University of Toronto Goes Gestapo on FORCED Vaccines

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Thu, 2021-09-09 17:36

Neocynic

University of Toronto Goes Gestapo on FORCED Vaccines

"you must be fully vaccinated by October 29, 2021..."

"If you do not follow this there are consequences to your personal life. ...

We will not bend in these rules. You will comply or you will be eliminated from the university community and you will be further ostracized from the greater community. Do what you are told."

The language is threatening and outrageous, a manifestation of our super-authoritarian times and the direction we are heading towards full-blown medical fascism. Read the official email:

From: Human Resources & Equity <[email protected]>

Subject: Requirement to be Vaccinated

Date: September 9, 2021 at 12:32:09 PM EDT

To: [email protected]

Date:

September 9, 2021

To:

University of Toronto employees

From:

Kelly Hannah-Moffat, Vice-President, People Strategy, Equity & Culture

Heather Boon, Vice-Provost, Faculty & Academic Life

Re:

Requirement to be Vaccinated

Further to the Fall Planning – Welcome to the Start of a New Academic Year message sent earlier today, we are writing to provide you with additional details regarding the new Joint Provostial and Human Resources Guideline on Vaccinations and the requirement for our community to be vaccinated. As an employee of the University, you are subject to and bound by the Guideline, and you should carefully review and familiarize yourself with it. If you do not follow this there are consequences to your personal life.

As an employee of the University,

you may be required to be able to attend and perform duties on University premises as required, even if some or all of your duties can be performed remotely. Accordingly, you must be fully vaccinated by October 29, 2021 (i.e. final dose no later than October 15, 2021).

Please upload proof of vaccination using the University’s UCheck system. If you have been identified as a participant in a high-risk activity (e.g., music instruction, athletics, etc) and have received instructions on how to upload your proof of vaccination via ServiceNow, please also upload your vaccine documents in UCheck.

Those seeking an exemption to the requirement to be fully vaccinated for medical or other protected human rights grounds can make a request through the University’s Vaccination Exemption Request Portal via the Enterprise Service Centre (ServiceNow). Please note that approval is not guaranteed. If your exemption is approved, you will be required to participate in the University’s rapid screening program, and must upload results twice per week. If your exemption request is not approved, you will be required to be fully vaccinated in order to work at the University.

As stated in the Guideline:

“…the University will educate the community about the benefits of being fully vaccinated against COVID-19. Consequences for a violation of this Vaccination Guideline will depend on the individual’s relationship with the University and the relevant circumstances but may include, in the case of:

· Employees: prohibition from attending University premises and discipline up to and including termination of employment for cause, in accordance with the applicable University policies and procedures, guidelines, employment agreement or memoranda of agreement or collective agreement, if any.” We will not bend in these rules. You will comply or you will be eliminated from the university community and you will be further ostracized from the greater community. Do what you are told.

...

For more information on COVID-19 vaccines, please visit https://www.utoronto.ca/utogether/vaccines.

Thu, 2021-09-09 17:45

Ken Burch

The Gestapo focused on killing people. Making sure people are vaccinated is the OPPOSITE of killing people and therefore the opposite of anything remotely related to the Gestapo.

Stop insulting the victims of Naziism by falsely associating that ideology and its methods with sensible public health measures.

There is no moral difference between trying to make sure everyone takes the Covid vaccine and trying to make sure everyone took the polio vaccine in 1952.

Shame on you.

Just plain shame on you.

Fri, 2021-09-10 10:35

Neocynic

Shame on you. You obviously missed the point out of dogmatic knee-jerk intolerant narrow-mindedness. You should educate yourself about the tactics of the Gestapo employed against political dissenters. When you threaten "You will comply or you will be eliminated", you are employing the same tactics used by the Gestapo, namely, fear and terror.

Speaking of Naziis and forced vaccinations, the Nuremberg Principle IV applies to the conduct of these UoT aparatchiks who violate specifically the NUREMBERG CODE (DIRECTIVES FOR HUMAN EXPERIMENTATION. Go educate yourself:–“Permissible Medical Experiments.” Trials of War Criminals before the Nuremberg Military Tribunals under Control Council Law No. 10. Nuremberg October 1946 – April 1949, Washington. U.S. Government Printing Office (n.d.), vol. 2., pp. 181-182).

Thu, 2021-09-09 18:21

Ken Burch

Refusing to vaccinate isn't political dissent- there isn't a political issue involved here. It's just public health- and there is nothing to debate on this.

The operative concept here is "your freedom ends at the tip of my nose". No one's "individual rights" include the right to expose others to contagion, which is what those who refuse to vaccinate are doing.

In a public health emergency, we all owe each other SOMETHING- in this case, basic human consideration and respect. Refusing to vaccinate is a display of disrespect to the entire human race, especially when coupled, as it very often is, with refusal to mask or socially distance.

Freedom is not the right to be a selfish, inconsiderate jerk. It does not include the right to blast Nordic Death Metal or the greatest hits of The Mom and Dads at full volume on your stereo at 3 am if you live in an apartment building; it does not include the right to viciously heckle the comic at a nightclub; it does not include the right to fly a Nazi flag when your neighbors are Jewish, or gay or Roma, or the Confederate Battle Flag if you live in a Black neighborhood, OR to knowingly expose everyone else at the school you attend to the Covid virus by refusing to vaccinate.

Thu, 2021-09-09 19:18

NorthReport

I can't believe we have a thread open devoted to this shit!

Thu, 2021-09-09 21:29

NDPP

The ethical minefield of COVID-19 vaccinations: Informed consent and the obligations of doctors

https://www.abc.net.au/religion/covid-19-vaccination-informed-consent-an...

"The doctrine of informed consent puts into effect respect for the patient's autonomy and their right to self-determination. Voluntariness requires that the patient's consent to treatment be free of coercion, duress or undue influence. This is an implicit consideration when it comes to vaccines..."

This may be helpful in considering the issue further. Despite what you or I may believe we know, it is hardly an open and shut case and should remain open to discussion with those who think otherwise.

Fri, 2021-09-10 02:34

NDPP

Rutgers student says he's being stopped from taking virtual classes because he's not vaccinated

https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1435417757395439617

"Student at Rutgers U has been banned from off-campus virtual classes because he did not take a Covid injection. Apparently the Covidian brain disease can be transmitted through online learning."

Fri, 2021-09-10 06:03

Left Turn

I'm 100% supportive of vaccine mandates and fully support Ken Burch's comments in this thread.

Fri, 2021-09-10 08:38

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Vote for the anti sciennce anti reality gamg of yahoos in the PPC

Fri, 2021-09-10 10:57

#10

Neocynic

Humans without human rights are mere animals and will act as such and should be treated as such. One fundamental human right, freedom of speech, is our canary in the coal mine with regards to matters of human rights and freedom. When it dies, the infection fatality rate for democracies is 100%.

It is a shame that freedom of speech for any debate regarding the issue of forced vaccinations for all is denied as we see here with some expressing shock and instinctual hostility that we are even having a discussion. Others respond here with un-nuanced talking points and silly comparisons rather than address the very serious, and very profound issues raised by the coming forced vaccinations of all.

The scientific debate has been squelched. Those who dare even raise reasonable issues, such as the societal cost/benefit ratios of some measures, are censored, demonized, fired, and as per the UoT email darkly suggests, "eliminated". The scientific debate has been eliminated, especially with respect to the simmering issue of the efficacy of natural immunity versus the vaccines and their continuing "boosts" (Four and more in Israel) . The chief cheerleader for current pollicy, Dr. Fauci, has been exposed regarding NIH funding for gain-of-function research at the Wuhan lab, to be a blatant deluded liar. It appears that the very same people (i.e. industry) who let loose this little "lab experiment" called COVID-19 on humanity are now suggesting a further "lab experiment" called mRNA vaccines. Indeed, the obvious inconsistencies of the "received opinion" regarding the severity of the disease, the death rate, the use or non-use of masks, vaccine immunity, skyrocketing suicide rates, cancelled cancer treatments, generalized financial ruin, etc. shows us that a real rational debate is called for.

People are naturally uncomfortable with comparisions with authoritarian dictatorial regimes of the past and their crimes. But for those who are concerned, who in good faith invite a debate, I suggest you read Hannah Arendt or Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn who tell in their own way how good people do bad things in the name of dogma, in the name of political compliance, and out of fear. Fear is certainly a salient feature infesting this discussion. How far are we from the witchhunts of Salem, the segregations of the South, indeed, the quarantine concentration camps from our recent past? These things do loom.

For those here who blindly support the forced vaccinations of all, given their likely "progressive" self-ennobling label, why when it comes to this issue, "My body, my choice" has now become "Your body, my choice"? Shall we have our debate?

Fri, 2021-09-10 10:23

(Reply to #10) #11

Douglas Fir Premier

Ken Burch wrote:

Refusing to vaccinate isn't political dissent- there isn't a political issue involved here. It's just public health- and there is nothing to debate on this.

While I'm more or less okay with vaccine mandates for the privilege of accessing non-essential services, I find it interesting that COVID vaccination has been cordoned off in this rare category of things that are supposedly so inherently obvious to all as to be declared 'not a political issue' and "nothing to debate". In fact, I find it beyond interesting. I think it's quite revealing.

Ken Burch wrote:

In a public health emergency, we all owe each other SOMETHING- in this case, basic human consideration and respect. Refusing to vaccinate is a display of disrespect to the entire human race, especially when coupled, as it very often is, with refusal to mask or socially distance.

Poverty. Racism. Mental health. Homelessness. Opioid overdoses. Loneliness. All of these have been called public health crises. In the cases above, what is it that we owe each other? What does "basic human consideration and respect" look like for the impoverished, the racialized, the mentally ill, the unhoused, the drug user, the isolated? Why are we nowhere near as emphatic about insisting that it's not only possible to address these crises, but that we all have a role to play in solving them? Especially when it often comes down to no more than a question of money and political will. Why are we so unwilling to hold each other accountable for our failures to protect public health when it comes to these issues than we are when it comes to the COVID vaccine?

Fri, 2021-09-10 11:09

#12

Neocynic

Those most virulent in their support for forced lockdowns, isolations, and vaccines, etc., are the least impacted. Hypocrisy be thy name and they are either cowards or criminals insofar as some lack the courage of their convictions to act in accordance (e.g. Obama's birthday party) and others who fear being convicted by their own professed beliefs (e.g. Pelosi's hair appointment). LOL! Methinks these people are both.

Fri, 2021-09-10 12:33

(Reply to #12) #13

eastnoireast

NorthReport wrote:

I can't believe we have a thread open devoted to this shit!

Ken Burch wrote:

Refusing to vaccinate isn't political dissent- there isn't a political issue involved here. It's just public health- and there is nothing to debate on this.

everything is political, including forcing people to have things they don't agree with or trust injected into their veins.

those that decry discussion (- on a forum for discussion -) << would appear to be >> fascists in training with weak arguments.

Ken Burch wrote:

The Gestapo focused on killing people. Making sure people are vaccinated is the OPPOSITE of killing people and therefore the opposite of anything remotely related to the Gestapo.

Stop insulting the victims of Naziism by falsely associating that ideology and its methods with sensible public health measures.

i had people who survived, and did not survive, the nazies. they would've told you, and i will tell you on their behalf, that the nazi's real focus, the real battlefield, was in the streets, in the polite discussions, in the segregation, in the buisness as usual, in the scapegoating, in the groupthink.

that makes everything else possible.

please stop insulting the victims of nazism by falsely associating your true-believer status with "THE TRUTH".

"never mind the minority. the majority will take care of the minority"

Ken Burch wrote:

The operative concept here is "your freedom ends at the tip of my nose". No one's "individual rights" include the right to expose others to contagion, which is what those who refuse to vaccinate are doing.

last time i checked, my veins are on my side of the tip of my nose.

the term "your personal freedom ends where mine begins" is more on point. 'cause then, there's gotta be a, ya know, like, discusson.

you do realize that god's chosen people, er, the vaccinated still catch, carry, and transmitt the virus?

note: the following is a whole bunch of straw arguments. none of these things are being proposed by anyone here, and you know it.

Ken Burch wrote:

In a public health emergency, we all owe each other SOMETHING- in this case, basic human consideration and respect. Refusing to vaccinate is a display of disrespect to the entire human race, especially when coupled, as it very often is, with refusal to mask or socially distance.

Freedom is not the right to be a selfish, inconsiderate jerk. It does not include the right to blast Nordic Death Metal or the greatest hits of The Mom and Dads at full volume on your stereo at 3 am if you live in an apartment building; it does not include the right to viciously heckle the comic at a nightclub; it does not include the right to fly a Nazi flag when your neighbors are Jewish, or gay or Roma, or the Confederate Battle Flag if you live in a Black neighborhood, OR to knowingly expose everyone else at the school you attend to the Covid virus by refusing to vaccinate.

i am astounded and appalled at the reptilian level of analysis and self-reflection displayed by so many.

Fri, 2021-09-10 12:41

#14

JKR

When the Gestapo eliminated people they shot them on the spot without having to offer even a reason. Using the term "Gestapo" for the response to the COVID-19 pandemic seems totally inappropriate. Pandemics historically have required strict public measures to protect public health and they will always be treated with strict measures to protect public health.

Fri, 2021-09-10 13:07

(Reply to #14) #15

Neocynic

JKR wrote:

When the Gestapo eliminated people they shot them on the spot without having to offer even a reason. Using the term "Gestapo" for the response to the COVID-19 pandemic seems totally inappropriate. Pandemics historically have required strict public measures to protect public health and they will always be treated with strict measures to protect public health.

"Shot on the spot".... at least you got that right. Have you got your shot? Or two? Or three? Or if in Isarel, Four? Again, refusing to address the merits of our concerns with mere simplistic talking points only aggravates the situation and does not advance the debate in fear of any truths being disclosed. Some people have the intelligence, honesty and morality of a concentration camp guard. "Vaccination Uber Alles, Herr Doktor Mengele!"

Fri, 2021-09-10 13:09

#16

NDPP

Posted this in the covid thread but perhaps it's useful here:

Thomas Frank: How liberals use Covid...

https://youtu.be/dQkWh87zZiY

Fri, 2021-09-10 13:24

#17

Neocynic

The last people to be trusted giving altruisitic advice is the American "anti-care for all" medical establishment. All those who now think smoking causes cancer would have been demonized as "conspiracy nuts" 50 years ago. All those who thought Thalidomide was dangerous as an unproven new medicine here in Canada were then "conspiracy nuts" and some of those who would have agreed with them then have now no arms to raise in agreement today. LOL! Blind unquestioning allegience to authority, any authority, is dangerous to your health.

Fri, 2021-09-10 13:29

(Reply to #17) #18

Douglas Fir Premier

NDPP wrote:

Posted this in the covid thread but perhaps it's useful here:

Thomas Frank: How liberals use Covid...

https://youtu.be/dQkWh87zZiY

Just finished watching. Thanks for posting it. I always enjoy hearing Thomas Frank's perspective.

Fri, 2021-09-10 15:00

(Reply to #18) #19

eastnoireast

Neocynic wrote:

JKR wrote:

When the Gestapo eliminated people they shot them on the spot without having to offer even a reason. Using the term "Gestapo" for the response to the COVID-19 pandemic seems totally inappropriate. Pandemics historically have required strict public measures to protect public health and they will always be treated with strict measures to protect public health.

"Shot on the spot".... at least you got that right. Have you got your shot? Or two? Or three? Or if in Isarel, Four? Again, refusing to address the merits of our concerns with mere simplistic talking points only aggravates the situation and does not advance the debate in fear of any truths being disclosed.

this part makes eminent sense.

Neocynic wrote:

Some people have the intelligence, honesty and morality of a concentration camp guard. "Vaccination Uber Alles, Herr Doktor Mengele!"

this part is gratuitous, flippant, and racist; for cheap affect.

my relatives were equally aghast at casual nazi-equation as they were at the type of behavior on display upthread.

sure makes me want to steer clear.

Fri, 2021-09-10 15:50

(Reply to #19) #20

JKR

Neocynic wrote:

Again, refusing to address the merits of our concerns with mere simplistic talking points only aggravates the situation and does not advance the debate in fear of any truths being disclosed. Some people have the intelligence, honesty and morality of a concentration camp guard. "Vaccination Uber Alles, Herr Doktor Mengele!"

It's hard to take your concerns seriously when you're telling the people you disagree with that they're like the "angel of death" Josef Mengele. What are your concerns about how we are dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic?

Fri, 2021-09-10 17:35

#21

Neocynic

Oh please, spare me the pearl-clutching over references to the Naziis. You should read those comments in context. Indeed, the "Nazi" reference for all of us under 4o simply means a short-hand reference to authoritarian and intolerant behaviours. Recent polls attest that for the majority of those under 40, they are not familiar with the actual facts concerning the term "Holocaust", and indeed, one in ten have never even heard of the term, -so much for American public education. I doubt very much if people started hyperventilating about Seinfeld with his hilarious "Soup Nazi" episode or the other one concerning him making out during a showing of Schindler's List. So let's not divert ourselves from the real issues facing the silent majority of Canadians who do not agree with a policy of forced vaccinations. Simply answer the question I posed: Why has "My body, my choice" now become "Your body, my choice"? Thank you.

Fri, 2021-09-10 17:32

(Reply to #21) #22

Ken Burch

Douglas Fir Premier wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Refusing to vaccinate isn't political dissent- there isn't a political issue involved here. It's just public health- and there is nothing to debate on this.

While I'm more or less okay with vaccine mandates for the privilege of accessing non-essential services, I find it interesting that COVID vaccination has been cordoned off in this rare category of things that are supposedly so inherently obvious to all as to be declared 'not a political issue' and "nothing to debate". In fact, I find it beyond interesting. I think it's quite revealing.

Ken Burch wrote:

In a public health emergency, we all owe each other SOMETHING- in this case, basic human consideration and respect. Refusing to vaccinate is a display of disrespect to the entire human race, especially when coupled, as it very often is, with refusal to mask or socially distance.

Poverty. Racism. Mental health. Homelessness. Opioid overdoses. Loneliness. All of these have been called public health crises. In the cases above, what is it that we owe each other? What does "basic human consideration and respect" look like for the impoverished, the racialized, the mentally ill, the unhoused, the drug user, the isolated? Why are we nowhere near as emphatic about insisting that it's not only possible to address these crises, but that we all have a role to play in solving them? Especially when it often comes down to no more than a question of money and political will. Why are we so unwilling to hold each other accountable for our failures to protect public health when it comes to these issues than we are when it comes to the COVID vaccine?

Why would you think I'd disagree with you on that? We all owe each other something in numerous areas of life.

Fri, 2021-09-10 17:42

(Reply to #22) #23

Ken Burch

Neocynic wrote:

Oh please, spare me the pearl-clutching over references to the Naziis. You should read those comments in context. Indeed, the "Nazi" reference for all of us under 4o simply means a short-hand reference to authoritarian and intolerant behaviours. Recent polls attest that for the majority of those under 40, they are not familiar with the actual facts concerning the term "Holocaust", and indeed, one in ten have never even heard of the term, -so much for American public education. I doubt very much if people started hyperventilating about Seinfeld with his hilarious "Soup Nazi" episode or the other one concerning him making out during a showing of Schindler's List. So let's not divert ourselves from the real issues facing the silent majority of Canadians who do not agree with a policy of forced vaccinations. Thank you.

The fact that people under 40 often haven't been taught about the reality of Naziism doesn't justify trivializing what Nazis and fascists did- or what neo-Nazis and neo-fascists on today's alt-right are trying to force us back to doing, as they sought to in the States on January 6th or are currently trying to do in Poland and Hungary(where they effectively hold state power) and Brazil(where the current president is trying to end democracy in his country and return it to a military dicatorship, as it was for nearly two decades) or what the state government in Texas is trying to impose on women.

It is obscene to compare efforts to make sure everyone is vaccinated against Covid- in a time when vaccines are the only effective means of preventing its spread, other than masking, social distancing and lockdowns- to the efforts by a regime in the 1940s, supported by most of the global Right in the name of "anticommunism", to eradicate everyone who wasn't an Aryan from the soil of Europe.

It is not acceptable to use the term "Nazi" simply to oppose something you don't want to do, something that is about preserving human lives rather than exterminating them.

And the fact that you are under 40 doesn't give you an excuse- any more than it's decent or acceptable to insult the millions of leftists Hitler slaughtered by claiming he was "a socialist" simply because he incorporated the "s word" into his right wing hate party's name out of opportunism.

Fri, 2021-09-10 17:53

(Reply to #23) #24

JKR

Neocynic wrote:

Simply answer the question I posed: Why has "My body, my choice" now become "Your body, my choice"? Thank you.

"My body, my choice" has not become "your body, my choice" because no one is being forced to get vaccinated. As you probably already know, you do not have to get vaccinated. You are free to live dangerously.

Fri, 2021-09-10 17:57

(Reply to #24) #25

Neocynic

JKR wrote:

It's hard to take your concerns seriously when you're telling the people you disagree with that they're like the "angel of death" Josef Mengele. What are your concerns about how we are dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic?

Don't put words in my mouth that weren't said. It was a comment made pursuant to a sentence which decried being blindly obedient to authority and was entirely appropriate regarding where that kind of thinking leads for "some people".

As for concerns, my chief complaint regards the outrageous and blatant censoorship of opinion. When you torture and imprison the language, as with people, you only cause it to become more radicalised and outspoken, at the expense of the truth. There is a vast body of scientific and well-qualified second suppressed opinions regarding the measures. Don't people always seek a second opinion when faced with significant medical advice affecting their lives? Apparently not in this case.

Secondly, it appears from recent experience in Israel, as documented in medical statistical research, those who have become naturally immune by way of prior infection, are 13 times less susceptible to renewed infection or to infect another than the vaccinated. The Israelis must be the most vaccinated population in the world. Forcing people who are naturally immune to undergo re-infection by way of vaccination is not justified by any benefit/risk analysis. In fact, vaccinating a naturally immune person poses greater risk to health than a re-infection. The ultimate unanswered question is: why do the truly vaccinated need be protected from the unvaccinated?

Finally, given an overall mortality rate of less than 0.03% as confirmed by the CDC, the overall damages caused by the lockdowns far outweigh any perceived benefits. You isolate the vulnerable from society, not society from the vulnerable. So in summary, I agree with my pro-choice abortion brothers and sisters, MY BODY, MY CHOICE.

Fri, 2021-09-10 17:56

#26

Ken Burch

Neocynic, why didn't you just title this "The University of Toronto Wants to Require All Students To Vaccinate- Here Are My Concerns"?

Why not just have that conversation rather than likening this to a nightmarish historic event UofT's vaccine policy has nothing in common with?

Fri, 2021-09-10 18:00

#27

JKR

Unvaccinated people 11 times more likely to die from COVID-19, CDC study shows; CBS News; September 10, 2021

----------------

Unvaccinated people were 11 times more likely to die from COVID-19 compared to those who were fully vaccinated, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported in a new study Friday, providing more evidence of the vaccines' effectiveness at preventing severe disease, even as protection from mild breakthrough cases appears to be waning in the face of the Delta variant.

"Looking at cases over the past two months when the Delta variant was the predominant variant circulating in this country, those who were unvaccinated were about four and a half times more likely to get COVID-19, over 10 times more likely to be hospitalized, and 11 times more likely to die from the disease," CDC Director Rochelle Walensky said at a briefing Friday.
----------------

Fri, 2021-09-10 18:11

(Reply to #27) #28

Neocynic

Ken Burch wrote:

Neocynic, why didn't you just title this "The University of Toronto Wants to Require All Students To Vaccinate- Here Are My Concerns"?

Why not just have that conversation rather than likening this to a nightmarish historic event UofT's vaccine policy has nothing in common with?

Per the authoritarian and dictatorial language of this edict issued to all employess, like myself: We will not bend in these rules. You will comply or you will be eliminated from the university community and you will be further ostracized from the greater community. Do what you are told.", the brutish and highly offensive nature of this order is reminiscent of a Gestapo interrogator and does not engender cooperation or discussion regarding the merits of forced vaccination. The last sentence addressed to the adult and presumably educated employees of UoT is beyond mere paternalism, it reeks of dictatorial hysteria and panic. Imagine a male superior addressing a female in such a manner, a white supervisor against a BIPOC! I hope you get my drift. As for nightmares, imagine undergoing forced vaccinatiion without informed consent, -and your children, if you legitimately believed it harmful to you and your family's health. This non-consensual approach will breed violence, on both sides.

Fri, 2021-09-10 18:16

#29

Neocynic

According to a report by Israel's Channel 13, Health Ministry data on the wave of COVID outbreaks which began this May show that Israelis with immunity from natural infection were far less likely to become infected again in comparison to Israelis who only had immunity via vaccination.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762

Fri, 2021-09-10 18:23

#30

Neocynic

As for the CDC.
OMG! People are dying in the ........ .00002's!
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html

Fri, 2021-09-10 18:26

(Reply to #30) #31

JKR

Neocynic wrote:
So in summary, I agree with my pro-choice abortion brothers and sisters, MY BODY, MY CHOICE.

You are free to choose to not get vaccinated or to get vaccinated. It's your choice.

Fri, 2021-09-10 18:40

(Reply to #31) #32

Neocynic

JKR wrote:

Neocynic wrote:
So in summary, I agree with my pro-choice abortion brothers and sisters, MY BODY, MY CHOICE.

You are free to choose to not get vaccinated or to get vaccinated. It's your choice.

You are being dishonest about the facts. No jab, no job. That is the essence of duress and compulsion for those of us not rich enough not to work. Indeed the trend is to exclude the non-vaccinated from the economy, as per recent comments made by Australian officials. When you exclude people from the social and economic life of a country, you may as well cut and paste this with the appropriate changes: “None but members of the nation may be citizens of the State. None but those of German blood may be members of the nation. No Jew, therefore, may be a member of the nation.” -Adolph Hitler

Fri, 2021-09-10 19:02

#33

Neocynic

Some science re the superiority of natural immunity versus vaccination:

"PCR cycle threshold (Ct) values were similar between both vaccinated and unvaccinated groups at diagnosis, but viral loads decreased faster in vaccinated individuals."

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v1

Fri, 2021-09-10 20:18

(Reply to #33) #34

Douglas Fir Premier

Ken Burch wrote:

Douglas Fir Premier wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Refusing to vaccinate isn't political dissent- there isn't a political issue involved here. It's just public health- and there is nothing to debate on this.

While I'm more or less okay with vaccine mandates for the privilege of accessing non-essential services, I find it interesting that COVID vaccination has been cordoned off in this rare category of things that are supposedly so inherently obvious to all as to be declared 'not a political issue' and "nothing to debate". In fact, I find it beyond interesting. I think it's quite revealing.

Ken Burch wrote:

In a public health emergency, we all owe each other SOMETHING- in this case, basic human consideration and respect. Refusing to vaccinate is a display of disrespect to the entire human race, especially when coupled, as it very often is, with refusal to mask or socially distance.

Poverty. Racism. Mental health. Homelessness. Opioid overdoses. Loneliness. All of these have been called public health crises. In the cases above, what is it that we owe each other? What does "basic human consideration and respect" look like for the impoverished, the racialized, the mentally ill, the unhoused, the drug user, the isolated? Why are we nowhere near as emphatic about insisting that it's not only possible to address these crises, but that we all have a role to play in solving them? Especially when it often comes down to no more than a question of money and political will. Why are we so unwilling to hold each other accountable for our failures to protect public health when it comes to these issues than we are when it comes to the COVID vaccine?

Why would you think I'd disagree with you on that? We all owe each other something in numerous areas of life.

[hopefully getting in before this thread gets shut down]

I didn't say I thought you would disagree with me. Those questions weren't intended to be rhetorical - although obviously you have no obligation to me to address any of them. It's just that I'm genuinely curious to know what it is you would say is owed to our fellow humans affected by these other pervasive public health crises. If getting the COVID vaccine is where we draw the line between the righteous people who are doing their part vs. the "selfish, inconsiderate jerks" who are 'disrespecting the entire human race'; where is that dividing line on these other issues?

I'll stick to the example that I know most intimately. From my decades of lived experience as both a disabled poor person, and as an organizer and activist on the Left, I can assure you that when it comes to poverty as a public health crisis; there very much is a debate.

When it would take an immediate increase of 24% just to restore my disability pension to the already wholly inadequate level it was set at when Mike Harris was in power, and the Ontario NDP unveil a platform that proposes to raise it by a mere 5%, how many 'allies' do you think I heard saying that anyone who accepts that and votes for Horwath is a selfish inconsiderate jerk? The answer would be zero. But of course, there are myriad rationalizations. "Anything more would scare away voters." "It's unrealistic to expect such a large increase to happen all at once." "If they did that, they'd never get a second term." "I sympathize, but there's no way we can afford it." "But what about all their other good policies?" "You're being too pure. Perfection is the enemy of the good." Et cetera, et cetera.

When campaigns for a liveable minimum wage repeatedly rebuff any and all overtures to broaden the movement and ally itself with calls for liveable social assistance rates (because low-wage workers are deemed to be relatable and sympathetic to the broad public, while people in receipt of social assistance are not), would it even cross your mind to characterize that as "disrespect to the entire human race"? Or is that a political issue that is open to debate?

When it comes to the public health crisis of poverty (or any of the other issues I listed, really), the concept of "your freedom ends at the tip of my nose" - or rather - your freedom to set your own political priorities and strategies ends at my right to food and shelter, is nowhere to be found.

What makes COVID unique among all these other crises that there can be no allowance for reasonable people to debate and disagree with each other about what it is that we owe each other?

Fri, 2021-09-10 20:47

#35

JKR

Doesn't this thread prove that we are free to debate and disagree about Covid?

Fri, 2021-09-10 20:51

#36

lagatta4

From the Canadian Federation of Nurses' Unions, a bit of sanity:

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox/FMfcgxwDsFdVMKTgVrggZkQWnJdDJLbd

I don't most people realise how very harsh public health measures were BEFORE the invention of vaccines. The famous works of Chaucer and Boccaccio have a background of the plague, as do the works of more recent authors. People locked out or unable to shelter simply died, horribly.

Fri, 2021-09-10 21:40

#37

NDPP

Gorilla Radio: with Chris Cook & John Helmer (radio)

https://gorillaradioblog.blogspot.com/2021/09/gorilla-radio-with-chris-c...

"...Today, John Helmer and the search for an inoculant to viral government malfeasance and the disastrous effects of hubris on the body politic.

'Right now this is a story with urgent parallels in the UK, US, Canada, Germany, Spain and France - in every country where democratic resistance to abuse of power in the pandemic has run into identical tactics of lawlessness and suffered the same fate...'

Public Health Enforcement in Sydney

https://youtu.be/dAJUSSDljGk

"The man in the handcuffs was arrested for 'not wearing a mask.'

https://youtu.be/dAJUSSD

Fri, 2021-09-10 20:57

(Reply to #37) #38

JKR

Neocynic wrote:

You are being dishonest about the facts. No jab, no job. That is the essence of duress and compulsion for those of us not rich enough not to work. Indeed the trend is to exclude the non-vaccinated from the economy, as per recent comments made by Australian officials. When you exclude people from the social and economic life of a country, you may as well cut and paste this with the appropriate changes: “None but members of the nation may be citizens of the State. None but those of German blood may be members of the nation. No Jew, therefore, may be a member of the nation.” -Adolph Hitler

Why do you think Canada and other countries have descended into a Hitleresque world?

It seems to me you are avoiding the simple fact that countries want to protect their citizens and public health care systems from the Covid virus. I think it's obvious that groups like Jewish people cannot be compared to the Covid virus for obvious reasons.

Fri, 2021-09-10 21:13

(Reply to #38) #39

Douglas Fir Premier

JKR wrote:

Doesn't this thread prove that we are free to debate and disagree about Covid?

That's what I'm here for. But then, I'm not the one who said:

Quote:
there isn't a political issue involved here. It's just public health- and there is nothing to debate on this.

And I said "reasonable" people. Maybe it's just me, but I don't consider 'there are only two sides to this... my side, and the selfish inconsiderate jerks who disrespect the human race' to be much of a reasonable debate.

Fri, 2021-09-10 22:12

#40

JKR

I think almost every issue can be viewed at least partially through a political lense. We live in a classist, racist, sexist, ableist, consumerist society, so everything we do will tend to be tarnished with those and other failings. Covid is no different. Nonetheless Covid is also a public health issue.

Fri, 2021-09-10 22:29

#41

kropotkin1951

WTF is this thread about. Canadian employment law says my employer can fire me anytime he wants and merely give me sufficient notice or pay in lieu of the notice, no reason needed. It derives not from Nazism but from our British master-servant legal precedents.

I personally think that employees in Canada do not have enough rights, at the best of times, but it sure has nothing to do with Hitler.

Sat, 2021-09-11 14:21

#42

MegB

Closing and giving Neocynic the boot. Because I'm a pro-vaccination fascist.

Topic locked