49

(Reply to #293) #294

kropotkin1951

Ken Burch wrote:

robbie_dee wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

One thing is now clear...the NDP needs to reach out to Manly, now- they need to apologize for ever blocking him from winning the nomination in Nanaimo-Ladysmith and agree to allow him onto the shortlist there this time- it's been clear the whole time that no good ever came to the NDP from blocking him and that the party can only gain from letting him back in if he wants back in AND from accepting his views on the Israel/Palestine issue as legitimate.

The NDP has already nominated a candidate in Nanaimo Ladysmith for the next federal election: Lisa Marie Barron.

Ok...then they need to make clear that if he wishes to seek an NDP nomination in B.C. for the next election, they won't block him. That's not asking too much, especially since no good came to them of blocking him in Nanaimo-Ladysmith.

The NDP on Vancouver Island is in pre-election mode. They have already done the nominations and except for his and May's riding they are all incumbent NDP MP's so they were basically pro forma. None of them are likely to step aside nor should they. I am not sure how he could parachute into another riding in BC when he is an Island politician.

Thu, 2021-07-01 13:51

#295

kropotkin1951

But if you could convince him to run against May in Saanich maybe that could be made to work.

Thu, 2021-07-01 17:32

#296

contrarianna

I've voted for May several times in my riding and, despite her failings, I may do it again unless the internal coup to make the Green Party the Zionist Party is consolidated. If Paul/Zatzaman (I use the co-joined names since she has not repudiated anything her appointed advisor has said, and defiantly claims she doesn't need to, including his working to defeat Green candidates he smears as antisemitic).

It is hardly amounts to a step forward to vote for an NDP candidate who will not challenge the leadership of Singh who appears to have no moral center and who rarely deviates substantively from the neoliberal Liberal Party
The Green Party, no left wing party, was to left of the Singh's NDP on many issues--as are many of the NDP rank and file.

Compare, for example, May's in House statement on Palestine (I cite above) with that of Singh and the NDP braintrust which is to the right of most of its voting members in supporting Israel's criminality:

April 11, 2021 · 16:09
NDP votes for Palestine

On Saturday New Democratic Party members delivered a victory for Palestinian rights and a blow to the Israel lobby in Canada.

Over 80% of convention delegates voted for a resolution calling for “Ending all trade and economic cooperation with illegal settlements in Israel-Palestine” and “Suspending the bilateral trade of all arms and related materials with the State of Israel until Palestinian rights are upheld.”...
....
Jagmeet Singh was asked on CBC’s The House about resolutions submitted to the NDP convention regarding “Canada’s relationship to Israel and the Palestinian territory”. Instead of responding to the question, he mentioned “anti-Semitism” four times. Asked again about “resolutions that in a sense condemn Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians”, Singh again failed to mention Palestine or Palestinians. Instead, he talked about “increased hate crimes also against people of the Jewish faith”....

https://yvesengler.com/2021/04/11/ndp-votes-for-palestine/

Thu, 2021-07-01 18:34

(Reply to #296) #297

Ken Burch

kropotkin1951 wrote:

But if you could convince him to run against May in Saanich maybe that could be made to work.

That would be brilliant...and if Paul went out their to campaign for May against Manly in a contest like that, she would probably guarantee Manly's election as an NDP candidate...which would give Paul the revenge she seems to want AND blast the party out from under her at the same time.

Thu, 2021-07-01 18:37

#298

kropotkin1951

I love all the ins and outs but for me the reality is I have a sitting NDP MP who does a great job on everything except foreign policy. There is no one better to vote for so I will vote for him again.

Thu, 2021-07-01 19:12

(Reply to #298) #299

Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I love all the ins and outs but for me the reality is I have a sitting NDP MP who does a great job on everything except foreign policy. There is no one better to vote for so I will vote for him again.

You can vote for him and join the Green Party to votes for an ecosocialist leader. Given what we are facing, the survival of the planet, I think it can be justified. I'm certainly not voting Green until Lascaris succeeds.

Thu, 2021-07-01 20:47

(Reply to #299) #300

melovesproles

Pondering wrote:

The Liberals wouldn't touch her with a ten foot pole. She's toxic. It seems her announcement was premature.

https://www.thestar.com/politics/2021/06/30/annamie-paul-to-face-non-con...

Liana Cusmano, president of the party’s federal council, told grassroots members in a virtual town hall Wednesday that party brass would hold a vote on July 20 that could result in Paul’s ouster.

The vote requires backing from three-quarters of the 13-member governing body in order to proceed to a party-wide vote the following month at a general meeting, where an ultimate judgment on Paul’s leadership could be rendered by the rank and file.....

n a statement obtained by The Canadian Press, Cusmano said Paul has failed to live up to the ultimatum or to “meet her obligations as leader,” citing Green MP Jenica Atwin’s defection to the Liberals earlier this month.

In a statement sent Wednesday evening, Paul said Cusmano did not have the authority to convene a town hall or speak on behalf of the entire federal council. She called Cusmano’s actions “unprecedented” in the history of the Green Party of Canada.

“I have said before that when people like me achieve positions of senior authority, all of a sudden the rules change and the goalposts are moved,” Paul said in the statement.

She said she would not let the “small group of rogue councillors” distract her from the work she was chosen to do as leader....

“We do not take this matter or the decision to hold this vote lightly. But we know this: the Green party deserves strong, thoughtful and action-oriented leadership that aligns with the values and policies of the party,” Cusmano said at the Zoom town hall.

“Moreover, we believe a leader unites instead of divides. All this will be tested on July 20.”

Cusmano also said the party has seen “reduced donations and withdrawals of potential candidates” for the next federal election under Paul’s tenure....

In a statement Wednesday, Zatzman called Cusmano’s move to hold a non-confidence vote “autocratic” and “truly despicable.”

“The original motion and this statement is but further evidence of an organization whose leadership fosters a culture of systemic antisemitism and discrimination,” he said. “Annamie was elected by a majority of party members to change this, and I have faith that she will.”

Paul did not run on that platform.

She didn't, but there were a lot of red flags in the leadership race that made this far from surprising. Anytime she was asked anything to do with her foreign policy positions or goals she refused to even answer, she attacked one of the other candidates for using the word 'coup' to talk about Bolivia, she lied flat out about the party's position on BDS etc.

What I find most confusing about all of this is that May is suddenly surprised by who Paul is. If these red flags were obvious to casual observers of the leadership race, then how could May not be better informed? Wouldn't she know Zatzman and the people Paul was surrounding herself with?

Did May misread Paul or misread the party's reaction to a Paul leadership?

Fri, 2021-07-02 11:24

#301

robbie_dee

I have trouble imagining Paul Manly abandoning the riding he fought so hard to win just to launch a kamikaze campaign on the NDP's behalf against Elizabeth May. It's certainly not like he owes it to the NDP. I also think people assume far too much repentance on the part of the NDP in terms of their willingness to take him back (except perhaps for totally cynical motivations like sticking it to May). I'm sure the people in charge today probably wouldn't have made the same mistake that Mulcair's team did in pushing someone like Manly out, but I doubt they feel like they owe it to make it up to him, either. Politics is a team sport and Manly just isn't on the team any more.

I suspect that if the Green Party were to totally break up, and Manly still wanted to be in Parliament regardless, he would just run as an independent. But I am still dumbfounded that with B.C. burning due largely to the impact of uncontrolled climate change, the Green Party actually appears ready to crack up over a policy dispute that is only tangentially connected to the environment at best and is centered in another country that is literally halfway around the world from Canada. What a farce.

Green Party coup

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