The Uyghur situation

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Pondering wrote:

So only the Hans women were abused. That isn't better. 

The one child policy was a very authoritarian and repressive policy. That was not genocide but population control. The Uyghur's like all 52 ethnic minorities were spared the worst effects of it. India is set to overtake China's population and a large percentage of them are living in extreme poverty. The average Chinese person lives ten years longer than the average Indian. China with its polices has eliminated extreme poverty and is looking at peaking in population before 2025 while India is still on an upwards trajectory. Is it better to have no population control and starving masses or population control with strict measures that bring prosperity and long life to the people who are born?

It doesn't excuse abuse. I'm surprised at you. It has been shown that simply offering women birth control and offering a better future for the children they do have works remarkably well. Women have many children on farms because families need workers to survive. Now their population is aging which will lead to a shortage of workers to support children, the elderly and the infirm. Children are necessary. Will they start forcing or coercing women into having more children? No thanks. As a woman, I'll take Canada or even the US over that. 

If they started castrating men to keep them docile I bet they would become the evil empire very quickly. It makes sense to do as there are an excess of young men given that girls were killed because if you could only have one child it had to be a boy. 

But even in China, the patriarchy reigns. Even here on this board what happens to women, 50% of the population, is a side issue justifiable because it happened at the same time as lifting people out of poverty. 

I definitely would not be in favor of the Canadian government being able to sterilize women against their will. That would certainly reduce poverty among indigenous peoples. 

It is our exported pollution and rampant consumption of disposible goods that has lifted China out of poverty and condemned many North Americans to low-wage service jobs. Mass industrialization on the backs of workers both in China and here. Yay China.

There is no such thing as good oligarchs. China has them too.  China shouldn't be demonized but it shouldn't be worshipped either.

Pondering wrote:

It doesn't excuse abuse. I'm surprised at you. It has been shown that simply offering women birth control and offering a better future for the children they do have works remarkably well.

...

I definitely would not be in favor of the Canadian government being able to sterilize women against their will. That would certainly reduce poverty among indigenous peoples. 

I have never said I supported the one child policy. I was merely pointing out that it is ridiculous to claim genocide against ethnic minorities is the intent of the government when the most repressive population controls were not applied to them. However I also do not support the fundamentalist in most countries like India who restrict their women's right to access birth control because of religious prohibitions. In rural Xinjiang the government has provided access to birth control so those women have a choice now and are not dominated by the local religious zealots.

There is zero evidence of forced sterilization in China. That is what the reports above are showing including the statistical analysis in the post above.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Pondering wrote:

It doesn't excuse abuse. I'm surprised at you. It has been shown that simply offering women birth control and offering a better future for the children they do have works remarkably well.

...

I definitely would not be in favor of the Canadian government being able to sterilize women against their will. That would certainly reduce poverty among indigenous peoples. 

I have never said I supported the one child policy. I was merely pointing out that it is ridiculous to claim genocide against ethnic minorities is the intent of the government when the most repressive population controls were not applied to them. However I also do not support the fundamentalist in most countries like India who restrict their women's right to access birth control because of religious prohibitions. In rural Xinjiang the government has provided access to birth control so those women have a choice now and are not dominated by the local religious zealots.

There is zero evidence of forced sterilization in China. That is what the reports above are showing including the statistical analysis in the post above.

There are certainly missing baby girls. I think rather than taking the approach that Canada shouldn't be throwing stones I prefer the opposite approach. There is good reason to throw stones at China, Canada, the US, the UK, Russia and every other country I can think of. 

China is going to be demonized for economic reasons. I understand countering that but the seeming insistence that China is superior to the western world in every way isn't credible and makes defence of China less credible. 

To some extent I think it isn't going to matter. Trump supporters believe in Trump because they want to. They are afraid that white people will become a minority, which they will. China does have the potential to be the next economic superpower and that is scary. For that reason any excuse will be a good excuse to rein them in. 

"...Beaten for speaking their language, forced into another religion, washed because they were 'dirty'? We had no option, says chief of Covessess First Nation. The government enforced it."

https://twitter.com/LiuXininBeijing/status/1419663643432476674

Foster Care is Modern Day Residential School System

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/foster-care-is-modern-day-residential-s...

Indigenous Women Still Forced, Coerced into Sterilization

https://globalnews.ca/news/792048/indigenous-women-sterilization-senate-...

China's Uyghur 'genocide' remains unproven and doubtful. Canada's genocide is real, the world now knows it and wonders why Canadians didn't/don't stop it. The obvious conclusion is unfortunately, probably correct.

Are possible crimes against humanity "political?"

Are UN reports critical of Western countries like the U.S., and Canada also “political?”

Is the U.N. spreading lies about China?

JKR wrote:

Is the U.N. spreading lies about China?

Have you read the report yet? I would not call it spreading lies however the media reports are cherry picking the worst parts and the report itself draws upon some dicey evidential bases. However it is clear that the Chinese government affected the lives of tens of thousands of citizens in an effort to stop actual terrorism taking place in the XUAR and that abuses happened.

China forces organ harvesting on prisoners. Keep on supporting them lol

Here's some reading for you.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-deta...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-deta...

NBC News is a left-center news agency rated as having HIGH factual reporting by Media Fact Check website.

Krop, these right wing fools think there is a problem with "woke" multinationals, like Disney and Nike. No use debating such ignoramuses.

Michael Moriarity wrote:

Krop, these right wing fools think there is a problem with "woke" multinationals, like Disney and Nike. No use debating such ignoramuses.

Huh?

kropotkin1951 wrote:

You should have a look around Media Bias fact check.

I have and think it is one of the most effective propaganda tools on the net. People look at and think it is unbiased so believe it when it clearly is not. The idea that a US MSM newsroom is left of center is an absurd rewriting of the definitions of left and center. This is the same kind of tripe that has people claiming Biden is left of center and Trudeau is a socialist. Very sophisticated serving of American bias.

What site do you use to check sources?

Leftist publications seem more editorial than factual although they are that too. They don't report the news as much as they comment on top issues. 

Checking multiple is important but with an eye to extracting factual information. There are no mainstream leftist sources big enough to report daily news. I find it helps to use sources from different countries. Russian and Chinese news is rubbish other than to find out what the state is telling the people. 

I check BBC, Guardian, Al Jazeera and I like WION news on youtube to get a different perspective but these are still mainstream sites. 

The alternative sites mentioned are more commentary than news. I find the quality of articles varies widely but they are easy to judge in the first paragraph and you get to know the columnists so you know who to read.

Excellent example. It is chock full of weasel words.

Paladin1 wrote:

<p>From Aljazzera

<p><a href="https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/6/holdchinesemedicskilleddeath-row...">Chinese medics killed death row inmates by taking hearts: Report</a></p>

Hundreds of Chinese surgeons and medical personnel have been accused of killing death row prisoners by removing their hearts for transplant even before the inmates had been officially declared dead, in a new academic paper.

International guidelines on the ethics surrounding organ transplants state that organ removal must not cause the death of the donor, but the new research from the Australian National University published this week in the American Journal of Transplantation suggests Chinese surgeons might have done just that.

A forensic review of 2,838 reports in Chinese scientific journals revealed 71 cases where surgeons might have removed a patients’ heart or lungs before a “legitimate determination of brain death”. Brain death is typically defined as a medical state where a patient cannot survive without a ventilator....

They came to this conclusion through reading medical journals. 

The findings, according to study co-author and PhD researcher Matthew Robertson, were that Chinese surgeons might have carried out a final coup de grâce in an execution process that began in front of a firing squad or through lethal injection. Even if the prisoner survived that trauma, removing vital organs would cause certain death.

“We found that the physicians became the executioners on behalf of the state, and that the method of execution was heart removal,” Robertson said in a statement......

That's a pretty strong statement made from reading medical journals written in a different language. It even acknowledges it happened after either a lethal injection or firing squad. It's creepy but dying by organ removal rather than shooting the organ until it fails and I die doesn't make a lot of difference. Either way I am dead. 

Researchers originally began their study with a data set of 124,770 publications from 1951 to 2020, but whittled cases down to 2,838 reports after filtering for heart and lung transplants. They finished their research by manually reviewing a total of 310 papers. Cases were flagged by researchers if they contained a “problematic brain death declaration,” where doctors did not check whether a patient could survive on a ventilator, or patients were only partially ventilated with a mask and did not have a tube inserted into the throat.

They had been executed. Why would they be on a ventilator to keep them breathing?  I have read some extremely gruesome stories of executions in the US. 

Researchers say these criteria suggest the patient’s body was kept alive for the purpose of organ procurement, which can be “highly profitable” for doctors and hospitals...

We do that in Canada and the US for voluntary organ donors. 

The tribunal further concluded that “forced organ harvesting has been committed for years throughout China on a significant scale” and that most organs probably came from prisoners and practitioners of the banned Falun Gong religious movement.

It's all probably and might be based on western standards and ethics. 91% of Chinese people are atheists. In my opinion religions are superstitions that have caused many wars and the suffering of anyone who doesn't fall into step. The Freedom Convoy was religiously driven. 

"Forced" organ donations suggest there was some resistance. They were either dead or unconscious and on the verge of it. Western society has bestowed post humous right. The dead have no preferences. 

I can imagine that authorities don't want to allow religion to get a foothold in China. I am not saying they are "right" or "justified" to target Falun Gong but freedom of religion is a western concept. Strong arguments can be made that they are anti-social and generate if not promote violence.

I don't believe in God or that people have a soul. In my view we are just really smart  mammals. When we die. We are meat. Killing a human is no more inherently morally wrong than killing any animal. It isn't more wrong because we have a bigger brain. Our laws are literally to keep social peace so we don't kill each other and to protect wealth. We have decided it is morally right for some people to have enough resources to go to space while others lack the resources to sustain life. We let refugees drown to death trying to reach us. The list goes on. 

Religion has caused many wars and been and still is being used to subjegate women to the detriment of society. China has a pretty good argument for trying to prevent religion from taking a foothold in China. It isn't just prejudice. Kropotkin has pointed out the violent or terroristic actions of the Falun Gong outside of China. While that doesn't implicate those living in China it does implicate the religion as a cause of violence. 

So in conclusion, there has been no suggestion that people are being arrested and condemned to death for the purposes of organ harvesting. Rather, the claims are:

1) organs are harvested from dead former prisoners without prior consent. That China doesn't give prisoners rights over their bodies past death isn't inherently wrong. You're dead, destined to be burnt or eaten by maggots, not watched from heaven. 

2) It is possible that 71 out of thousands might not have been technically brain dead because they weren't on ventilators. 

I am quite struck by the fact that there were journal articles that had recorded thousands of prisoner organ donations to the smallest detail. 

If we want to talk morality, is it moral to burn or bury organs that would save thousands of lives, many of them children? If someone commits murder so is sentenced to death isn't it a form of restitution that people live who would have otherwise died?

They are 91% atheist. Their society is not rooted in Judeo Chrisian values nor Muslim. Their civilization is ancient. Confucius is known as the sage of sages so I'm guessing Chinese values are derived from sages rather than from religions. One more look at the numbers

data set of 124,770 publications from 1951 to 2020, that's 71 possible cases, not confirmed, over a period of 70 years. There are over a billion people in China. 

Pondering wrote:

Excellent example.

Thanks, I figured I'd use one of the places you go to for your source checking.

There are also accusations about China putting people on death row and killing them just to get access to their organs. People put on death row for small crimes or crimes of conscience.
https://chinatribunal.com/about/

And another
https://endtransplantabuse.org/the-killing-in-china-of-prisoners-of-cons...

David Matas is an international human rights lawyer.

See David Matas and David Kilgour, Bloody Harvest: The killing of Falun Gong for their organs

https://endtransplantabuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/BloodyHarvest....

So let's have a look at this report you cited:

https://endtransplantabuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/BloodyHarvest....

Under "methods" they spend a long time claiming neutrality which they obviously are not

Proof can be either inductive or deductive. Criminal investigations normally work deductively,stringing together individual pieces of evidence into a coherent whole. The limitations our investigation faced placed severe constraints in this deductive method. Some elements from which we could deduce what was happening were, nonetheless, available, in particular the investigator phone calls. We also used inductive reasoning, working backwards as well as forwards. If the allegations were not true, how would we know they were not true? If the allegations were true, what facts would be consistent with those allegations? What would explain the reality of the allegations, if the allegations were real? Answers to those sorts of questions helped us to form our conclusions.

 We also considered prevention. What are the safeguards that would prevent this sort of activity from happening? If precautions are in place, we could conclude that it is less likely that the activity is happening. If they are not in place, then the possibility that the activity is happening increases. Our conclusion is that there has been and continues today to be largescale organ seizures from unwilling Falun Gong practitioners. We have concluded that the government of China and its agencies in numerous parts of the country, in particular hospitals but also detention centres and ‘people’s courts’, since 1999 have put to death a large but unknown number of Falun Gong prisoners of conscience. Their vital organs, including kidneys, livers, corneas and hearts, were seized involuntarily for sale at high prices, sometimes to foreigners, who normally face long waits for voluntary donations of such organs in their home countries. Our conclusion comes not from any single item of evidence, but rather the piecing together of all the evidence we have considered. Each portion of the evidence we have considered is, in itself, verifiable and, in most cases, incontestable. Put together, they paint a damning whole picture. It is their combination that has convinced us.

In other words they don't have any proof they have a conspiracy theory. 

I'm willing to believe they execute people for crime we wouldn't execute people for. I'm willing to believe they use their organs without consent rather than throwing them out. 

What I'm not willing to believe is that they send word down the line that they are short on kidney's so please expedite the executions of the stock of Falun Gongs. 

Paladin1 wrote:

Pondering wrote:

I'm willing to believe they execute people for crime we wouldn't execute people for. I'm willing to believe they use their organs without consent rather than throwing them out. 

What I'm not willing to believe is that they send word down the line that they are short on kidney's so please expedite the executions of the stock of Falun Gongs. 

Do you believe uighurs are victims of forced sterilization?

I believe that all fifty some ethnic groups are "victims" of the Chinese attempts to limit population growth. Those groups have always had rules that were more lenient than the rules imposed on the Han majority but it still means that some women would have been "coerced" into practicing birth control. Not liking or agreeing with Chinese policies on population control is fine but painting it up as some sort of genocidal ethnic cleansing is ridiculous propaganda. In an astounding instance of serendipity all the "human rights" groups are based in 5Eyes countries and when traceable the funding always leads back to state run agencies.

In the meantime the Western media highlights the "concerns' and buries the facts behind accusations.

The UN Office of the Commission for Human Rights released a document this week that completely exonerates the leadership of the Chinese region of Xinjiang from accusations of genocide or use of slave labor. . This document, which is 121 pages long, explains clearly how a spate of deadly terrorist attacks triggered changes which have been remarkably successful. Extremist violence is gone, and the people of the area have been lifted out of poverty, with education, jobs, free healthcare which has raised their longevity to developed world standards. . Wait, you say. That’s not the summary you read in the media. . Really? . Well, here are the facts. The UNHCR released a PAIR of documents on August 31: a 46 page one from their office listing concerns and a 121-page one responding to concerns. . The mainstream media wrote fanciful articles purportedly based on the first . – and hid the second. . Why hide it? Well, the first is a summary of tired old sources which are mostly anonymous or recycled from western media. The second is from the actual working officials in Xinjiang, a place led by councils made up of ethnic minority people and Han Chinese people. . But here’s the twist. Both documents say there’s been no genocide in Xinjiang. That’s big news. If the media was fair, that would be the headline. . What about the concerns raised by the first document? Well, there are about 12 million Uyghur people in Xinjiang. But this quotes the tiny number of mostly anonymous people making horrendous allegations in the west, people who have been repeatedly tracked to western-funded groups like World Uyghur Congress. . To give one example, the footnotes lead to allegations by people such as a lady named Sautbay. Trustworthy? . Well, she told one interviewer that the terrible thing was that they were forced to eat pork! . And told another interviewer that the terrible thing was that they were forced to be vegetarian! . She told one interviewer that she was a camp detainee and another that she was a camp staff member. Her story changed so often that people on all sides realized it was some sort of political theatre. Well, you decide. . While you are thinking about that, here’s a picture of her with mate of hers. That’s Michael Pompeo, former director of the CIA. . Meanwhile, here’s something that the media wants you to forget. Just this summer, when this UN officer [image of Michele Bachelet] moved away from the demonization script, reporters denounced her work as terrible, marking her as someone who can never be trusted again. . Now, when they have something that they can use to get back to the demonisation project, her department’s work is totally trustworthy again! . You can’t make this stuff up! A little healthy skepticism is a good thing. Peace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aCx1G9wIfo&t=23s